Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not?

[DSE 3]

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Are you ruling out the fact that..

A: Shit does happen, and has always been happening to these jumpers in the 1-200 jump range regardless of a camera?

B: The camera played a direct role in what happened and would absolutely not have happened if the camera was not present?

Just because a teen gets in a car wreck does not mean a cell phone caused ALL the wrecks happening to teens because one just happened to be in the car at that time, teens have been getting in car wrecks for years.....BUT factors in some no argument there

I'm not pushing for anyone jumping a camera before 200. I just know you seem to be heading the torch and pitchfork mob. Just wondering how you are analyzing things and if you are padding the "incident list" because you feel so strongly about the subject.

Just don't want everyone who gets a stubbed toe, or anything that could have happened to anyone getting on your "camera list" when it would have happened to anyone regardless if a camera was strapped to their head or not.

I'm all for safety(part of my job in the fire service) and don't want to see ANYONE on ANY "list", so I agree with the cause, but would hate to see fake inflated reports.

If a teen is in a car wreck and an open cell phone is found on the floor of the car, there is no way to absolutely rule in or out, that the cell phone played a role.

Read back in the past years of all the guys that thought small canopies weren't playing much of a role in the increase in low turn incidents. There is still no way to absolutely rule that these guys that died wouldn't have hooked it in under a 210 either.

Usually, where there is smoke there is fire, no?

[Anvilbrother 0]

If the person died in a car accident then yes a cell phone on the floor might not show directly what happened.

Not all car wrecks, and thankfully all camera incidents end in a fatality, in which case we can question the jumper or jumpers and review what happened. God forbid even in a fatality just like checking the cell phone record to see if the phone was in use at the time, we can review the footage, which might clearly show the camera had no play whatsoever in the incident.

If a riser breaking near the line attachments or some other gear failure on rented gear at parts they could not do a gear check on, or someone violating the jumpers airspace and hitting them in freefall, and If they do their eps fine, or recover from the mid air strike without incident would you put them in their list?

If video evidence or the own jumpers words show they stumbled through their EP like that one guy did in removing his helmet before cutaway, or they were trying to get video of the guy that hit them before getting stable again, then fine put them on your list. I don't want to get in any big thing with you, i'm in on your cause, just want good numbers to back it up.

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Read back in the past years of all the guys that thought small canopies weren't playing much of a role in the increase in low turn incidents. There is still no way to absolutely rule that these guys that died wouldn't have hooked it in under a 210 either.

Exactly

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Usually, where there is smoke there is fire, no?

No where there is smoke there is pyrolysis and you are trying to catch it before it starts a fire:)

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[billvon 2,422]

>Just because a teen gets in a car wreck does not mean a cell phone
>caused ALL the wrecks happening to teens because one just happened to
>be in the car at that time.

Agreed. But:

1) If he recently got a cellphone and
2) he was texting someone while driving and
3) other people noticed him distracted by it and
4) he ignored people who told him not to text and drive since he was a superior driver

odds are that it did play a role. Heck, if only two of those factors were there, odds are pretty high that it played a role.

[ridestrong 1]

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And yet another incident over the weekend involving a small format camera and a low time jumper.
Keep those stories comin' folks.
JimGoFast; I'm curious which instructors at your DZ are saying you're good with jumping a camera?

Where can we find all of these incidents involving small format cameras you and others say are compiled? Can you post a link?

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[DSE 3]

it's been posted for a coupla weeks now.

[ridestrong 1]

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it's been posted for a coupla weeks now.

That's nice.... How about a link? Please.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[ridestrong 1]

Found It... Thanks anyway.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[ridestrong 1]

Looks like you added a bit of fiction for dramatic effect.

On the plus side it will get people thinking about the risks before they jump one, or if they already are.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[theonlyski 3]

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Found It... Thanks anyway.

I think that was kinda the point

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[azureriders 0]

Chad,

It is a fact that teenagers have been wrecking cars long before they were on cell phones. I totaled a half dozen or so myself before the age of 20 and was 22 when purchasing my first cell phone.

It is also a fact that distractive driving is dangerous and even more so for the inexperienced driver. While cell phones may not be causing all of the teen age wrecks, they are a distraction. It is a strong fact that if we toke those phones away, there would be no more cell phone induced teen age wrecks, simply as that.

Anything we can do to reduce the number of safety related incidents for novice jumpers is a good thing. Anything we can do to increase the amount of time novice jumpers are spending learning basic survival skills is also a great thing. Thinking about your camera takes time away from what you should be learning.

In my opinion, any incident that happens with a camera on a skydiver’s head, the camera is a factor, even if not the leading factor. Notice I said nothing about jump numbers here. If you have a riser break I will bet most anything that the way you look, the direction you tilt your head, the thoughts that rush through you mind, will all be affected by whether there is a camera on your head or not. So even if the camera was not a factor in the cause, it will be in the reaction. 99.99% of the time.

So just like teens and cell phones, taking the cameras away from the sub 200 skydivers may not eliminate all their incidents, but it will for a fact eliminate the camera related ones.

The above may not have needed to be said for you have agreed and said "I’m in on your cause". You also said "just want good numbers to back it up." which I hope I have expressed above that in my opinion all camera related numbers are good numbers to back it up.

Further it should be noted that DSE has put forth a lot of effort to make the video flyers of our sport more informed and more safe. I do not believe that he would skew any list to, nor does he have the need to.

Hope to see you soon at the DZ.

[DSE 3]

Other than a couple, the "incidents" are pasted from PM's.
Yours is culled straight from your own thread. Yours was just too easy.
"I know I ignored the recommendations, I had a cutaway and my mad skillz saved me. I'm still jumpin' a camera because I've proven I gots the skillz. I agree, not everyone is as heads-up as me."

You don't think it's dramatic that you didn't pull your reserve handle in a cutaway scenario?
Maybe a revisit to an FJC is in order.
Or you could heed DiabloPilot's advice found earlier in this thread.
Now _that_ is dramatic. (but probably very sound advice).

[ridestrong 1]

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Other than a couple, the "incidents" are pasted from PM's.
Yours is culled straight from your own thread. Yours was just too easy.
"I know I ignored the recommendations, I had a cutaway and my mad skillz saved me. I'm still jumpin' a camera because I've proven I gots the skillz. I agree, not everyone is as heads-up as me."

Again a bunch of fiction... Don't claim to "quote" me like you just did above when those are not my words and I haven't displayed such attitude. I have never claimed to have any "mad skillz" or insinuated as such, but you guys love to tell people that's what they think of themselves . Also, I have not jumped with a camera since that incident... (other than in your fictional stories anyway).

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You don't think it's dramatic that you didn't pull your reserve handle in a cutaway scenario?

This was discussed in the thread. SkyHook beat me... I knew SkyHook beat me... I was under a reserve..

I don't mind sharing that incident with anyone, in fact I encourage people to read it as they can/may learn from it. All I ask is that you keep your own dramatic twists out of it.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Anvilbrother 0]

I agree, it's probably just the internet, and there being no true way to visibly and audibly hear and see the way people feel and talk about a subject, but sometimes it feels like were in the speakers corner when one person is always coming out with such strong feelings against one subject all over the place.

Its hard to tell if they really care and are just passionate about a topic(which is a great one), or they are just being a sky god trying to down the ones with less jumpers(which again is warranted in this case)

While at a scene I have been taught and go through risk analysis that could help explain to people whats going on with the camera issue.

1. Identify the hazard?
Could be snag, or inattentiveness to the skydive etc

2. What is the probability/frequency this will occur?
Occasional on every jump

3. What would the potential outcome be?
Loss of awareness, issues with EP, etc. etc.

4. What harm/damage would occur and its severity?
Serious to catastrophic

5. Can this be managed or prevented?
Yes proper experience, gear, training, currency, etc

6. Analise the risk act and reevaluate frequently
By looking at this there is a chance it could happen on any
jump, the outcome could be severe, the only way to
MITIGATE(not eliminate) would to follow step 5, if you
cant(low numbers, sketchy gear, not current) it could kill
you, so DON'T DO IT.

How does that look to you guys?

Mike and I are coming out for my birthday on 24 july hopefully this tropical weather crap will be long gone. See you then

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[GaVak 0]

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>
It would be great to have for the next "I'll just turn it on and forget about it" bumpkin.

I don’t agree with that being poor justification in every case.

I started jumping my Sony CX150 at 120 jumps with just that approach. I made it the least important part of my skydive, and that's exactly what it is. So much so that even 30 odd jumps with it later, a last minute change to an RW dive flow in the plane can make me utterly forget about turning it on before I go out the door.

My purpose in adding a camera to my jumps: I have several buddies I started practicing 2-way drills with earlier this year. They both have cameras, and their footage from our jumps helped me a great deal in correcting body position problems I was having. As it had such a positive effect on my skill growth, I wanted to return the favor.

I would never classify myself as someone with “Mad Skillz”, quite the opposite. It takes me many jumps to learn a specific body move, and I’m still dialing in 100% stand-up ladings with my current canopy. I’m in no hurry to learn anything specific, and I’m not trying to ‘prove’ myself to other jumpers outside of being in my allotted slot on a planed jump. I had nothing to prove with the camera either, I just wanted it to record footage while I was in freefall.

I did my research on this site and talked to a few instructors about the ‘200’ limit, and the biggest concern is ‘being distracted’ by the camera and failing to follow the basic skydiving safety routine you had pre-camera. At 120 jumps in just under a year, I couldn’t imagine waiting another 8-12 months before adding a camera to help my buddies out on our 2-way drills.

So my question for you: knowing my own limitations and by making the camera my smallest priority on my skydives, was I being reckless and/or unsafe in starting at 120 jumps?

~Gav

Life doesn't need reasons, just participants.

D.S.#21

[Anvilbrother 0]

I owe you an apology I was unaware of an actual list until tonight i was under the impression when you would comment saying you were adding it to my "list" you were being sarcastic. After looking at it I believe it is unbiased and done well. I agree with the cause just thought you were being an arsehole lol. Once again I apologize thanks for what you and your contacts are doing. :)

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[rhanold 0]

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>
It would be great to have for the next "I'll just turn it on and forget about it" bumpkin.

I don’t agree with that being poor justification in every case.

I started jumping my Sony CX150 at 120 jumps with just that approach. I made it the least important part of my skydive, and that's exactly what it is. So much so that even 30 odd jumps with it later, a last minute change to an RW dive flow in the plane can make me utterly forget about turning it on before I go out the door.

My purpose in adding a camera to my jumps: I have several buddies I started practicing 2-way drills with earlier this year. They both have cameras, and their footage from our jumps helped me a great deal in correcting body position problems I was having. As it had such a positive effect on my skill growth, I wanted to return the favor.

I would never classify myself as someone with “Mad Skillz”, quite the opposite. It takes me many jumps to learn a specific body move, and I’m still dialing in 100% stand-up ladings with my current canopy. I’m in no hurry to learn anything specific, and I’m not trying to ‘prove’ myself to other jumpers outside of being in my allotted slot on a planed jump. I had nothing to prove with the camera either, I just wanted it to record footage while I was in freefall.

I did my research on this site and talked to a few instructors about the ‘200’ limit, and the biggest concern is ‘being distracted’ by the camera and failing to follow the basic skydiving safety routine you had pre-camera. At 120 jumps in just under a year, I couldn’t imagine waiting another 8-12 months before adding a camera to help my buddies out on our 2-way drills.

So my question for you: knowing my own limitations and by making the camera my smallest priority on my skydives, was I being reckless and/or unsafe in starting at 120 jumps?

~Gav

Unfortunately I can't directly answer your question, If I could I could put an end to this thread with a definitive answer.

I would say you were being less safe than I would like to see... IMHO. From your post it sounds like you describe your learning curve for skydiving as par or sub par, you then engage in jumping a new piece of equipment and instead of listening to advice from people who have been there you decide to jump it anyway because you think you wouldn't get distracted like everyone else. I know these are not your words, this is what I took from your post.

Your motivation for jumping a camera might be unique but the execution is not unlike a lot of the things people in this thread and people on the DZ are warning you about. It is the "I can handle it" argument.

One more point on distraction. How do you know you are distracted or not? Any person's perception of themselves are greatly flawed. You can see this if you ask your jump partner about the jump you were just on together and do not offer any input. If you don't provide any input there will most likely be a few things that you disagree with. Like they just got a few details wrong or sometimes you question if you were on the same jump. Point is you won't know you are distracted until something happens to drastically open your eyes. Could be too late. This is of course assuming you are distracted at all.

Blue Skies,
Ryan

[pilotdave 0]

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I couldn’t imagine waiting another 8-12 months before adding a camera

Really? You couldn't imagine following USPA's recommendations because it would take a whole year? You've got a nice reason for wanting to jump a camera, but it's not such a nice reason to ignore recommendations. I haven't heard that nice a reason for jumping a camera early from anyone yet... which is why I'd fully support a camera flying BSR. I waited until I had 700 jumps to put on a camera. And that took me almost 8 years. I never thought about the disservice I was doing to my friends by waiting so long to video them.
I think a lot of times people don't realize how much of a distraction the camera is. Sure at first you're just gonna turn it on and forget it. I assume you have no indicator light so you just hope you turned it on before exit. You'll never climb out and then start wondering if it's on or not. And it's not like you're really actively shooting video... it's only along for the ride. Until you notice you're always looking too low so you fix that on the next jump by looking above what you want to see. And then you notice that your hands are in your video an awful lot so you change your flying style to get them out of the way. And hey, instead of tracking this time, why not watch your friend pull in place... could be useful for debriefing. And on and on and on... the cameras change our behavior. The idea behind a 200-jump recommendation (which is an absolute minimum for those that are current and on top of their game) is for building in awareness and good habits before letting a camera create poor awareness and bad habits.

I truly believe that many people would improve their flying skills by removing the camera for a while. Even if they don't think it's distracting them.

Dave

[beowulf 1]

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So my question for you: knowing my own limitations and by making the camera my smallest priority on my skydives, was I being reckless and/or unsafe in starting at 120 jumps?

I would say yes. At 120 jumps you don't know what you don't know. You say it won't change how you fly, but from personal experience it does change how you fly. I started flying camera at about 430 jumps and it did change my skydiving. You are better off doing more jumps and concentrating on your flying then adding a camera. If will take you 8 to 12 months to reach 200 then I think you really don't have the currency to be dealing with a camera.

[NovaTTT 1]

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Looks like you added a bit of fiction for dramatic effect.

Yes - such as the part in the incident where "the guy" (cough, cough) detaches his helmet before cutting away. The video clearly shows no reach for the reserve handle, but the Log indicates the jumper stated his hand was on it but he chose to not pull.

That's fiction, alright.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[billvon 2,422]

>I have several buddies I started practicing 2-way drills with earlier this year.
> They both have cameras . . .

Are they both at a similar experience level?

>I did my research on this site and talked to a few instructors about the
>‘200’ limit, and the biggest concern is ‘being distracted’ by the camera and
>failing to follow the basic skydiving safety routine you had pre-camera.

Yes. And history has shown that you're not going to even be aware of it until it causes a problem. The same lack of 'extra bandwidth' that makes camera a problem can cause people to not even be aware of the distraction it causes.

>At 120 jumps in just under a year, I couldn’t imagine waiting another 8-12
>months before adding a camera to help my buddies out on our 2-way drills.

Why not at 20 jumps, then? Wouldn't your buddies need even more help at the earlier stages of their training? If a camera truly is not an increase in distraction for you, why not add one as soon as you graduate AFF? In your case where would you draw the line?

>knowing my own limitations and by making the camera my smallest priority
>on my skydives, was I being reckless and/or unsafe in starting at 120
>jumps?

IMO, the risks of adding a camera at 120 jumps GREATLY outweigh the benefits. It's great to get cool video for your pals, but you are putting yourself at a much higher level of risk by doing so.

[GaVak 0]

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I think a lot of times people don't realize how much of a distraction the camera is. Sure at first you're just gonna turn it on and forget it. I assume you have no indicator light so you just hope you turned it on before exit.

I got the hypoxic attachment for this reason. I push a button on my head twice and I'm done with my camera for the rest of the jump. Once when I put my gear on at 11k, second press when the door light comes one.

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Until you notice you're always looking too low so you fix that on the next jump by looking above what you want to see ... the cameras change our behavior.

In 30 jumps I haven't made any of these adjustments. I'm not trying to be a videographer -- I'm not ready for that discipline yet. I'm just flying RW with a camera on my head. I point my head where I always do in my skydive. A great view if I'm diving to a formation; a very boring view of the top of the guy across from me's helmet when in a base. Like clockwork, you get the flash of my altimeter center stage every 6-10 seconds.

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The idea behind a 200-jump recommendation (which is an absolute minimum for those that are current and on top of their game) is for building in awareness and good habits before letting a camera create poor awareness and bad habits.

I truly believe that many people would improve their flying skills by removing the camera for a while. Even if they don't think it's distracting them.

The reason for posting my first-hand experience on this matter is not to question the 200 jump recommendation; it’s just to highlight that as with most restrictions in the world, once size doesn’t fit all. Personally, I would suggest having a coaching requirement similar to the A-license track vs. a black and white line in the dirt at a 200 jump number. Most of the posts I’ve read on this site before getting my camera seem to be cased around individuals ‘aware’ of their camera while jumping and forgetting their basics: altitude awareness, proximity to other jumpers, basic gear checks, flare BEFORE the ground, etc. To me, these camera users were ‘trying to fly video’, which is not the same as skydiving with a camera on your head. Frankly, I’d be far more nervous of some young kid with 250 jumps bouncing up and down with his new camera talking about how bad-ass of a videographer he was going to be, how awesome his videos were going to be, and oh by the way could he jump with our 4-way while promising he wouldn’t “get in the way” than someone I know to be a level headed jumper with 100 jumps putting a camera on their head to help with 2-way drill debriefs.

I'm an analytical person, and have taken a very methodic approach to the sport. While many of my friends have shifted to free flying, are playing around with front riser inputs, or are chasing some other skydiving skill, I’ve stuck to belly and RW. I’m one of the only people at my DZ with a RW suit with booties. I received my coach rating two weekends ago so that I will have the ability to better my belly and observation skills while helping new students get ready for group skydiving. I have another helmet for these jumps – I don’t want to develop lazy free-fall observation skills and depending on camera footage for my debriefings. The camera is for when I'm more focused on my skydive than the other jumpers -- say when I'm trying to learn a new maneuver like a faster center point turn with my knees

I plan to take my time in the sport. At around 250 jumps, I want to start learning the basics of free flying. Once I’m comfortable with my ability to hold a slot in a sit and can transition from sit to back to belly without sliding all over the place THEN I plan to start learning the camera flying discipline. Knowing me, I’ll be at 350+ jumps before I’m offering to ‘fly video’ for another groups RW jump.

Skydiving safety is important to me. I would have loved to do a night jump three months ago at my home DZ – but as I was still renting gear of various sizes, I elected not to do so because I was not confident in the flight characteristics of any one set of gear to say I could make the jump safely. In conversations on downsizing canopies, I’m one of the proponents of not going smaller. Just last weekend, I was first in the door and ended up taking everyone for a longish spot because a cloud was obscuring the DZ below me and I wouldn’t let my group out of the door.

In my subjective skydiving experience, I would say getting an RW suit with booties impacted my skydive far more dramatically than mounting a camera on my helmet and adding a few button presses to my skydive. Certainly not to the order of the 'I did something very risky' and 'just happened to get lucky this time' type posts I've seen on this topic.

~Gav

Life doesn't need reasons, just participants.

D.S.#21

[pilotdave 0]

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I'm not trying to be a videographer -- I'm not ready for that discipline yet.

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I received my coach rating two weekends ago so that I will have the ability to better my belly and observation skills while helping new students get ready for group skydiving. I have another helmet for these jumps – I don’t want to develop lazy free-fall observation skills and depending on camera footage for my debriefings. The camera is for when I'm more focused on my skydive than the other jumpers -- say when I'm trying to learn a new maneuver like a faster center point turn with my knees

My opinon is just different from yours. I think you're doing it backwards. The camera is an AMAZING tool for coaches. You said you wear a camera specifically to help your friends improve. Why not your students? If you're not ready to be a videographer, you're not ready to jump a camera. It's that simple. You're adding the camera when you're trying something new. You should be leaving the camera on the ground for those jumps and (if you're ready for a camera) adding it when you can put it to good use.

Dave

[billvon 2,422]

>I got the hypoxic attachment for this reason.

So now you have a light to pay attention to. That's a minus in my book; yet another small increment of attention to subtract from your awareness in freefall.

>I'm not trying to be a videographer -- I'm not ready for that discipline yet.
>I'm just flying RW with a camera on my head. I point my head where I
>always do in my skydive.

This is the big red warning flag for me, and I've heard in a lot of other areas.

"Maybe I'm not 100% ready for high performance landings with this canopy, but I have decided to fly it super conservatively and safely until I have more experience and I can swoop it."

"Maybe I don't have 200 jumps, but I'm just jumping an old Birdman Classic on a solo, and they're barely wingsuits! It's just tracking for crying out loud."

They are making a big mistake in assuming that in both those cases, nothing much is really changing. The canopy is just like their old canopy if they're "careful." The wingsuit is just like tracking as long as they're not flocking. History has shown both of those statements to be optimistic at best, deadly at worst.

>Knowing me, I’ll be at 350+ jumps before I’m offering to ‘fly video’ for
>another groups RW jump.

I gotta say you are really doing this backwards. One of the most dangerous kinds of video you can do is lowtimer POV video; loss of altitude awareness, collisions and separation problems have all occurred on such dives. And in my experience, the more adamant a person is that they will just "turn it on and forget about it" the less they are able to manage the additional distraction.

By contrast, videoing a good 4-way team is one of the BEST ways to learn to do video. You have a 4-way team that will not be geeking you, that will give you a clear and unambiguous breakoff, and that will not notice your antics. They will not chase you if you drift off. They will not adjust their fallrate to match yours or try to dock on you. They will not be drifting all over the place. They will usually refuse to let you video their openings. They will clear their own airspace to the extent they always do, and that gives you clear airspace above them. About the worst thing you can do to them on exit is to land on them, and they'll be used to that.

If I were you, I'd wait until I felt I was ready to do the safest of camera jumps - then start there.

[Scrumpot 1]

+1. On each point.

However unfortunately, most likely - good advice, yet again - as we've so often seen, TIME & TIME AGAIN - to be simply either ignored, discounted, and in any case - probably wasted.

FWIW.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[davelepka 4]

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The reason for posting my first-hand experience on this matter is not to question the 200 jump recommendation;

Your experience is incomplete. First you have to make it to 200 jumps incident free with your camera before you can claim success at being 'ahead of the curve'.

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I plan to take my time in the sport.

How can you claim this, but have already hit the 'fast forward' button on jumping a camera?

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Skydiving safety is important to me.

How can you claim this, but have already hit the 'fast forward' button on jumping a camera?

If skydiving safety was really important to you, you would follow the USPA reccomendation, realizing that people who know far more than you wrote things down for a reason.

You're in a very dangerous position because you think you're taking it slow and being safe, when in reality you are not. You may feel as if things will be OK, but the 'proof is in the pudding' as they say, and your pudding won't be ready until AFTER you have survived your 'accelerated' behavior. As of right now, your success remains to be seen.

How is it that you have managed to compartmentalized your jumping such that you can both bust the USPA reccomendation, and claim to be taking it slow and safe? Is it some sort of denial? Are you choosing to ignore the obvious contradiction or your actions vs your words?