The111 0
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QuoteQuote>I don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their
>buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit.
They don't think they are, but history has shown that they do. As mentioned previously, DSE now has a fairly long list of people who _did_ get distracted by some of that stuff.
Agreed. Have you done a camera jump, Ridestrong? I have done hundreds... but my very first one was one of my all-time stupidest skydives (recounted somewhere previously in this thread, I think).
Cameras are huge distractions, plain and simple.
Here is a video of a buddy and I doing our first heli jump with GoPro's, both his perspective and mine. I haven't jumped with a camera over the past ~40 jumps and will not until I hit 200. I think you'll see by the video that I wasn't exactly thinking about the 'lighting'...
Yeah we geeked it up for the camera and I'm sure there will be a bunch of different interpretations of it, but I can tell you that once I climbed out of that chopper I never once thought about that camera on my helmet. 2 Monkeys Jumping Out of a Chopper
*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----
trig78 0
Why not making it a rating?
facebook.com/trig78
QuoteI don't think that people that start wearing a GoPro to jump with their buddies at around 200 jumps are thinking about all that bullshit. I think their mainly thinking the same thing as every other jump, lets try to get a good exit, stay together, get a dock, etc... but maybe that's just me.
Yep, that's just you.
You make this statement based on your own experience, and possibly that of a few people around you. I make my statements based on watching literally 100's of people come and go through this sport, and the common mistakes that prevail with those people.
So you strapped on a GoPro, and did some jumps with it. A helo jump is a poor example, because the jump itself it quite unique, and likely to command your full attention (aka repect). Put yourself at the DZ on any Sat or Sun, and imagine your mindset going into your 6th or 7th jump of the day, the 3rd or 4th you made with same group of guys. Your comfort level goes up, and that's when your brain starts working (or not working as the case may be).
The types of scenarios I outlined are not the first, second, or even tenth jump with a camera. They creep in once you get 'comfortable'. The errors on those early jumps surround gear checks and overall awareness on a skydive. To a guy with 100 jumps, 20 jumps with a camera seems like a good hunk of 'expereince', and that's when they start to get 'creative'.
I'm not sure why you persist in arguing this point when high-time jumper after high-time jumper freely admits that they all made these types of mistakes early on when jumping a camera. Some of them even cop to having 500+ jumps at the time they acted like an idiot. Why would they admit to the world that they fucked up, and that they are apparently 'average', and made some common, rookie mistakes if it wasn't true? Why would the USPA take their time to establish any sort of anything with regards to shooting video if the problem is non-existant?
(Keep in mind that creating an actual BSR is a nightmare of red-tape and paperwork, involving several committees, votes, and all sort of other BS. Creating a 'reccomendation' is 10x easier, and faster and gets it on the books ASAP).
You are 100% correct that there are jumpers with the capacity to safely shoot video of any kind with 100 jumps. Those ultra-bright, super talented jumpers do exist, but the problem is that it's really hard to know who fits that description, and who will go full-retard when the shit hits the fan. If you send people up and hope for the best, the guys who go full-retard will eventaully hurt themselves or someone esle, so the answer is simply to not send anyone up until they are well into a 'safe zone'.
Maybe you're ready at 100 jumps, and Biff is ready at 150, but Skippy needs 175 and Jimmy needs 225, so if everyone waits until they have 200 jumps, 3/4 of you will be fine, and Jimmy won't be jumping anymore in a year or two.
rehmwa 2
QuoteWhy not making it a rating?
ssshhh - USPA already has enough ways to charge people for doing simple stuff - it's starting to look like PADI
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
QuoteRight or wrong both the monkey and the snowflake are entitled to their opinions.
But what you continually CHOOSE to ignore is that your opinion disregards the EXPERIENCE of those that have come before you.
You and others with the attitude you have, have proven over time that they tend to end up dead or seriously injured. If you stop trying to be right and actually hear what those that have been in the sport for decades are saying, you may understand one day.
I hope you never end up in a bad situation and you know what? You may just make it 1000's of jumps with no problem. But the chances are, if you ignore good sound advice from people that have seen it and done it. Well... let us know the hospital you are in and we well send you a get well card. Or even a pretty wreath to hang on your tombstone.
Dom
wmw999 2,121
The problem is that the penalty for ignoring the law of averages is not guaranteed. My sigline has its reason.
Wendy P.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
rehmwa 2
the camera, the fast canopy, freeflying too soon, swooping too soon, base too soon, etc, etc, etc, etc
I guess individually, I can find ways to help a newbie get going on any one of them, even if it is early.
But the general attitude I see is newbies thinking they can just jump into all of them, without good training, before good habits/responses are learned and they think they'll be great at it without training.
So much of the resistance is just against this whole "I am entitled to all of this NOW". Which tends to create people with poor skills, potential for overload, and burnout and a skill set where no one wants to jump with him except another guy just like him - ok, they are welcome to smash each other into hamburger and think it's steak.
One real point - The skydiver that wants to try one thing early is also one that'll think he can do 3 things early. That's why we push back on "that guy". We don't want him to hurt himself (I don't much care about that, but I don't want him to hurt others or me)
People want to learn, but any generic structure that's laid out will be based on the most conservative approach and will be frustrating, by definition, to most newbies. Each of these guys needs to be handled locally. I almost think that we should just not respond to "those posts" on DZ.com and just point them back to their locals who have a vested interest in developing their guys at a pace appropriate for their environment.
no solution here, just thoughts
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
I guess individually, I can find ways to help a newbie get going on any one of them, even if it is early.
But the general attitude I see is newbies thinking they can just jump into all of them, without good training, before good habits/responses are learned and they think they'll be great at it without training.
So much of the resistance is just against this whole "I am entitled to all of this NOW". Which tends to create people with poor skills, potential for overload, and burnout and a skill set where no one wants to jump with him except another guy just like him - ok, they are welcome to smash each other into hamburger and think it's steak.
One real point - The skydiver that wants to try one thing early is also one that'll think he can do 3 things early. That's why we push back on "that guy". We don't want him to hurt himself (I don't much care about that, but I don't want him to hurt others or me)
People want to learn, but any generic structure that's laid out will be based on the most conservative approach and will be frustrating, by definition, to most newbies. Each of these guys needs to be handled locally. I almost think that we should just not respond to "those posts" on DZ.com and just point them back to their locals who have a vested interest in developing their guys at a pace appropriate for their environment.
no solution here, just thoughts
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
We should start a "Mad Skillz" DZ. I bet it would get sued a lot and have a lot of memorials on it.
Dom
I agree with your sig line 100%
Dom
QuoteQuoteTo the contrary, I would not the least bit surprised to hear that a jumper with 100+ jumps, even a well trained one, was not ready for the distraction and added workload of jumping a camera.
I'm just curious... which do you think most distracts a jumper from their own personal awareness?
1. Jumping out with another person who you intend to coach; matching their fall rate, paying attention to their form, watching their maneuvers, watching their track at break-off.
or
2. Jumping with a GoPro on your helmet?
The jump with the GoPro.
The jump with the coach has been planned practiced and has taken into account safety and contingency plans.
The majority of low time GoPro jumps think it's all about "fire and forget", do not plan for contingencies, do not consider the safety aspects, but then try to "fly camera".
It's only hundreds of years and tens of thousands of jumps worth of skydiving experience that is saying this over, and over, and over, and over, and over......
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.
wmw999 2,121
Nailed it. Swooping is not what you do at the end of an already fun-filled and busy jump, it's what you learn as a separate discipline and spend real time on. Likewise camera, likewise FF, etc.QuoteI guess individually, I can find ways to help a newbie get going on any one of them, even if it is early.
But the general attitude I see is newbies thinking they can just jump into all of them
Each one is a discipline in and of itself worthy of spending time on, not just an add-on to the "real" jump.
Me, I run out of brain cells if I try to do too many things on the same jump. That includes just jumping at a new DZ.
Wendy P.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)
QuotePeople want to learn, but any generic structure that's laid out will be based on the most conservative approach and will be frustrating, by definition, to most newbies.
What's interesting is that if any one of those 'frustrated' jumpers would just apply themselves to something more appropriate to their skill level, they would find plenty of excitement and reward participating in jumps they are ready for.
How many of the 'mad skillz' can actually launch a four peice out of the door? Consistantly? How many can turn pieces relative to other pieces? How about vertical moves, how many can do those without crashing down on the other peice?
Can any of the 'mad skillz' guys exit stable in a sit and on their haed? How about with grips?
Can any of them keep up with a fast paced tracking dive? On their back or belly?
How about go 10 for 10 trying to land with 2m of a target?
All of the above are appropriate skills for any jumper to work on, and all challenging as hell. If you sought out some no-cost ground based coaching in any of the above skills, you could occupy an easy 20 jumps working on any one of them. Once you have a goal in mind, and a method to achieve that goal, you suddenly install purpose and reward to your jumps.
But no, everyone wants to leapfrog over those things right to the next 'big thing'. As soon as they strap on a video camera, it won't be long until they want a still camera. Are they flying the video well, and producing consistantly good footage? Probably not, but all they want is that next big step.
Once you start doing 90's to final, everyone starts talking 180s or 270s. Are the 90s clean, and with accuracy? Hell no, but onward and upwards.
Even if these guys manage to go the distance, and stay in the sport and out of the hospital, all you have is a buch of guys with 1000 jumps who suck at just about everything.
rehmwa 2
QuoteEven if these guys manage to go the distance, and stay in the sport and out of the hospital, all you have is a bunch of guys with 1000 jumps who suck at just about everything.
nailed it
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
+1
faulknerwn 36
Quote
Each of these guys needs to be handled locally. I almost think that we should just not respond to "those posts" on DZ.com and just point them back to their locals who have a vested interest in developing their guys at a pace appropriate for their environment.
Its easy for my dz to watch out for folks and such because we just have a couple of Cessnas. What about the guys jumping at Eloy or Perris or Chicago? It seems that it would be extremely easy for them to get onto a plane where no one knows who they are or their skill level with a camera with no one ever saying a word.
The good things about those dropzones is that there are tons of really good and experienced flyers to learn from. The downside is that it is easier to do stupid shit and not have anyone notice or care as long as you don't endanger them.
dninness 4
Quote>The youth of today has grown up expecting instant gratification.
It's not just today; youth has always been like that.
But yes, it's a problem. Most people in the sport for a short time have never seen a fatality or even a serious injury. So for them, anyone who tells them "you shouldn't do that" is a twat who thinks that they're God's gift to skydiving, and only they can do the cool exciting stuff. Why else would they try to stop them?
Bill, you nailed this one.
Jim Crouch was up here in the northeast about a month ago, and Mary Lou held an S&TA meeting with him at my DZ. All were invited, not just S&TAs, and Jim passed around a clipboard for anybody to write topics on.
This was one of those topics, and interestingly, one of the guys in the room was a ~125 jump low-timer who'd recently gotten and jumped (repeatedly) a Go-Pro. While I did not call him out by name, I did say "We've seen some folks show up with low jump numbers and a camera and act like it 'ain't no big deal'.." Jim and all the S&TAs agreed that the 200 jump recommendation, while being just a recommendation, was really a good place to start and that its up to the S&TAs and the DZOs to enforce recommendations like that.
Sure a guy with 175 jumps *might* be able to handle a camera. But having jumped a few dozen camera jumps myself, I think for a low-timer its a tremendous distraction. Hell, even now I find myself "flying my head" for the shot when i swore up and down that i wasn't doing that.
:)
Our low-time guy with the Go-Pro, after that meeting, decided to put his Go-Pro away until he has at least 200 jumps. He asked me after "hey, was that me you were referring to in there?" I said "Yeah, you and a couple others, but mostly you." He said "I didn't think that it was a big deal, but I can see, and have seen, where the camera can cause me to lose focus on the task at hand. And I don't want there to be a problem where someone could say 'Yeah, its cuz he's got 160 jumps and a camera!' ..."
Conversely, I jumped with another coach last year who was borrowing a low-timers camera helmet (long story) while jumping a coach jump. The coach and another jumper spent the entire ride to altitude dinking with the camera and hamming it up on tape. I wound up reviewing the skydive in the plane and doing the student's gear checks because the other coach was so distracted by the camera. (never mind the quality of the skydive).
*sigh*
BTW, I think those Go-Pro mounts are an accident waiting for a riser or line. Most folks I see with them don't have a helmet cutaway or some kind of a frangible mount, and one DZ nearby, after an errant Go-Pro came off its original mount and landed nearby, mandated that they be securely bolted to the flyer's helmet. Heaven forbid that a line snakes around that thing on deployment and creates either a mal or a broken neck.
NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19
D-19617, AFF-I '19
QuoteQuote
Each of these guys needs to be handled locally. I almost think that we should just not respond to "those posts" on DZ.com and just point them back to their locals who have a vested interest in developing their guys at a pace appropriate for their environment.
Its easy for my dz to watch out for folks and such because we just have a couple of Cessnas. What about the guys jumping at Eloy or Perris or Chicago? It seems that it would be extremely easy for them to get onto a plane where no one knows who they are or their skill level with a camera with no one ever saying a word.
The good things about those dropzones is that there are tons of really good and experienced flyers to learn from. The downside is that it is easier to do stupid shit and not have anyone notice or care as long as you don't endanger them.
VERY true...like I said I don't know 1/2 the people on a given load at my DZ. (Spaceland)
...and if one more n00b asks me if my flag container is a tersh and can they jump it, I'm gonna pinch off their little heads like a mantis!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
PhreeZone 15
Wendy you are absolutely correct that at busier DZ's its way easier for things to slide. At a medium or larger turbine DZ its common to only know the names of half the people on the DZ and for the staff to be too involved in the student jumps to be putting much attention into the experienced jumpers until there is an incident. I used to travel a lot and especially when I was around the 100-300 jump level I never was really questioned when I showed up at a DZ for a boogie about what was I dong, how much experience I had or if I should have been jumping my camera at that time or not.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
brucet7 0
Dave, I appreciated the list of skills that one needs work on. That is almost the exact list that I am working on. One or more of those things is the objective of every jump. I jump with lots of new jumpers, even though I am not really that great myself. One week we are trying to stay in the same area and a similar altitude. The next week I see them they are too busy working on their freefly to do a two way and showing me there new camera set up. They funnel out the door, but they do have nice pictures to show on the big screen TV in the hanger. I personally have not thought about a camera other than looking at a helmet that will one day maybe hold one.
But then I am old and hope to get older.
But then I am old and hope to get older.
POPS #10623; SOS #1672
QuoteQuoteQuote
Each of these guys needs to be handled locally. I almost think that we should just not respond to "those posts" on DZ.com and just point them back to their locals who have a vested interest in developing their guys at a pace appropriate for their environment.
Its easy for my dz to watch out for folks and such because we just have a couple of Cessnas. What about the guys jumping at Eloy or Perris or Chicago? It seems that it would be extremely easy for them to get onto a plane where no one knows who they are or their skill level with a camera with no one ever saying a word.
The good things about those dropzones is that there are tons of really good and experienced flyers to learn from. The downside is that it is easier to do stupid shit and not have anyone notice or care as long as you don't endanger them.
VERY true...like I said I don't know 1/2 the people on a given load at my DZ. (Spaceland)
...and if one more n00b asks me if my flag container is a tersh and can they jump it, I'm gonna pinch off their little heads like a mantis!
d00d!! you got a tersh rig?
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message
I did an improvised poll.
<100 jumps: No
>100 jumps <200 jumps: No freakin' clue
>200 jumps: Yes
<100 jumps: No
>100 jumps <200 jumps: No freakin' clue
>200 jumps: Yes
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote
Each of these guys needs to be handled locally. I almost think that we should just not respond to "those posts" on DZ.com and just point them back to their locals who have a vested interest in developing their guys at a pace appropriate for their environment.
Its easy for my dz to watch out for folks and such because we just have a couple of Cessnas. What about the guys jumping at Eloy or Perris or Chicago? It seems that it would be extremely easy for them to get onto a plane where no one knows who they are or their skill level with a camera with no one ever saying a word.
The good things about those dropzones is that there are tons of really good and experienced flyers to learn from. The downside is that it is easier to do stupid shit and not have anyone notice or care as long as you don't endanger them.
VERY true...like I said I don't know 1/2 the people on a given load at my DZ. (Spaceland)
...and if one more n00b asks me if my flag container is a tersh and can they jump it, I'm gonna pinch off their little heads like a mantis!
d00d!! you got a tersh rig?
Lucky bastard. I only have a duoche rig.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
PmedicJ 0
Ok, This is my recommendation!
People are jumping a go-pro or contour without the required magical 200 jumps, it happens on a lot of DZ's
We must all agree that the SIM is a little outdated...Or not!
But how about a remedy to the situation? why not make it 100 jumps and have an experienced camera flyer or coach go with and instruct and watch someone that would like to fly a small camera setup such as the go-pro or contour? Have a debriefing and recommend to or not until such person is said to meet the requirements to use such a device and until they learn and apply the potential dangers and hazards associated with them are they aloud to use this device, along with having a rigger and S&TA sign off on! IMO this would cure a large problem and make it an official recommendation!
I have heard new jumpers say "i will bang out another 150 or so hop n" pops and then I can use my new camera and a wingsuit together @ the same time!"
where is the instruction and training?
Oh that's right the SIM
We all know that it takes time but how about time and a little instruction?
I think that this might cure some rambunctious behavior and keep some folks satisfied at the same time!
Just my opinion!
People are jumping a go-pro or contour without the required magical 200 jumps, it happens on a lot of DZ's
We must all agree that the SIM is a little outdated...Or not!
But how about a remedy to the situation? why not make it 100 jumps and have an experienced camera flyer or coach go with and instruct and watch someone that would like to fly a small camera setup such as the go-pro or contour? Have a debriefing and recommend to or not until such person is said to meet the requirements to use such a device and until they learn and apply the potential dangers and hazards associated with them are they aloud to use this device, along with having a rigger and S&TA sign off on! IMO this would cure a large problem and make it an official recommendation!
I have heard new jumpers say "i will bang out another 150 or so hop n" pops and then I can use my new camera and a wingsuit together @ the same time!"
where is the instruction and training?
Oh that's right the SIM
We all know that it takes time but how about time and a little instruction?
I think that this might cure some rambunctious behavior and keep some folks satisfied at the same time!
Just my opinion!
Agreed. Have you done a camera jump, Ridestrong? I have done hundreds... but my very first one was one of my all-time stupidest skydives (recounted somewhere previously in this thread, I think).
Cameras are huge distractions, plain and simple.
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