Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not?

[rhanold 0]

Very well said Billvon.

[rehmwa 2]

Guys - I'm thinking of wearing gloves on my skydives. I've found a nice tight pair of skydiving gloves (summer) and they fit nice and I can feel all my handles and even pick up a dime off of a table with them on.

I'm worried. I only have 3500 skydives and that I just don't know what I don't know.

Am I ready to wear gloves on a skydive?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Butters 0]

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Guys - I'm thinking of wearing gloves on my skydives. I've found a nice tight pair of skydiving gloves (summer) and they fit nice and I can feel all my handles and even pick up a dime off of a table with them on.

I'm worried. I only have 3500 skydives and that I just don't know what I don't know.

Am I ready to wear gloves on a skydive?

Depends, are you a little girl? Because only little girls wear gloves in the summer.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[azureriders 0]

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Guys - I'm thinking of wearing gloves on my skydives. I've found a nice tight pair of skydiving gloves (summer) and they fit nice and I can feel all my handles and even pick up a dime off of a table with them on.

I'm worried. I only have 3500 skydives and that I just don't know what I don't know.

Am I ready to wear gloves on a skydive?

depends, are they going to be a distraction?

I have had to pull for one aff student, who during early winter was making his first jump with gloves and said they were the reason he could not find his handle. Truth was he was amped up and flailing all over the handle, I knew something was wierding him out but did not khow what at the time. All he had to do was slow down and PULL. After talking to him on the ground it seems he was really nervous about the gloves and just would not say anything. This was a level 5 skydive.

I get your drift, if 200 for camera, 200 for wingsuits, how many for gloves, and whats next? However I dont see how it meaningfully effects this debate. Just because gloves are not a distraction to 99.999% of skydivers, does not change the fact that a camera is a distraction to 99.999% of them.

[davelepka 4]

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Guys - I'm thinking of wearing gloves on my skydives. I've found a nice tight pair of skydiving gloves (summer) and they fit nice and I can feel all my handles and even pick up a dime off of a table with them on.

I'm worried. I only have 3500 skydives and that I just don't know what I don't know.

Am I ready to wear gloves on a skydive?

Maybe, but you should be sure to not wear shoes because you just stuk your foot in your mouth.

As much as you try to make a joke of it, gloves have been directly linked to more than one fatality. The gril in Perris last year who was a no-pull whiel wearing multiple pairs of gloves, and I recall a camera guy who put swoop cords under his gloves, and couldn't free his hands in time to deal with a problem (brake fire, I think). In both cases proper training in the selection and use of skydiving gloves could have prevented both fatalities.

Just like gloves, there are guidelines surrounding the proper selection and use of a camera in skydiving. Just like jumping in gloves is different then walking in gloves, jumping with a camera is different than filming your kids B-day party with a camera.

[dgskydive 0]

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you elitist types are the very ones that drive newer jumpers from sticking with the sport for sure.

Bill is not an elitist. LOL. Bill is one of the kindest and nicest people you will ever meet. He is very logical as well. Bill would give a person the rig of his back for months if they needed it.

If Bill or anyone else runs of a newbie for trying to keep them safe and alive, then i say run them off. The lessons learned in this sport are learned in blood and broken bones. People that think they know better then the very experienced jumpers that has seen it and done it are the problem.

Go hang out at a big DZ for a year. Then come back and say that Bill is an elitist. You will wonder why a tool S&TA at a small 182 dz is giving people bad advice.

FTR, I like small 182 DZ's they remind me of the place that I learned at. Great friends and a lot of fun. We thought we had all the answer though. We thought that our S&TA was a very safe guy. Yeah, well he is dead and so are about 6 or 7 others from that DZ. Great people living in a very small skydiving bubble though. You can only teach what you know. Truth is that most small dz's do not have very experienced staff. Oh they may be good at dropping static line students, but most of them are more full of themselves then these Elitists you speak of on here.

Dom

[rehmwa 2]

I was really hoping it wouldn't be you on this one. Pick your battles Dave - you are a great role model with good advice - but I worry about 'boy that cries wolf syndrome' to caution people to step back about everything. Thanks for proving the point.

No one will listen to good advice when you dilute it with the same response no matter what the subject is.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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I get your drift, if 200 for camera, 200 for wingsuits, how many for gloves, and whats next? However I dont see how it meaningfully effects this debate. Just because gloves are not a distraction to 99.999% of skydivers, does not change the fact that a camera is a distraction to 99.999% of them.

AGREED - but I'm seeing a trend here.

I'd rather just write off the posting ego-wonders with 100 jumps that want to downsize, jump camera, BASE, wingsuit and just send them off to their local mentors (or send their local experienced crowd after them directly to handle it - except the wunderkind have to admit who they are and where they jump for us to do that)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GaVak 0]

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Your experience is incomplete. First you have to make it to 200 jumps incident free with your camera before you can claim success at being 'ahead of the curve'.

I never claimed I was ahead of any curve -- I was simply giving my subjective perspective as it related to jumping with a camera.

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I plan to take my time in the sport.

I mean that I want to focus one specific discipline at a time and not burn out by hopping between them all without learning anything properly first. I'll not belabor the point I tried make that I'm capable of separating doing RW with a camera on my head and jumping to fly video -- it's apparently impossible.

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You're in a very dangerous position because you think you're taking it slow and being safe, when in reality you are not. You may feel as if things will be OK, but the 'proof is in the pudding' as they say, and your pudding won't be ready until AFTER you have survived your 'accelerated' behavior. As of right now, your success remains to be seen.

How is it that you have managed to compartmentalized your jumping such that you can both bust the USPA reccomendation, and claim to be taking it slow and safe? Is it some sort of denial? Are you choosing to ignore the obvious contradiction or your actions vs your words?

The primary saftey issue camera flying presents is loss of awareness -- I addressed the concern by making the camera on my head the least important part of my skydive. 30 jumps and running, I do my entire jump without the thought of a camera being on my head crossing my mind until I turn it off on the ground.

It works for me -- it hasn't changed my skydive but for 3 button presses. If it has somehow made my skydiving less safe, or changed it in any manner, then I'm under a pretty good self induced subjective illusion that it hasn't. What parts of my dive flow should I examin for the potentially lethal addition? Or will it be the rays of sunlight that reflect off the lens and burn my eyes out I need to be concerned with?

I don't care much for absolutes, and I feel like I'm banging my 'it hasn't distracted me' against an insurmountable wall of 'it must distract you, plus or minus suffering'. Why is it so untenable that someone can put a camera on their head and not think about it during a skydive?

Regardless -- you have my word I will update this forum if/when/how my camera impacted my skydive -- and of when I start jumping with the intent to film as the function of the skydive.

~Gav

Life doesn't need reasons, just participants.

D.S.#21

[beowulf 1]

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Why is it so untenable that someone can put a camera on their head and not think about it during a skydive?

There are examples of people who said the exact same thing as you. I said the same thing when I started jumping with a camera. Cameras are a distraction. You can get away with it without causing yourself any problems. But there are many examples where it did cause a problem. Having less then 200 jumps makes it more difficult to deal with any issues that might arise.

[artard 0]

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Why is it so untenable that someone can put a camera on their head and not think about it during a skydive?

Why is it so hard to consider the possibility that you are still so inexperienced that you have no idea what you're talking about

http://www.mixcloud.com/prajna
http://vimeo.com/avidya

[topdocker 0]

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It works for me -- it hasn't changed my skydive but for 3 button presses. If it has somehow made my skydiving less safe, or changed it in any manner, then I'm under a pretty good self induced subjective illusion that it hasn't. What parts of my dive flow should I examin for the potentially lethal addition? Or will it be the rays of sunlight that reflect off the lens and burn my eyes out I need to be concerned with?

I don't care much for absolutes, and I feel like I'm banging my 'it hasn't distracted me' against an insurmountable wall of 'it must distract you, plus or minus suffering'. Why is it so untenable that someone can put a camera on their head and not think about it during a skydive?

Regardless -- you have my word I will update this forum if/when/how my camera impacted my skydive -- and of when I start jumping with the intent to film as the function of the skydive.

~Gav

Gav

You are the exact reason that those with more experience bang their head on the wall saying, "Why don't they listen?"

Stop fooling yourself, put the camera in your gear bag and get more experience. The fact that you have to come here and defend yourself against so much experience shows you are a danger to yourself. People with thousands of jumps are telling you something and you chose to ignore them, people with tens of thousands of jumps have helped write the recommendations and you chose to ignore them.

Last thought, what example are you setting for jumpers coming up? if you are a coach, then you should lead by example, not showing them how to ignore safety recommendations.

top

Jump more, post less!

[yoink 321]

Going. Round. In. Circles.


It's finally sunk in. It's taken a while, but then I guess I'm a slow learner...
The guys that are jumping camera ahead of the 200 jump recommendation will just continue to insist that it's not distracting them, it's not altering their skydive in any way, that they can handle it, and that all the old fuddy-duddies are just holding them back.


Congratulations. This thread has sucessfully finally crushed my will to try and pass on any advice.

[airtwardo 6]

I was simply giving my subjective extremely limited perspective as it related to jumping with a camera.

You're gonna do what you're gonna do, so just do it and chop the the endless justification.

Having said that, try to keep in mind that overlooking a recommendation regarding safety is not a pattern to get into.

You feel as though you can and do handle the tasks you assign your self during a skydive and that's great. What you're not seeing the the 'possibilities' others with more experience have seen and dealt with.

You seem like a smart enough guy, and hopefully you ARE taking a better approach than what's being perceived...but seriously, step back for a second and try to understand that you're only being subjective within the limits of your experience. To me it seems you're either not seeing that, or you're not giving that enough weight as you go about making some decisions.

We ALL have egos, how we deal with them is what's important.

Don't think guys like BillVon are being egomaniacal when they make these suggestions and remarks, if they didn't care about you they would just walk away...and don't let YOUR ego start writing checks you're not ready to cash.
~By that I mean, the next step of someone in your position is to want to improve...anyone WITH an ego does.

You're looking at your video product and whether consciously or not, your realizing things you can do to make them better...that's where the distraction comes in, and it WILL!

What you are doing is adding an unnessessary link in the disaster chain, often people do that and get away with it, but seriously...why even throw the dice in that game until you have built up a stronger foundation to fall back on 'just in case' ya come up Craps one of these days.

IF.....you're still in it to win it, ten years from now, you WILL look back on what you're saying here and wonder...what WAS I thinking?!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DARK 0]

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Are you ruling out the fact that..

A: Shit does happen, and has always been happening to these jumpers in the 1-200 jump range regardless of a camera?

B: The camera played a direct role in what happened and would absolutely not have happened if the camera was not present?

Just because a teen gets in a car wreck does not mean a cell phone caused ALL the wrecks happening to teens because one just happened to be in the car at that time, teens have been getting in car wrecks for years.....BUT factors in some no argument there

I'm not pushing for anyone jumping a camera before 200. I just know you seem to be heading the torch and pitchfork mob. Just wondering how you are analyzing things and if you are padding the "incident list" because you feel so strongly about the subject.

Just don't want everyone who gets a stubbed toe, or anything that could have happened to anyone getting on your "camera list" when it would have happened to anyone regardless if a camera was strapped to their head or not.

I'm all for safety(part of my job in the fire service) and don't want to see ANYONE on ANY "list", so I agree with the cause, but would hate to see fake inflated reports.

If a teen is in a car wreck and an open cell phone is found on the floor of the car, there is no way to absolutely rule in or out, that the cell phone played a role.

Read back in the past years of all the guys that thought small canopies weren't playing much of a role in the increase in low turn incidents. There is still no way to absolutely rule that these guys that died wouldn't have hooked it in under a 210 either.

Usually, where there is smoke there is fire, no?

your example of the low turn issue is not like for like

downsizing, learning to swoop, turning low and impacting are very obviously connected

putting on the same helmet you have for the last however many jumps with a camera on it and then misrouting your chest strap or not cocking your pilot chute or getting too close to someone under canopy are not things that are very obviously connected and are things that people without cameras do all the time.

the appearance of an increase in incidents could just be as a result of the fact that you have started to compile a list.

your list certainly shows the reasons for not jumping with a camera before 200 jumps (low timers do stupid things all the time) it dosnt necessarily show any increase in these incidents as a result of these cameras though and to suggest it does is wrong imo

again i think most people should wait until at least 200 and everyone should ask their peers at their home dropzone

[Shakey 0]

An excellent and insightful post, Twardo. But, in the interest of stirring the pot, I just gotta ask...

If these cameras were available back when you had 50 jumps, would you have strapped one on?

...and if some old DZ fuddy duddy told you to "take off that dag-gumb camera b'fer you kill yerself," would you have listened?

[wmw999 2,121]

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again i think most people should wait until at least 200 and everyone should ask their peers at their home dropzone

And if you're doing it early, with or without approval, for pete's sake don't trumpet it all over DZ.com to show how cool or mad-skillzed you are. That is a strike against the judgment level as a rule.

Just keep doing your thing, learn, and don't fuck up.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DARK 0]

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again i think most people should wait until at least 200 and everyone should ask their peers at their home dropzone

And if you're doing it early, with or without approval, for pete's sake don't trumpet it all over DZ.com to show how cool or mad-skillzed you are. That is a strike against the judgment level as a rule.

Just keep doing your thing, learn, and don't fuck up.

Wendy P.

yep i kinda agree im not sure what side icome down on as far as dz.com goes. i think the people in the know here have an obligation to post helpfull and relevant information to any question asked (if they are going to reply at all)

which suggest that if someone with 150 jumps and is wearing a camera either way asks for advice on his gear check procedure or whatever now that he has a camera they should give the relevant advice

BUT they also have to give safe advice which suggests they should go with what they feel is safe and if that is tell them they should not be thinking about this until 200 jumps then they have an obligation to say this ASWELL

its a tough one for sure

[topdocker 0]

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...and if some old DZ fuddy duddy told you to "take off that dag-gumb camera b'fer you kill yerself," would you have listened?

Back in the day, you wouldn't be asked to remove your camera....

some up jumper would have ripped that Go-Pro off your lowtime helmet, stomped on it with French Paracommander boots, and then make you stand before the entire DZ asking for forgiveness. Maybe you'd end up with a nickname like "Little dick camera Bob" or "My camera is as big as my brain George."

After 200 jumps and proving yourself air worthy, he would still make fun of you and lick the lens when you weren't looking. But he would still keep an eye on you.

So it shows, the old-timers are nicer these days!

top

Jump more, post less!

[Shakey 0]

Maybe that would have been true at your DZ, Top, but I get the feeling that Twardo's first DZ was a little more informal than most. Besides, my question was mostly an attempt to get another "back in the day" story out of him.

While we are on the subject, though, I still want to know why people think the SIM says there is a "200 jump minimum" for flying a camera. There is a bunch of good info in SIM 6-8, and there is a recommendation that is related to having 200 jumps, but I can't find a section that says "thou shalt have 200 jumps before flying a camera."

I figure that if someone is going to beat a guy up with the rule book, it's a good idea to have read the darn thing first.

[airtwardo 6]

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...and if some old DZ fuddy duddy told you to "take off that dag-gumb camera b'fer you kill yerself," would you have listened?

Back in the day, you wouldn't be asked to remove your camera....

some up jumper would have ripped that Go-Pro off your lowtime helmet, stomped on it with French Paracommander boots, and then make you stand before the entire DZ asking for forgiveness. Maybe you'd end up with a nickname like "Little dick camera Bob" or "My camera is as big as my brain George."

After 200 jumps and proving yourself air worthy, he would still make fun of you and lick the lens when you weren't looking. But he would still keep an eye on you.

So it shows, the old-timers are nicer these days!

top

As a matter of fact our pilot, ole D-288 grabbed my hook knife in the aeroplane once, and cut off this really cutesie red silk scarf my GF had tied onto the back of my hocky helmet.

"If yer looking for a way to foul up deployment, that's a good one... IDIOT!"

And I can't count the times I'd seen a blast handle pulled and the cable snipped while the jumper was wearing the rig!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[azureriders 0]

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Section 6-8—Camera Flying Recommendations
E. Procedures
1. General
a. Prior to jumping, a skydiver should have enough
general jump experience to be able to handle any
skydiving emergency or minor problem easily and
without stress.
b. A camera flyer should possess freefall flying
skills well above average and applicable to the
planned jump.
(1) belly-to-earth
(2) freeflying (upright and head-down)
(3) canopy formation
(4) multiple (for skysurfing, filming student
training jumps, etc.)
c. A USPA C license is recommended.
d. The jumper should have made at least 50 recent
jumps on the same parachute equipment to be
used for camera flying,
e. The camera flyer should know the experience and
skills of all the jumpers in the group.
f. Deployment:
(1) The deployment altitude should allow time to
deal with the additional equipment and its
associated problems.
(2) The camera flyer must remain aware of other
jumpers during deployment.
g. Each camera flyer should conduct a complete
camera and parachute equipment check before
rigging up, before boarding the plane, and again
prior to exit.
h. Camera jumps should be approached procedurally,
with the same routine followed on every jump.
i. The priorities on the jump should be the
parachute equipment and procedures first, then
the camera equipment and procedures.
j. Introduce only one new variable (procedure or
equipment) at a time.
k. A camera jump requires additional planning and
should never be considered just another skydive

Quoted from the SIM. I was only going to site the bold underlined items but after skimming through it I decided the whole section was worthy of being in this thread.

Yes it does say C license, so we are now be to forgiving, only gripping about those who do not have 200 jumps, which is only one of the requirements of a "C"???

And I promise you, I have read the book, front to back. I don’t know if that is a good thing, and I am sure I won't get any cool points for it, but I have.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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d. The jumper should have made at least 50 recent jumps on the same parachute equipment to be used for camera flying,

My guess is that if you have 150 jumps and are flying a camera, you're also downsizing rapidly???

Bill... You may want to try some gloves with the fingers cut off to "ease" your way into jumping gloves.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[dgskydive 0]

[jrjny 0]

I've read through most of the fatality reports over the past 5 years (on this site) and I can't recall one where anyone (experience level aside) died from losing altitude awareness OR having a MAL that originated due to or was enhanced by, a camera.

Many were due to CRW wrap issues (latest parachutist mag as well) or swooping related issues...then equipment related mals. IF I also recall, a recent parachutist magazine detailed there being the fewest incidents among A and B licensed jumpers.

This seems to suggest either (a) higher number jumpers are more dangerous or (b) the odds of fucking up increase over time, which is really a subset of option A or (c) there are more experienced jumpers to fuck up. But I digress.



Where are the recommendations or BSR's around swooping and CRW? Honest question...



For all the anecdotes posted here, I'd point to the classic post hoc reasoning error - he pulled low or forgot to pull and had a camera, therefore the camera caused it. It might be true, it might not be true. That's not the issue though.

Just because you have more or less jumps doesn't mean you're more or less entitled to control what you or others do...I think people lose sight of that fact and tend to get myopic or think jumping is some sacred practice where licenses and jump numbers are like sacraments and levels of some priesthood lol.

If you want to jump with a camera and have <200 jumps, go somewhere where no one cares and let them see the revenue. Last I checked most DZ's are held harmless regardless of what happens whether a camera or 'act of god'.

Focus on constructive advice about how to fly with cameras: get an audible or 2, remove snag points, look at the ground itself...

Jeff