JohnDeere 0 #26 October 21, 2008 You handled it very good!!!! (flying and warning) Anybody who gives you shit sucks Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hcsvader 1 #27 October 21, 2008 Also lets not forget to look for traffic if crossing a taxiway or runway!Have you seen my pants? it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream >:) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #28 October 21, 2008 QuoteYou're the one flying the canopy. Don't hit people when you land. You are certainly capable of making a small course correction at 100ish feet to avoid someone. However, if at 310 jumps you cannot do this, please quit jumping now as you are a danger to everyone else around you under canopy. In the same light, it is up for everyone else to remember that your skydive is not over until you are back in the hangar, since you never know when someone who does not understand how to fly a parachute may come in and hit you as they land. I disagree, when you land you are standing in the middle of a road. it is far easier and safer for the person on the ground to take one or 2 steps to the side to avoid being hit. Pay attention to your surroundings when you collapse your canopy and dont frigg about in the midde of the road. If you're silly enough to stand in the path of a moving vehicle prepare to get hit.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #29 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteYou're the one flying the canopy. Don't hit people when you land. You are certainly capable of making a small course correction at 100ish feet to avoid someone. However, if at 310 jumps you cannot do this, please quit jumping now as you are a danger to everyone else around you under canopy. In the same light, it is up for everyone else to remember that your skydive is not over until you are back in the hangar, since you never know when someone who does not understand how to fly a parachute may come in and hit you as they land. I disagree, when you land you are standing in the middle of a road. it is far easier and safer for the person on the ground to take one or 2 steps to the side to avoid being hit. Pay attention to your surroundings when you collapse your canopy and dont frigg about in the midde of the road. If you're silly enough to stand in the path of a moving vehicle prepare to get hit. Feel free to disagree, but at the same time, feel free to be wrong. As I said, it is the responsibility of both people to avoid the collision. Once on the ground, you are still in danger from idiots that do not know how to fly their canopies, so you need to keep looking around, especially before you start moving. However, if you are on a straight in pattern, and too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area, ESPESCIALLY one as large as the OP showed in his video, then do us all a favor and learn how to fly a canopy and not endanger people on the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #30 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuote However, if you are on a straight in pattern, and too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area, ESPESCIALLY one as large as the OP showed in his video, then do us all a favor and learn how to fly a canopy and not endanger people on the ground. Conversely if you are to stupid to open your eyes and take one step to the side, purhaps walking the streets un-chaperoned is not wiseYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #31 October 21, 2008 QuoteAlso lets not forget to look for traffic if crossing a taxiway or runway! Ya, ya ,ya. Go ahead rub it in. Rob is just saying that 'cause I wandered in front of a taxiing aircraft on the weekend (not that close, but dumb just the same). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydude89 0 #32 October 21, 2008 Hey Andrew u never did anything like that when u were my instructor. BTW You trained me in pittmeadows back in 97. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #33 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteYou're the one flying the canopy. Don't hit people when you land. You are certainly capable of making a small course correction at 100ish feet to avoid someone. However, if at 310 jumps you cannot do this, please quit jumping now as you are a danger to everyone else around you under canopy. In the same light, it is up for everyone else to remember that your skydive is not over until you are back in the hangar, since you never know when someone who does not understand how to fly a parachute may come in and hit you as they land. I disagree, when you land you are standing in the middle of a road. it is far easier and safer for the person on the ground to take one or 2 steps to the side to avoid being hit. Pay attention to your surroundings when you collapse your canopy and dont frigg about in the midde of the road. If you're silly enough to stand in the path of a moving vehicle prepare to get hit. If you're outside the swoop lane and pea gravel pit, you're off the road. It's like riding on a bicycle path and getting hit by a car (been there, done that). If you can't avoid hitting people who aren't moving you shouldn't be jumping that canopy. Planes around the landing area, wind socks, trees, etc. NEVER move. People on the ground have no way of knowing if you are going to avoid them or if they're going to move the same direction you are, so the accepted practice is for them to STAND STILL. Your first responsibility is to avoid them. Second is to avoid breaking yourself. Last is to look pretty when landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites aresye 0 #34 October 21, 2008 There was a hairy instance at SDSD this past weekend. I was boarding the plane on the runway, and there were 1 or 2 more canopies coming down from the previous load, as 2 planes were running that day. One guy was on final, heading straight for the prop of the running otter! Luckily he landed about 25ft in front of the plane, but it was scary to watch nonetheless. I'd take a crosswind landing over a prop hit anyday.Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #35 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteYour first responsibility is to avoid them. Second is to avoid breaking yourself. Last is to look pretty when landing. Sorry but my FIRST responsblitiy is to ME and MY safety.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phantomII 36 #36 October 21, 2008 There are one or two more lessons we can learn form this landing. Staying alert on the ground is one that was already mentioned. The video shows that you choose your final right into the middle of that group. That puts you in a position where you have to rely on others not to make a mistake. It 's easy to avoid that situation. We all know how excited we can be after a jump. So if we plan for small mistakes by others we won't find ourselves in a corner where it gets sticky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #37 October 21, 2008 QuoteHowever, if you are on a straight in pattern, and too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area, ESPESCIALLY one as large as the OP showed in his video, then do us all a favor and learn how to fly a canopy and not endanger people on the ground. What in the world is the matter with you guys? All you guys blaming or pointing fingers at Bill are missing the boat. You have no freakin' clue as to who it is coming in behind you (think first-jump student). No matter what you are doing out there, if you are too stupid to look around and watch out for those coming behind you...stay in the freakin' hangar out of the way. YOU are the idiot that will be screaming about "it was HIS fault" when you get hit. You expect a pilot to crash himself trying to avoid your dumbass walking around in the LZ? What? You think the LZ is a chat room or something? Like Squeek said...my first responsibility in this situation is to myself. You walk out in front of me and I can't avoid without getting hurt? Well, then I'm takin' you with me. God, I can't believe some of the idiocy some people post. Blindly stand there, walk around out there make a target of yourself if you like. Please don't cry too hard when you get hit. By your way of thinking we maybe should let the tandem families wander all over the LZ...after all, it's the pilot who should be avoiding them, right? Yes, a decent pilot probably could avoid you. Bill did it rather nicely, don't you think? Depending on every one of them to be a "decent" pilot and avoid your blind ass is a little much, eh? <> You wanna mindlessly flame somebody? Flame me, not Bill. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #38 October 21, 2008 Good video. It looks like you had your landing location/run-out selected and you were being pressured by the guy walking on the left. Your response was to call out to him, and his response was to stop and give you a space to land. It all worked out well, and it looks like everybody did pretty much what they should. Your original point was that we need to be aware of what we are doing in the landing area after we land. Often we are so excited about the jump that we relax our guard, and you wanted to remind everybody that the action of a jumper on the ground can have an effect on an approaching jumper, and vice versa. I think you are right on here. When I land I immediately turn and face downwind to see the approaching canopies. Then I lift my frap hat on one side so I can hear better, and stow my breaks while staying put. Once I have identified every approaching canopy and I am sure I’m not a factor I will walk back to the packing area while maintaining awareness of the approach zone. If there is any doubt I stay in position so as not to be a moving target, or give an approaching jumper the impression that I am unaware. And I want to be looking in his direction, making eye contact if possible, so he knows I see him. I have seen some nasty collisions between landing and landed jumpers. The jumper on the ground has more options, and should yield to the flying jumper, but that doesn’t always happen. Too often the landed jumper isn’t paying any attention, or isn’t even looking in the direction of the approaching traffic. This stuff is all pretty easy to handle at a small Cessna DZ, but the landing zone is much more dynamic at a large drop zone. This is worth thinking about, and worth discussing, especially for jumpers transitioning from small DZ’s to larger ones. Thanks for opening the discussion topic.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites zoobrothertom 5 #39 October 21, 2008 You did fine. ____________________________________ I'm back in the USA!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #40 October 21, 2008 I keep waiting for one of the tandem students at my dz to get plowed! We have one tandem master than unhooks and lets them run off across the dz to their screaming friends. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #41 October 21, 2008 Quote There are one or two more lessons we can learn form this landing. Staying alert on the ground is one that was already mentioned. The video shows that you choose your final right into the middle of that group. That puts you in a position where you have to rely on others not to make a mistake. It 's easy to avoid that situation. We all know how excited we can be after a jump. So if we plan for small mistakes by others we won't find ourselves in a corner where it gets sticky. Yes I agree and I pointed that out in the first post too. My mistake was choosing to land in/around the middle of that mess and I fixed it on later jumps!! And most of the time I land out or further away. I think the video shows it was not super close here either... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #42 October 21, 2008 Quote I keep waiting for one of the tandem students at my dz to get plowed! We have one tandem master than unhooks and lets them run off across the dz to their screaming friends. Our tandem instructors keep the student with them and then ask them to help him carry the gear back in. Works great and they feel like they are part of the action. Also works great for their friends and family to take pictures. Those good action shots. We also have ropes and nobody is allowed past those unless your staff or an up jumper out helping to shag tandems. Period. Once in a while people get out there, but for the most part it works very well and everybody respects that system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #43 October 21, 2008 I think that the people arguing about standing still vs. moving are arguing 2 different scenarios. 1. If you are in the landing area, face the canopies that are landing, and stand the fuck still. That way, landing jumpers can aim for clear areas that are actually there without worrying about who's going to be walking where in another few seconds. 2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. I guess option number three is that you are totally clueless to the world around you, whether standing still or walking, and not keeping an eye on other traffic, in which case, you probably deserve to be taken out for sheer stupidity To the OP... looks like you did a nice job, didn't look like a target fixation issue, you handled it well, other guy stopped. It didn't look like a close call (but probably felt like it at the time that it happened). To prevent it, land in a more open area next time instead of threading a needle between two jumpers on the ground, and hopefully guy on the ground learned his lesson about paying attention to landing traffic. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyhi 24 #44 October 21, 2008 Quote Why do people ASSume that I must have been swooping... Because the perception of what happened was that it was a bad thing, and everyone knows the wellhead from which all evil springs is the swoop community. Look at history. Judas Iscariot, Adolf Hitler, and this guy all reported to be frustrated swoopers. The Unaswooper, Vlad the Inflailer, and Chow 'n Fly, all had no outlet to get their swoop on and had to resort to other pursuits. Just like the housing downturn, the financial crisis, and the movie Gigli, swooping was involved, we just haven't figured out how, yet...Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites d123 1 #45 October 21, 2008 I agree with Squeak 100%! Walking accuracy is a LOT BETTER than landing accuracy! Think of all those accuracy chugs/swooping chugs done and watch. Everybody gets the beer by walking to it. Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wolfriverjoe 1,340 #46 October 21, 2008 Quote QuoteHowever, if you are on a straight in pattern, and too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area, ESPESCIALLY one as large as the OP showed in his video, then do us all a favor and learn how to fly a canopy and not endanger people on the ground. What in the world is the matter with you guys? All you guys blaming or pointing fingers at Bill are missing the boat. ... YOU are the idiot that will be screaming about "it was HIS fault" when you get hit. You expect a pilot to crash himself trying to avoid your dumbass walking around in the LZ? What? You think the LZ is a chat room or something? Like Squeek said...my first responsibility in this situation is to myself. You walk out in front of me and I can't avoid without getting hurt? Well, then I'm takin' you with me. God, I can't believe some of the idiocy some people post. Blindly stand there, walk around out there make a target of yourself if you like. Please don't cry too hard when you get hit. ..Yes, a decent pilot probably could avoid you. Bill did it rather nicely, don't you think? Depending on every one of them to be a "decent" pilot and avoid your blind ass is a little much, eh? <> You wanna mindlessly flame somebody? Flame me, not Bill. Nice rant. Hit a lot of good points right on the head. BTW - FAR 91.67 (f) "Aircraft while on final approach to land, or while landing, have the right of way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface". We aren't airplanes, but i would think the rules still apply. Right of way doesn't make you heal any faster, but gives you right to yell a little."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #47 October 21, 2008 Good point! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #48 October 21, 2008 Quote2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. In general, I agree. However, I disagree that one's reaction upon realizing an imminent collision should be dodging to one side or the other. We teach canopy pilots to make small turns to one side or the oher to avoid last minute obstacles, so you may end up juking left just as the pilot jukes left, too. If you think someeone is going to hit you, drop to the ground in place, brace for impact, and cover your head. Chances are they'll either go around you, or go over you. Leaving your helmet on until you get out of the landing area might be a good idea, too. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #49 October 21, 2008 Backing the original poster ... Dumbest thing I ever saw on a DZ ... I was the last one down - with my tandem student - predictable rectangular landing pattern aimed at pea gravel bowl. After I set up on final, three (recently landed) jumpers walked across the edge of the bowl (90 degrees to my final approach), blissfully unaware of other canopies landing. I made a small turn to land behind them, then made the mistake of yelling "HEADS UP!" One guy promptly reversed course to fill in the gap I had just turned towards. This forced me to make a second low altitude turn, which concluded with a late flare and bruised knee. Then he wondered why I yelled at him?????? Moral of the story: keep your eyes moving after landing. If some one is landing close to you, stand still. If some one is landing really close to you: crouch down! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #50 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteYour first responsibility is to avoid them. Second is to avoid breaking yourself. Last is to look pretty when landing. Sorry but my FIRST responsblitiy is to ME and MY safety. Only when you limit yourself to making solo jumps into empy landing areas. Accepted pracice is for the people in the landing area to get out of the pea gravel or swoop course and STAND STILL. By doing something inherently incompatable with that, you're creating an accident waiting to happen. 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Andrewwhyte 1 #31 October 21, 2008 QuoteAlso lets not forget to look for traffic if crossing a taxiway or runway! Ya, ya ,ya. Go ahead rub it in. Rob is just saying that 'cause I wandered in front of a taxiing aircraft on the weekend (not that close, but dumb just the same). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydude89 0 #32 October 21, 2008 Hey Andrew u never did anything like that when u were my instructor. BTW You trained me in pittmeadows back in 97. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #33 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteYou're the one flying the canopy. Don't hit people when you land. You are certainly capable of making a small course correction at 100ish feet to avoid someone. However, if at 310 jumps you cannot do this, please quit jumping now as you are a danger to everyone else around you under canopy. In the same light, it is up for everyone else to remember that your skydive is not over until you are back in the hangar, since you never know when someone who does not understand how to fly a parachute may come in and hit you as they land. I disagree, when you land you are standing in the middle of a road. it is far easier and safer for the person on the ground to take one or 2 steps to the side to avoid being hit. Pay attention to your surroundings when you collapse your canopy and dont frigg about in the midde of the road. If you're silly enough to stand in the path of a moving vehicle prepare to get hit. If you're outside the swoop lane and pea gravel pit, you're off the road. It's like riding on a bicycle path and getting hit by a car (been there, done that). If you can't avoid hitting people who aren't moving you shouldn't be jumping that canopy. Planes around the landing area, wind socks, trees, etc. NEVER move. People on the ground have no way of knowing if you are going to avoid them or if they're going to move the same direction you are, so the accepted practice is for them to STAND STILL. Your first responsibility is to avoid them. Second is to avoid breaking yourself. Last is to look pretty when landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aresye 0 #34 October 21, 2008 There was a hairy instance at SDSD this past weekend. I was boarding the plane on the runway, and there were 1 or 2 more canopies coming down from the previous load, as 2 planes were running that day. One guy was on final, heading straight for the prop of the running otter! Luckily he landed about 25ft in front of the plane, but it was scary to watch nonetheless. I'd take a crosswind landing over a prop hit anyday.Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #35 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteYour first responsibility is to avoid them. Second is to avoid breaking yourself. Last is to look pretty when landing. Sorry but my FIRST responsblitiy is to ME and MY safety.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phantomII 36 #36 October 21, 2008 There are one or two more lessons we can learn form this landing. Staying alert on the ground is one that was already mentioned. The video shows that you choose your final right into the middle of that group. That puts you in a position where you have to rely on others not to make a mistake. It 's easy to avoid that situation. We all know how excited we can be after a jump. So if we plan for small mistakes by others we won't find ourselves in a corner where it gets sticky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #37 October 21, 2008 QuoteHowever, if you are on a straight in pattern, and too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area, ESPESCIALLY one as large as the OP showed in his video, then do us all a favor and learn how to fly a canopy and not endanger people on the ground. What in the world is the matter with you guys? All you guys blaming or pointing fingers at Bill are missing the boat. You have no freakin' clue as to who it is coming in behind you (think first-jump student). No matter what you are doing out there, if you are too stupid to look around and watch out for those coming behind you...stay in the freakin' hangar out of the way. YOU are the idiot that will be screaming about "it was HIS fault" when you get hit. You expect a pilot to crash himself trying to avoid your dumbass walking around in the LZ? What? You think the LZ is a chat room or something? Like Squeek said...my first responsibility in this situation is to myself. You walk out in front of me and I can't avoid without getting hurt? Well, then I'm takin' you with me. God, I can't believe some of the idiocy some people post. Blindly stand there, walk around out there make a target of yourself if you like. Please don't cry too hard when you get hit. By your way of thinking we maybe should let the tandem families wander all over the LZ...after all, it's the pilot who should be avoiding them, right? Yes, a decent pilot probably could avoid you. Bill did it rather nicely, don't you think? Depending on every one of them to be a "decent" pilot and avoid your blind ass is a little much, eh? <> You wanna mindlessly flame somebody? Flame me, not Bill. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #38 October 21, 2008 Good video. It looks like you had your landing location/run-out selected and you were being pressured by the guy walking on the left. Your response was to call out to him, and his response was to stop and give you a space to land. It all worked out well, and it looks like everybody did pretty much what they should. Your original point was that we need to be aware of what we are doing in the landing area after we land. Often we are so excited about the jump that we relax our guard, and you wanted to remind everybody that the action of a jumper on the ground can have an effect on an approaching jumper, and vice versa. I think you are right on here. When I land I immediately turn and face downwind to see the approaching canopies. Then I lift my frap hat on one side so I can hear better, and stow my breaks while staying put. Once I have identified every approaching canopy and I am sure I’m not a factor I will walk back to the packing area while maintaining awareness of the approach zone. If there is any doubt I stay in position so as not to be a moving target, or give an approaching jumper the impression that I am unaware. And I want to be looking in his direction, making eye contact if possible, so he knows I see him. I have seen some nasty collisions between landing and landed jumpers. The jumper on the ground has more options, and should yield to the flying jumper, but that doesn’t always happen. Too often the landed jumper isn’t paying any attention, or isn’t even looking in the direction of the approaching traffic. This stuff is all pretty easy to handle at a small Cessna DZ, but the landing zone is much more dynamic at a large drop zone. This is worth thinking about, and worth discussing, especially for jumpers transitioning from small DZ’s to larger ones. Thanks for opening the discussion topic.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites zoobrothertom 5 #39 October 21, 2008 You did fine. ____________________________________ I'm back in the USA!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #40 October 21, 2008 I keep waiting for one of the tandem students at my dz to get plowed! We have one tandem master than unhooks and lets them run off across the dz to their screaming friends. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #41 October 21, 2008 Quote There are one or two more lessons we can learn form this landing. Staying alert on the ground is one that was already mentioned. The video shows that you choose your final right into the middle of that group. That puts you in a position where you have to rely on others not to make a mistake. It 's easy to avoid that situation. We all know how excited we can be after a jump. So if we plan for small mistakes by others we won't find ourselves in a corner where it gets sticky. Yes I agree and I pointed that out in the first post too. My mistake was choosing to land in/around the middle of that mess and I fixed it on later jumps!! And most of the time I land out or further away. I think the video shows it was not super close here either... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bill_K 0 #42 October 21, 2008 Quote I keep waiting for one of the tandem students at my dz to get plowed! We have one tandem master than unhooks and lets them run off across the dz to their screaming friends. Our tandem instructors keep the student with them and then ask them to help him carry the gear back in. Works great and they feel like they are part of the action. Also works great for their friends and family to take pictures. Those good action shots. We also have ropes and nobody is allowed past those unless your staff or an up jumper out helping to shag tandems. Period. Once in a while people get out there, but for the most part it works very well and everybody respects that system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #43 October 21, 2008 I think that the people arguing about standing still vs. moving are arguing 2 different scenarios. 1. If you are in the landing area, face the canopies that are landing, and stand the fuck still. That way, landing jumpers can aim for clear areas that are actually there without worrying about who's going to be walking where in another few seconds. 2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. I guess option number three is that you are totally clueless to the world around you, whether standing still or walking, and not keeping an eye on other traffic, in which case, you probably deserve to be taken out for sheer stupidity To the OP... looks like you did a nice job, didn't look like a target fixation issue, you handled it well, other guy stopped. It didn't look like a close call (but probably felt like it at the time that it happened). To prevent it, land in a more open area next time instead of threading a needle between two jumpers on the ground, and hopefully guy on the ground learned his lesson about paying attention to landing traffic. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyhi 24 #44 October 21, 2008 Quote Why do people ASSume that I must have been swooping... Because the perception of what happened was that it was a bad thing, and everyone knows the wellhead from which all evil springs is the swoop community. Look at history. Judas Iscariot, Adolf Hitler, and this guy all reported to be frustrated swoopers. The Unaswooper, Vlad the Inflailer, and Chow 'n Fly, all had no outlet to get their swoop on and had to resort to other pursuits. Just like the housing downturn, the financial crisis, and the movie Gigli, swooping was involved, we just haven't figured out how, yet...Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites d123 1 #45 October 21, 2008 I agree with Squeak 100%! Walking accuracy is a LOT BETTER than landing accuracy! Think of all those accuracy chugs/swooping chugs done and watch. Everybody gets the beer by walking to it. Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wolfriverjoe 1,340 #46 October 21, 2008 Quote QuoteHowever, if you are on a straight in pattern, and too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area, ESPESCIALLY one as large as the OP showed in his video, then do us all a favor and learn how to fly a canopy and not endanger people on the ground. What in the world is the matter with you guys? All you guys blaming or pointing fingers at Bill are missing the boat. ... YOU are the idiot that will be screaming about "it was HIS fault" when you get hit. You expect a pilot to crash himself trying to avoid your dumbass walking around in the LZ? What? You think the LZ is a chat room or something? Like Squeek said...my first responsibility in this situation is to myself. You walk out in front of me and I can't avoid without getting hurt? Well, then I'm takin' you with me. God, I can't believe some of the idiocy some people post. Blindly stand there, walk around out there make a target of yourself if you like. Please don't cry too hard when you get hit. ..Yes, a decent pilot probably could avoid you. Bill did it rather nicely, don't you think? Depending on every one of them to be a "decent" pilot and avoid your blind ass is a little much, eh? <> You wanna mindlessly flame somebody? Flame me, not Bill. Nice rant. Hit a lot of good points right on the head. BTW - FAR 91.67 (f) "Aircraft while on final approach to land, or while landing, have the right of way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface". We aren't airplanes, but i would think the rules still apply. Right of way doesn't make you heal any faster, but gives you right to yell a little."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #47 October 21, 2008 Good point! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DanG 1 #48 October 21, 2008 Quote2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. In general, I agree. However, I disagree that one's reaction upon realizing an imminent collision should be dodging to one side or the other. We teach canopy pilots to make small turns to one side or the oher to avoid last minute obstacles, so you may end up juking left just as the pilot jukes left, too. If you think someeone is going to hit you, drop to the ground in place, brace for impact, and cover your head. Chances are they'll either go around you, or go over you. Leaving your helmet on until you get out of the landing area might be a good idea, too. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #49 October 21, 2008 Backing the original poster ... Dumbest thing I ever saw on a DZ ... I was the last one down - with my tandem student - predictable rectangular landing pattern aimed at pea gravel bowl. After I set up on final, three (recently landed) jumpers walked across the edge of the bowl (90 degrees to my final approach), blissfully unaware of other canopies landing. I made a small turn to land behind them, then made the mistake of yelling "HEADS UP!" One guy promptly reversed course to fill in the gap I had just turned towards. This forced me to make a second low altitude turn, which concluded with a late flare and bruised knee. Then he wondered why I yelled at him?????? Moral of the story: keep your eyes moving after landing. If some one is landing close to you, stand still. If some one is landing really close to you: crouch down! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DrewEckhardt 0 #50 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteYour first responsibility is to avoid them. Second is to avoid breaking yourself. Last is to look pretty when landing. Sorry but my FIRST responsblitiy is to ME and MY safety. Only when you limit yourself to making solo jumps into empy landing areas. Accepted pracice is for the people in the landing area to get out of the pea gravel or swoop course and STAND STILL. By doing something inherently incompatable with that, you're creating an accident waiting to happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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phantomII 36 #36 October 21, 2008 There are one or two more lessons we can learn form this landing. Staying alert on the ground is one that was already mentioned. The video shows that you choose your final right into the middle of that group. That puts you in a position where you have to rely on others not to make a mistake. It 's easy to avoid that situation. We all know how excited we can be after a jump. So if we plan for small mistakes by others we won't find ourselves in a corner where it gets sticky. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #37 October 21, 2008 QuoteHowever, if you are on a straight in pattern, and too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area, ESPESCIALLY one as large as the OP showed in his video, then do us all a favor and learn how to fly a canopy and not endanger people on the ground. What in the world is the matter with you guys? All you guys blaming or pointing fingers at Bill are missing the boat. You have no freakin' clue as to who it is coming in behind you (think first-jump student). No matter what you are doing out there, if you are too stupid to look around and watch out for those coming behind you...stay in the freakin' hangar out of the way. YOU are the idiot that will be screaming about "it was HIS fault" when you get hit. You expect a pilot to crash himself trying to avoid your dumbass walking around in the LZ? What? You think the LZ is a chat room or something? Like Squeek said...my first responsibility in this situation is to myself. You walk out in front of me and I can't avoid without getting hurt? Well, then I'm takin' you with me. God, I can't believe some of the idiocy some people post. Blindly stand there, walk around out there make a target of yourself if you like. Please don't cry too hard when you get hit. By your way of thinking we maybe should let the tandem families wander all over the LZ...after all, it's the pilot who should be avoiding them, right? Yes, a decent pilot probably could avoid you. Bill did it rather nicely, don't you think? Depending on every one of them to be a "decent" pilot and avoid your blind ass is a little much, eh? <> You wanna mindlessly flame somebody? Flame me, not Bill. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #38 October 21, 2008 Good video. It looks like you had your landing location/run-out selected and you were being pressured by the guy walking on the left. Your response was to call out to him, and his response was to stop and give you a space to land. It all worked out well, and it looks like everybody did pretty much what they should. Your original point was that we need to be aware of what we are doing in the landing area after we land. Often we are so excited about the jump that we relax our guard, and you wanted to remind everybody that the action of a jumper on the ground can have an effect on an approaching jumper, and vice versa. I think you are right on here. When I land I immediately turn and face downwind to see the approaching canopies. Then I lift my frap hat on one side so I can hear better, and stow my breaks while staying put. Once I have identified every approaching canopy and I am sure I’m not a factor I will walk back to the packing area while maintaining awareness of the approach zone. If there is any doubt I stay in position so as not to be a moving target, or give an approaching jumper the impression that I am unaware. And I want to be looking in his direction, making eye contact if possible, so he knows I see him. I have seen some nasty collisions between landing and landed jumpers. The jumper on the ground has more options, and should yield to the flying jumper, but that doesn’t always happen. Too often the landed jumper isn’t paying any attention, or isn’t even looking in the direction of the approaching traffic. This stuff is all pretty easy to handle at a small Cessna DZ, but the landing zone is much more dynamic at a large drop zone. This is worth thinking about, and worth discussing, especially for jumpers transitioning from small DZ’s to larger ones. Thanks for opening the discussion topic.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zoobrothertom 5 #39 October 21, 2008 You did fine. ____________________________________ I'm back in the USA!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #40 October 21, 2008 I keep waiting for one of the tandem students at my dz to get plowed! We have one tandem master than unhooks and lets them run off across the dz to their screaming friends. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #41 October 21, 2008 Quote There are one or two more lessons we can learn form this landing. Staying alert on the ground is one that was already mentioned. The video shows that you choose your final right into the middle of that group. That puts you in a position where you have to rely on others not to make a mistake. It 's easy to avoid that situation. We all know how excited we can be after a jump. So if we plan for small mistakes by others we won't find ourselves in a corner where it gets sticky. Yes I agree and I pointed that out in the first post too. My mistake was choosing to land in/around the middle of that mess and I fixed it on later jumps!! And most of the time I land out or further away. I think the video shows it was not super close here either... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #42 October 21, 2008 Quote I keep waiting for one of the tandem students at my dz to get plowed! We have one tandem master than unhooks and lets them run off across the dz to their screaming friends. Our tandem instructors keep the student with them and then ask them to help him carry the gear back in. Works great and they feel like they are part of the action. Also works great for their friends and family to take pictures. Those good action shots. We also have ropes and nobody is allowed past those unless your staff or an up jumper out helping to shag tandems. Period. Once in a while people get out there, but for the most part it works very well and everybody respects that system. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #43 October 21, 2008 I think that the people arguing about standing still vs. moving are arguing 2 different scenarios. 1. If you are in the landing area, face the canopies that are landing, and stand the fuck still. That way, landing jumpers can aim for clear areas that are actually there without worrying about who's going to be walking where in another few seconds. 2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. I guess option number three is that you are totally clueless to the world around you, whether standing still or walking, and not keeping an eye on other traffic, in which case, you probably deserve to be taken out for sheer stupidity To the OP... looks like you did a nice job, didn't look like a target fixation issue, you handled it well, other guy stopped. It didn't look like a close call (but probably felt like it at the time that it happened). To prevent it, land in a more open area next time instead of threading a needle between two jumpers on the ground, and hopefully guy on the ground learned his lesson about paying attention to landing traffic. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #44 October 21, 2008 Quote Why do people ASSume that I must have been swooping... Because the perception of what happened was that it was a bad thing, and everyone knows the wellhead from which all evil springs is the swoop community. Look at history. Judas Iscariot, Adolf Hitler, and this guy all reported to be frustrated swoopers. The Unaswooper, Vlad the Inflailer, and Chow 'n Fly, all had no outlet to get their swoop on and had to resort to other pursuits. Just like the housing downturn, the financial crisis, and the movie Gigli, swooping was involved, we just haven't figured out how, yet...Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
d123 1 #45 October 21, 2008 I agree with Squeak 100%! Walking accuracy is a LOT BETTER than landing accuracy! Think of all those accuracy chugs/swooping chugs done and watch. Everybody gets the beer by walking to it. Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,340 #46 October 21, 2008 Quote QuoteHowever, if you are on a straight in pattern, and too incompetent to miss a person in a landing area, ESPESCIALLY one as large as the OP showed in his video, then do us all a favor and learn how to fly a canopy and not endanger people on the ground. What in the world is the matter with you guys? All you guys blaming or pointing fingers at Bill are missing the boat. ... YOU are the idiot that will be screaming about "it was HIS fault" when you get hit. You expect a pilot to crash himself trying to avoid your dumbass walking around in the LZ? What? You think the LZ is a chat room or something? Like Squeek said...my first responsibility in this situation is to myself. You walk out in front of me and I can't avoid without getting hurt? Well, then I'm takin' you with me. God, I can't believe some of the idiocy some people post. Blindly stand there, walk around out there make a target of yourself if you like. Please don't cry too hard when you get hit. ..Yes, a decent pilot probably could avoid you. Bill did it rather nicely, don't you think? Depending on every one of them to be a "decent" pilot and avoid your blind ass is a little much, eh? <> You wanna mindlessly flame somebody? Flame me, not Bill. Nice rant. Hit a lot of good points right on the head. BTW - FAR 91.67 (f) "Aircraft while on final approach to land, or while landing, have the right of way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface". We aren't airplanes, but i would think the rules still apply. Right of way doesn't make you heal any faster, but gives you right to yell a little."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #47 October 21, 2008 Good point! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #48 October 21, 2008 Quote2. If you are in the landing area, facing the canopies that are landing, and you are in imminent danger of getting taken out, get the fuck out of the way. In general, I agree. However, I disagree that one's reaction upon realizing an imminent collision should be dodging to one side or the other. We teach canopy pilots to make small turns to one side or the oher to avoid last minute obstacles, so you may end up juking left just as the pilot jukes left, too. If you think someeone is going to hit you, drop to the ground in place, brace for impact, and cover your head. Chances are they'll either go around you, or go over you. Leaving your helmet on until you get out of the landing area might be a good idea, too. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #49 October 21, 2008 Backing the original poster ... Dumbest thing I ever saw on a DZ ... I was the last one down - with my tandem student - predictable rectangular landing pattern aimed at pea gravel bowl. After I set up on final, three (recently landed) jumpers walked across the edge of the bowl (90 degrees to my final approach), blissfully unaware of other canopies landing. I made a small turn to land behind them, then made the mistake of yelling "HEADS UP!" One guy promptly reversed course to fill in the gap I had just turned towards. This forced me to make a second low altitude turn, which concluded with a late flare and bruised knee. Then he wondered why I yelled at him?????? Moral of the story: keep your eyes moving after landing. If some one is landing close to you, stand still. If some one is landing really close to you: crouch down! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #50 October 21, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteYour first responsibility is to avoid them. Second is to avoid breaking yourself. Last is to look pretty when landing. Sorry but my FIRST responsblitiy is to ME and MY safety. Only when you limit yourself to making solo jumps into empy landing areas. Accepted pracice is for the people in the landing area to get out of the pea gravel or swoop course and STAND STILL. By doing something inherently incompatable with that, you're creating an accident waiting to happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 2 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
