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lewmonst

NO on Prop 8 (California)

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I am completely against people that go out and picket and push their veiws. I find it offensive when religious people try to push their morals onto others,


Even when protesting/picketing at abortion clinics?



yes.


I completely agree with you Conundrm....
The question was directed at Chadkal.



While agreeing with you I have to ask a question.

Would you feel the same about those who try to rip what is moral away from those who think it is important?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Gays being able to marry or not makes no difference to me, I am just trying to get some sort of logical answer as to WHY religious opposes same sex marriage so much and why. Not just a "because it's reserved for man and woman" but WHY it's for man and woman only. I can't seem to get a straight answer (no pun intended).

That said, and to answer your question, I would not have a "problem" per se, but I would not agree with not calling it marriage. Saying you're the same, but refusing to give the same name, isn't really the same is it?



Hmm, If someone has the same rights I would see it as the same as far as the law goes.

But I have a hard time understanding why someone would care? (really I dont)

If someone really thinks about it there is only one reason to call it marriage today. I mean if gays are giving the same legal standing (as I have stated I think they should have) why is it so important to call it marriage? In todays climate regarding those of religion, and if you take the time to think about it, the reason will show itself. And if the reason I am thinking of is the only reason, who is the one (group) being unreasonable or doing the attacking of something that has existed for centuries?



I see where you are coming from, but it still is not answering the question I have been asking throughout the entire post; and that is: Why is marriage considered only between a man and a woman. (I know you said you don't know already).

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Gays being able to marry or not makes no difference to me, I am just trying to get some sort of logical answer as to WHY religious opposes same sex marriage so much and why. Not just a "because it's reserved for man and woman" but WHY it's for man and woman only. I can't seem to get a straight answer (no pun intended).

That said, and to answer your question, I would not have a "problem" per se, but I would not agree with not calling it marriage. Saying you're the same, but refusing to give the same name, isn't really the same is it?



Hmm, If someone has the same rights I would see it as the same as far as the law goes.

But I have a hard time understanding why someone would care? (really I dont)

If someone really thinks about it there is only one reason to call it marriage today. I mean if gays are giving the same legal standing (as I have stated I think they should have) why is it so important to call it marriage? In todays climate regarding those of religion, and if you take the time to think about it, the reason will show itself. And if the reason I am thinking of is the only reason, who is the one (group) being unreasonable or doing the attacking of something that has existed for centuries?



I see where you are coming from, but it still is not answering the question I have been asking throughout the entire post; and that is: Why is marriage considered only between a man and a woman. (I know you said you don't know already).



It was and is definded in the bible. That is why I consider the attempt to change an attack or religion.
(so some degree I am playing devils advocate here becasue I am not really that religious)
If that is a definition that is defined in the Jude-Christian texts why would governement want to make laws otherwise IF they give others the same rights but under a different name?

The perspectives of both sides I understand. I think it boils down to motive. Do you have an idea of motive? For either side?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Ministers, Preachers, scabs, welfare recipients, assholes, and anyone ELSE that doesn't pay taxes??



wait, wait, wait.

You mean assholes don't pay taxes?

SIGN ME UP!


I think I can qualify!;)
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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It was and is definded in the bible.



Can you give me said definition?



Not leter verse or line. No
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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It was and is definded in the bible.



Can you give me said definition?



Not leter verse or line. No


Why should our laws have ANYTHING to do with the christian bible?
"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

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Doesn't the bible also say things like wives must obey their husbands, and they're suppose to be the husbands helper?

I don't recall seeing religious people up in arms when we stopped following that crock of shit. :P

I think it also talks about premarital sex and the like - not many people follow that either.

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It was and is definded in the bible.



Can you give me said definition?



Not leter verse or line. No


Why should our laws have ANYTHING to do with the christian bible?



I have only state that marriage as a holy union has been recognized as a legal bond. The term marriage has religious meaning. In many religions not just christian. For what ever reason it is. But, why should a law now be created that goes against any religion?

In any event, that is not what Conundrum and I have been speaking to.....
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Doesn't the bible also say things like wives must obey their husbands, and they're suppose to be the husbands helper?

I don't recall seeing religious people up in arms when we stopped following that crock of shit. :P

I think it also talks about premarital sex and the like - not many people follow that either.



What is followed and what is perscribed is two different things;)
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Doesn't the bible also say things like wives must obey their husbands, and they're suppose to be the husbands helper?

I don't recall seeing religious people up in arms when we stopped following that crock of shit. :P

I think it also talks about premarital sex and the like - not many people follow that either.



What is followed and what is perscribed is two different things;)


Absolutely, which is the biggest reason I do not agree with the YES vote. People like to pick and choose what they feel like following in order to satisfy their needs and wants - which I think is silly.

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Give me an example.



This topic is an example.

There are those that think marriage between men and women vs two of the same sex is a moral issue.

So, under the law, who should be disapointed?
Those who think is it a moral issue or those who think that morality should be taken from them?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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Doesn't the bible also say things like wives must obey their husbands, and they're suppose to be the husbands helper?

I don't recall seeing religious people up in arms when we stopped following that crock of shit. :P

I think it also talks about premarital sex and the like - not many people follow that either.



What is followed and what is perscribed is two different things;)


Absolutely, which is the biggest reason I do not agree with the YES vote. People like to pick and choose what they feel like following in order to satisfy their needs and wants - which I think is silly.


Cant that be said for either side?
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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absloutely,... does this suprise you Steve


No.
Windcatcher once claimed that her father was arrested for protesting an abortion clinic. (I found that hard to believe, given that it's not illegal, but I digress...)
I was just wondering about the different views on this within the religious, and how it might affect even members of the same family.
I'm getting pretty far afield...so back on topic.

I think that Homosexuals should be allowed to marry.
I think that if christians were truly adhering to the teachings of "Jesus", prop 8 would have failed.

I see a lot of christians dancing around the real issue here with arguments over semantics, instead of owning up to their true views on the subject.

I think that homosexuals are born homosexuals, and are not homosexual by choice, anymore than I'm heterosexual by choice. Consequently, I think christians who think they can "fix" homosexuality are idiots.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

I don't think that homosexuals, as a whole, think that people who voted for prop 8 did so out of "love" regardless of what those voters claim.

As with all my opinions, other people's mileage may vary....
"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

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I think that if christians were truly adhering to the teachings of "Jesus", prop 8 would have failed.



I think that the LDS church is not even remotely "christian" in the commonly understood sense of the word. Are you familiar with their teachings?

Pinning this on "christians" is not very fair, since the primary proponents (the LDS church) aren't actually a christian denomination.
-- Tom Aiello

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SnakeRiverBASE.com

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I think that if christians were truly adhering to the teachings of "Jesus", prop 8 would have failed.



I think that the LDS church is not even remotely "christian" in the commonly understood sense of the word. Are you familiar with their teachings?

Pinning this on "christians" is not very fair, since the primary proponents (the LDS church) aren't actually a christian denomination.



Regardless of what you think, THEY claim that they are.
From the LDS public affairs office:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TpA_wt-ul0
What's the difference, anyway? People are using their own mythology to deny other people rights/priveledges that they already enjoy.
"Science, logic and reason will fly you to the moon. Religion will fly you into buildings."
"Because figuring things out is always better than making shit up."

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It was and is definded in the bible.



Can you give me said definition?



Not leter verse or line. No


Why should our laws have ANYTHING to do with the christian bible?



I have only state that marriage as a holy union has been recognized as a legal bond. The term marriage has religious meaning. In many religions not just christian. For what ever reason it is. But, why should a law now be created that goes against any religion?



We should be clear that in the case of Prop 8, we are not attempting to pass a law that is contrary to a religion; we are attempting to strike down an amendment that would deprive citizens of their rights.

You have several times suggested that it is the use of the word "marriage" that you're opposed to. You are quite clear and just in saying that you think same sex couples should have the same legal rights that marriage provides. This we can agree on.

You however, and correct me if I'm wrong, see labeling the legal union of same sex couples as a marriage as an attack on your (and others') religious tradition. I'm here to tell you that while this offends you, it is not intentional (at least on my part) but a side effect of insuring the rights of homosexuals that wish to marry. What right you may ask? The right to their religious beliefs. It is their right, and yours, to believe, or not, that they are married in the eyes of god if that so suits them. Just as you have every right to believe that they are not married, they have every right to believe that they are. It is unfortunate that you find this offensive, but the law says that all people are provided equal protection of their right to freedom of religion.

Are there some people out there that wish to abolish religion entirely? Yes. Are there asshole, closed minded atheists? Yes. That is part of the reason that I don't call myself an atheist even thought most theists would see me as such. I do believe that there are blowhards on both sides of every issue, but this doesn't mean that clarifying that the law provides marriage for same sex couples is an attack on your religion.

Please correct me if I've misstated your position. I'm trying to respond to what I hear you saying.
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I think that if christians were truly adhering to the teachings of "Jesus", prop 8 would have failed.



I think that the LDS church is not even remotely "christian" in the commonly understood sense of the word. Are you familiar with their teachings?

Pinning this on "christians" is not very fair, since the primary proponents (the LDS church) aren't actually a christian denomination.



True

In CA gays are blaming blacks as much as the churches
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

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