Go Pro- Is it a Camera or not?

[ridestrong 1]

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Sounds like all 3 of you were jumping solo but somehow in proximity of each other??? Maybe you guys need to work on your exit separation.

ETA: also, by your report it sounds like the RW guy also didn't thoroughly check his airspace before pulling.

Not a remotely accurate assumption. Merely evidence that you have no clue what you have no idea about....

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That said...what should the RW guy do when he's at 3K and sees another body from a different stick falling towards him as he's deploying?

If he's at 3K and worried that the other jumper will collide with him then he may want to use the next 5 sec or 1K to get some distance from the potential collision. Especially if that other jumper is directly above.

In this particular situation you mentioned you said the other jumper was below. In which case he may want to pull immediately to avoid falling into the low guy who may deploy without paying further attention.

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How should he have cleared his airspace "better?"

I usually do a 'scan' of my airspace before pulling, probably even more so if I'm jumping solo, as I likely have more time since I'm not busy tracking away from other jumpers I know are there.

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Should he stop his deployment and track?

Yes, if he hasn't already pulled and collision is imminent.

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Which way should he track?

Which ever way will give him the quickest/greatest separation.

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You have a better alternative to the low man rule?

Doesn't mean low man shouldn't check his airspace before pulling.

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How does the first stick out "work on exit separation" in mid-jump?
Is the first stick out responsible in any way for exit separation?

No first stick out is not responsible for the following exit separation, but he/she should be conscious that it's not always followed to a 't' unfortunately, and may still want to be aware of their own airspace as best as possible.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Hellis 0]

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I usually do a 'scan' of my airspace before pulling

I would say that is much harder than you would think.
I had a jump a few weeks ago where i was going to video two people doing RW.
On the jumprun the tandem decided to exit before us, and that suprised us alot.
Because of i knew we had tandem below us i held my head in the direction where the RW was going on and i scaned for the tandem with my eyes, it took me quite some time to find the tandem.
And keep in mind, a tandem is much easier to find than a normal jumper because of the drouge.

Unless you have keept your eyes on the previous group all the time during your jump, i would say its luck if you find them

[ridestrong 1]

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I usually do a 'scan' of my airspace before pulling

I would say that is much harder than you would think.
I had a jump a few weeks ago where i was going to video two people doing RW.
On the jumprun the tandem decided to exit before us, and that suprised us alot.
Because of i knew we had tandem below us i held my head in the direction where the RW was going on and i scaned for the tandem with my eyes, it took me quite some time to find the tandem.
And keep in mind, a tandem is much easier to find than a normal jumper because of the drouge.

Unless you have keept your eyes on the previous group all the time during your jump, i would say its luck if you find them

1. Obviously that jump order was f'd up by either you guys or the tandem, automatically making that a unique scenario. If that had happened to me then I would have probably changed my dive to a tracking dive or at least would have done a higher pull than normal, assuming I/we were in the last group out. In addition I would have provided a lot of separation time.

2. I said I 'scan' my airspace... I didn't say I look for every group or jumper that was out before me, that would be ridiculous.

ETA: I wasn't there for your situation so I'm not saying I think you guys did any thing wrong or unsafe. Didn't mean to be a dick head.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[DARK 0]

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If this is the impression you get from your local buddies, you should check if they wear their helmets all of the time, and not just while jumping.

Let's realize that the 'official book' is the same book that was referenced when ALL of your local peers and mentors learned to jump. They're still alive, still jumping, and are skilled enough to have your respect, but not the book?

How about the same book that was used when EVERY instructor on your DZ, who taught you and everyone else there, became an instructor? The book seemed to work out just fine for them, and in turn for you when they made you a skydiver, but now the book just sucks, right?

you seem to be under the impression that i dont like the sim, thats not what i meant, its great, i just meant most fun jumpers iv met never look at a sim after a certain point in their careers unless they are studying for a rating but they are constantly listening to the advice of their peers. im not saying this is right its just the way it appears to be

[diablopilot 2]

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ETA: also, by your report it sounds like the RW guy also didn't thoroughly check his airspace before pulling.

Did you really just write that?

You need to stop jumping. Now.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DSE 3]

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ETA: I wasn't there for your situation so I'm not saying I think you guys did any thing wrong or unsafe. Didn't mean to be a dick head.

Actually, you did say exactly that.

You cannot reasonably expect to see someone in your airspace at pull time if they were not part of your stick.
They may well not be able to see you, either.
Lemme guess....you barrel roll before you deploy?

We can debate this point over and over again...but the bottom line is that hundreds of thousands of jumps, a hundred plus years of experience, and dozens of actual incidents, near-incidents, and even your own attitude and experience demonstrate exactly why the recommendation exists.

I understand you feel you're uniquely talented and can manage a camera on your head. Curiously enough, you've already proven that a camera distracted you enough to cutaway your helmet before you cutaway your canopy, and counted on your RSL to pull for you.

For most people, that would set off significant alarms.

[ridestrong 1]

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ETA: also, by your report it sounds like the RW guy also didn't thoroughly check his airspace before pulling.

Did you really just write that?

You need to stop jumping. Now.

Why is that so off the wall? Just cause your jumping solo you don't need to check your airspace before pulling? Guess there wouldn't be much point in waving off either..

ETA: I realize the the RW guy wasn't jumping solo (unless he was doing solo RW ), but I still maintain he should be aware of his own airspace before pulling.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Just edit your dropzone.com profile to say you have 200 jumps

[ridestrong 1]

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...but the bottom line is that hundreds of thousands of jumps, a hundred plus years of experience, and dozens of actual incidents, near-incidents, and even your own attitude and experience demonstrate exactly why the recommendation exists.

I understand you feel you're uniquely talented and can manage a camera on your head. Curiously enough, you've already proven that a camera distracted you enough to cutaway your helmet before you cutaway your canopy, and counted on your RSL to pull for you.

For most people, that would set off significant alarms.

Yep I saw that coming... you asked me a set of basic questions, that I gave basic and reasonable answers to and that is your response.


I will be the first to admit that I like to debate these issues with you guys because I do learn more, and I guess I manage to push some buttons along the way... but when it comes to how highly I think of my self and skydiving, I'm no "better" than the guy or girl doing their first solo jump off AFF.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Heatmiser 0]

1st and foremost, If you're the high guy at 3000 feet and a collision is imminent, you don't immediately pitch to gain "vertical separation." The second your PC comes out, you've lost all directional control. If you snivel, and the low guy has a quicker opening, then you have a decent chance at a canopy collision. High man is the one that continues to track away and opens lower.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[azureriders 0]

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1st and foremost, If you're the high guy at 3000 feet and a collision is imminent, you don't immediately pitch to gain "vertical separation." The second your PC comes out, you've lost all directional control. If you snivel, and the low guy has a quicker opening, then you have a decent chance at a canopy collision. High man is the one that continues to track away and opens lower.

I was on a formation dive where that exact situation killed a friend of mine

Good advice.

[kkeenan 13]

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... but when it comes to how highly I think of my self and skydiving, I'm no "better" than the guy or girl doing their first solo jump off AFF.

I guess in the sense that "We are all created equal...", that may be true. But if your skydiving is no better now than when you came off AFF, then that doesn't say much for your desire to progress in this sport.

So far in this discussion, you, Mr. Ridestrong, have stretched every point to argue in your favor. You have argued with every person who has tried to share their experience with you. You are coming off as a whining pissant, who simply wants to justify your own thinking without regard to the facts and the collective experience and observations of people who have been doing this stuff far longer than you have. Your reasoning and discussion skills have been similar to those of a spoiled kid who has all the reasons in the world why he should get his way. It has become very tiresome to read anything that you post. Give it a fucking rest.

Kevin Keenan
Florida

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Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[JimGoFast 0]

Wow! What an interesting thread to read :)

So I'm a newbie to the sport in terms of jump numbers and currently am flying with a GoPro strapped to my head and occasionally my ankle (flame away). I only have 105 jumps but both my DZO and my S&TA have signed off and briefed me on EP's and other various hazards. They both felt that after jumping with me that I was "heads-up" enough with my situational awareness, jump routine, and everything else to allow me to "start small" so to speak.

I only bring that up to say that the recommendation of 200 jumps is just that...It's a recommendation. Everything about it is good, wise, and there to protect not just the one flying camera, but in my opinion and more importantly the others you share the blue skies with.

I know people who have 800 jumps that I don't even like to jump with because they are scary ash @#$! to jump with, and I also know people with 150-200+ jumps that give more heed to safety and also are "heads-up" as it pertains to awareness and emergency procedures. Before I get my head torn off, I know that with jump numbers come muscle memory, and quicker reactions to adverse situations, but we aren't all cast from the same mold either. Some people pick things up quicker and have that ability, some don't.

So should people with less than 200 jumps be able to fly camera? Yes. The USPA says that someone with only 100 jumps can be a Coach and jump with someone in the sky who has only 8 AFF jumps...But no S&TA in their right mind will sign off on that rating unless the individual has demonstrated their ability to make good decisions for both their sake and the students sake. Same applies to the Camera. At the end of the day it's more up to the DZO and the S&TA to ensure that people aren't being morons. The USPA aren't the police...they are just there to collect money...whoops did I say that out loud? How about all the DZ's and S&TA's do a better job of ensuring that the wrong people aren't flying camera too early.

With that, you can all flame me riiiiiiiiiiiight.......now!

Just Enjoy The Ride...

[billvon 2,397]

> I only have 105 jumps but both my DZO and my S&TA have signed off and
>briefed me on EP's and other various hazards. They both felt that after
>jumping with me that I was "heads-up" enough with my situational
>awareness, jump routine, and everything else to allow me to "start small"
>so to speak.

That's great; you're a Real Skygod, congratulations. At least you're starting early.

The 200 jump thing isn't an average recommendation for most people. It is a MINIMUM recommendation for exceptional people. Brian Germain ran into the same problem with his list of maximum canopy loadings; people started reading it and saying "oh, I should be under a 135 at my weight and experience, but I have a 150 - better downsize!" Which of course completely misses the point.

In this (and many) areas of skydiving, people push the limits. The result of your experience is that Joe Expert who has 50 jumps, but is really exceptional, can skip the 105 jump limit that less-aware people like you heed. And that will continue to happen until enough people die that we do something about it. It has happened before with depressing regularity; as Spot's list indicates, it's happening again with cameras.

[JimGoFast 0]

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> ....

That's great; you're a Real Skygod, congratulations. At least you're starting early.

The 200 jump thing isn't an average recommendation for most people. It is a MINIMUM recommendation for exceptional people. Brian Germain ran into the same problem with his list of maximum canopy loadings; people started reading it and saying "oh, I should be under a 135 at my weight and experience, but I have a 150 - better downsize!" Which of course completely misses the point.

In this (and many) areas of skydiving, people push the limits. The result of your experience is that Joe Expert who has 50 jumps, but is really exceptional, can skip the 105 jump limit that less-aware people like you heed. And that will continue to happen until enough people die that we do something about it. It has happened before with depressing regularity; as Spot's list indicates, it's happening again with cameras.

Yeah I wasn't "tooting my own horn"...I was using it as an example to show that the decision for jumping with the GoPro camera was not my own in it's entirety. I actually give a crap about my own safety as well as the others around me which is why I didn't just slap on a camera at 50 jumps and rock n' roll...I went through the proper channels and sought the approval of more experienced jumpers.

And Skygod I am not...There was no need for that. I'm just another guy posting an opinion on a thread of opinions...

Just Enjoy The Ride...

[DARK 0]

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> I only have 105 jumps but both my DZO and my S&TA have signed off and
>briefed me on EP's and other various hazards. They both felt that after
>jumping with me that I was "heads-up" enough with my situational
>awareness, jump routine, and everything else to allow me to "start small"
>so to speak.

That's great; you're a Real Skygod, congratulations. At least you're starting early.

The 200 jump thing isn't an average recommendation for most people. It is a MINIMUM recommendation for exceptional people. Brian Germain ran into the same problem with his list of maximum canopy loadings; people started reading it and saying "oh, I should be under a 135 at my weight and experience, but I have a 150 - better downsize!" Which of course completely misses the point.

In this (and many) areas of skydiving, people push the limits. The result of your experience is that Joe Expert who has 50 jumps, but is really exceptional, can skip the 105 jump limit that less-aware people like you heed. And that will continue to happen until enough people die that we do something about it. It has happened before with depressing regularity; as Spot's list indicates, it's happening again with cameras.

your reply is the exact thing i have a problem with in this debate. completely patronising and unreasonable.

he has done everything within his power to ensure he is doing things safely

you have many thousands of jumps and thats great you know what you are talking about clearly but so to does the s+ta and the dzo(they may even have more jumps and experience then you) so why are you automatically correct and they are automatically wrong when you know nothing about this guy besides his jump numbers and they know him personally and probably have been on the dz for every one of his jumps?

why should he take your opinion over theirs? why is your interpretation of the recomendation more valid then theirs?

[Joellercoaster 6]

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why should he take your opinion over theirs? why is your interpretation of the recomendation more valid then theirs?

I've not been in the sport very long, but I've already seen people with many times my jump numbers do stupid shit and suffer the consequences.

I've also seen people who don't know any better use the tacit or explicit approval of some guy with many thousands of jumps as a reason that their doing stupid shit is OK.

You don't take the advice of just the x000 jump person necessarily. But you listen to a bunch of them, and figure out what most of them think.

Your token S&TA isn't just disagreeing with Bill von Novak, who may or may not know anything by comparison. But he's disagreeing with the large majority of people who have bothered to form an opinion.

Sure. It's just a recommendation. Maybe he's right. But I will not jump with a guy with a hundred jumps and a GoPro on his head, even when I'm somewhere the rules allow it. I think I have pretty good reason.

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

[Hellis 0]

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I usually do a 'scan' of my airspace before pulling

I would say that is much harder than you would think.
I had a jump a few weeks ago where i was going to video two people doing RW.
On the jumprun the tandem decided to exit before us, and that suprised us alot.
Because of i knew we had tandem below us i held my head in the direction where the RW was going on and i scaned for the tandem with my eyes, it took me quite some time to find the tandem.
And keep in mind, a tandem is much easier to find than a normal jumper because of the drouge.

Unless you have keept your eyes on the previous group all the time during your jump, i would say its luck if you find them

1. Obviously that jump order was f'd up by either you guys or the tandem, automatically making that a unique scenario. If that had happened to me then I would have probably changed my dive to a tracking dive or at least would have done a higher pull than normal, assuming I/we were in the last group out. In addition I would have provided a lot of separation time.

2. I said I 'scan' my airspace... I didn't say I look for every group or jumper that was out before me, that would be ridiculous.

ETA: I wasn't there for your situation so I'm not saying I think you guys did any thing wrong or unsafe. Didn't mean to be a dick head.

Let me make it a bit more clear.
The door was open, two groups have exited (4 in total, leaving us and tandem), it was the next groups turn to exit, we started moving towards the door when tandems comes pushing hes way infront.

So its not like it was a planned thing, atleast not for us.
The video shows 9 seconds seperation from tandem to our group exits.
I would say that is a rather healthy delay between groups with a turbine plane

No worries, i dont think its at all unreasonable way you responded to this event.
Even if everything worked out fine this time, those who reads this thread and has limited knowledge of normal exitorder might not understand the issues here.
That the pullaltitude of a tandem might be an issue for groups exiting after tandem, and that a larger group drifts more in the wind.
Even if its important to say "You guys fucked up in that lift" (not saying thats the way you said it), its also important to tell those who dont understand why.
But we did leave a big seperation, and in freefall i looked for (and found) the tandem. If i would have thought the tandem was too close i would have tried to get my fellow jumpers attention of the problem.

[JimGoFast 0]

You make a good point about not just listening to the guy/gal with "x000" jumps, but rather listening to multiple people with those numbers. I totally agree with that.

So using that logic, combined with the fact that I jump primarily at a very small DZ, that logic would suggest that I'm in the right for continuing to learn to jump with a camera. I say this simply because not only did my S&TA with over 12,000 jumps approve me (who was also my AFF Instructor), but also the DZO and a number of other people with a good deal of jumps tell me I was good to go.

I personally have not disagreed with the "Large Majority" of people by course of my actions. In fact I made every effort to ensure that I was not putting anyone else in jeopardy due to a misguided decision on both my end and the DZO/S&TA's ends as well.

At the end of the day there are just too many scenarios and variables to come up with a rock solid "this is the way it is" as it pertains to camera flight. The fact that I'm located on a small DZ with 3 other jumpers in the sky at any given time makes my flying a camera "safer" as it would compare to me jumping camera at a place like Elsinore with 21 other jumpers out of the Otter. I would have to agree more with the logic of getting more experience in those regards (Which is why I will NOT jump camera when I jump out at larger DZ's)

As for your reason for not jumping with the "100 jump GoPro guy" I can't blame you. We are in a sport where choices and decisions mean life or death. I would want to trust the person I'm jumping with too as much as I could. Always good to err on the side of caution in my opinion. But what can I possibly know...I only have 100+ jumps. So anything logical or rational no matter how true can't be right since I am not D Licensed right?

Just Enjoy The Ride...

[billvon 2,397]

>he has done everything within his power to ensure he is doing things safely

Well, no, he hasn't. Waiting until 200 jumps is a very simple additional precaution he could take. It's easy, free and without risk. But it does require patience, which is tough for a lot of people.

>you have many thousands of jumps and thats great you know what you
>are talking about clearly but so to does the s+ta and the dzo(they may
>even have more jumps and experience then you) so why are you
>automatically correct and they are automatically wrong when you know
>nothing about this guy besides his jump numbers and they know him
>personally and probably have been on the dz for every one of his jumps?

?? I'm not automatically right and they are not automatically wrong.

>why should he take your opinion over theirs?

He hasn't. He took theirs.

>why is your interpretation of the recomendation more valid then theirs?

Because 105 is less than 200 no matter how many words you post.

And here's today's reason why this is still a bad idea:

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I came across this thread because I recently got in a plane without a rig on. I'm fairly new at camera flying (about 75 total and 20 tandem video jumps). A tandem student was already geared up when they decided they wanted video and I was asked to do it. In my rush to get ready and do the ground interview I had everything ready except my rig. I don't know how long it would've taken me to notice (hopefully I would have) but the engine was running before someone came to the plane and told me.
========================================

[billvon 2,397]

> I actually give a crap about my own safety as well as the others around me
>which is why I didn't just slap on a camera at 50 jumps and rock n' roll...I
>went through the proper channels and sought the approval of more
>experienced jumpers.

That's great. But I would suggest that their judgment should not be a replacement for yours. Jumping camera at half the _minimum_ recommended number of jumps is a very big decision to make, and I'd think you would have to have a really good reason to ignore such a recommendation. (And "everyone says go for it" is not always such a good reason.)

>And Skygod I am not...

I hope that's true. But one of the characteristics of skygods is that they feel that rules, regulations, recommendations, safety procedures etc don't apply to them because they are special; they're not like everyone else. And it sounds like you've made that decision.

[airtwardo 6]

Your token S&TA isn't just disagreeing with Bill von Novak, who may or may not know anything by comparison. But he's disagreeing with the large majority of people who have bothered to form an opinion.

[yoink 321]

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Your token S&TA isn't just disagreeing with Bill von Novak, who may or may not know anything by comparison. But he's disagreeing with the large majority of people who have bothered to form an opinion.

Of course if 'fastJim' has correct info in his profile he's averaging about 20 jumps a year, & that wouldn't make or break the bank and most drop-zone no matter how small.

Skygod AND uncurrent. What other boxes are there on the form?
Inappropriate canopy?

[JimGoFast 0]

Well, I can see that no matter what anyone posts, you will end up simply dissecting what they say and find a way to insult them.

Great job as a moderator. Way to ensure continuity of information within the threads by derailing them into insult sessions...

Just Enjoy The Ride...

[airtwardo 6]

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Your token S&TA isn't just disagreeing with Bill von Novak, who may or may not know anything by comparison. But he's disagreeing with the large majority of people who have bothered to form an opinion.

Of course if 'fastJim' has correct info in his profile he's averaging about 20 jumps a year, & that wouldn't make or break the bank and most drop-zone no matter how small.

Skygod AND uncurrent. What other boxes are there on the form?
Inappropriate canopy?

Blasthandle.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~