Shakey 0 #176 July 1, 2010 Quote That's great; you're a Real Skygod, congratulations. At least you're starting early. The 200 jump thing isn't an average recommendation for most people. It is a MINIMUM recommendation for exceptional people. Brian Germain ran into the same problem with his list of maximum canopy loadings; people started reading it and saying "oh, I should be under a 135 at my weight and experience, but I have a 150 - better downsize!" Which of course completely misses the point. I don't have a horse in this race, I don't fly a camera or have enough experience to give advice about it, but that response, damn. It's only a catchy sig line away from being an automatic post by the DZH Random Forum Post Generator. I have seen two things repeated many times in the short time I've been reading these forums: 1. Experienced people tell new people to get advice from an Instructor/S&TA/DZO at their DZ who is familiar with them and knows their abilities. 2. Complaints from experienced people about new people listening to advice that supports their viewpoint and ignoring advice that disagrees with their viewpoint. JimGoFast did exactly what people suggest with respect to getting advice, he got advice and instruction from two experienced people who know him, and then billvon jumps down his throat because the DZO/S&TA's opinion differs from billvon's opinion. I can't help but point out the irony, considering that billvon wrote the sticky at the top of this forum that says "it is imperative that people reading this board do NOT treat the advice given here as authoritative." FWIW - I believe the S&TA in question has more than 10,000 jumps and 20 years experience. Why not defer to the DZO and S&TA who know JimGoFast, are presumably just as interested in safety, and made a decision based on their DZ and their knowledge of JimGoFast's abilities? Drama aside, I do have an actual question about flying a camera. Many people here refer to a "200 jump recommendation" in the SIM for flying a camera. I have a copy of the 2009-2010 SIM right here and while SIM 6-8(E)(1)(c) does have an experience recommendation, it's not 200 jumps. Did something change? Personally, I think the recommendation in the printed SIM is much more relevant than having 200 jumps. Blues, -Shakey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #177 July 1, 2010 Quote Well, I can see that no matter what anyone posts, you will end up simply dissecting what they say and find a way to insult them. Great job as a moderator. Way to ensure continuity of information within the threads by derailing them into insult sessions... Why would you consider being told something you don't want to hear an insult? If you would read & follow the BSR's you'd know that a thick skin is required equipment following the issuance of the A license! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JimGoFast 0 #178 July 1, 2010 Quote Quote Your token S&TA isn't just disagreeing with Bill von Novak, who may or may not know anything by comparison. But he's disagreeing with the large majority of people who have bothered to form an opinion. Of course if 'fastJim' has correct info in his profile he's averaging about 20 jumps a year, & that wouldn't make or break the bank and most drop-zone no matter how small. Well, made my first few AFF jumps back in 05...stopped because of...well lets just say what stopped me is out of the way. Came back and got licensed this April. So from April to current I've made the 100+ jumps. So very current. And not on a canopy too small since I pay attention to my S&TA... Great example of how some people just assume something based on some stats they see...doesn't explain the whole story...just part of it. I hope I never become that guy that feels he has to belittle someone because of jump numbers...you elitist types are the very ones that drive newer jumpers from sticking with the sport for sure. Anyhow...back to our topic...Go Pro - Is it a Camera or Not?Just Enjoy The Ride... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JimGoFast 0 #179 July 1, 2010 Quote Quote Well, I can see that no matter what anyone posts, you will end up simply dissecting what they say and find a way to insult them. Great job as a moderator. Way to ensure continuity of information within the threads by derailing them into insult sessions... Why would you consider being told something you don't want to hear an insult? If you would read & follow the BSR's you know that a thick skin is required equiptment following the issuance of the A license! It was the comment about the "Skygod" thing is all. I just think that was unnecessary. My skin is plenty thick...but my tolerance for morons who are single sided is not...Just Enjoy The Ride... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #180 July 1, 2010 It takes pictures. It's a camera. And yup, 100 jumps from April to now is pretty current, but people form opinions based on the data that YOU provide. You can't really complain when they do. The skygod comments come because you sound like every other skygod that comes through here. Right down to the 'recommendations, not rules' argument, the 'I've got an experienced mentor' argument, and the 'description of your 'Mad Skillz' that put you ahead of the curve' argument... Search around. See how much you sound like many who have come before you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #181 July 1, 2010 >Well, I can see that no matter what anyone posts, you will end up >simply dissecting what they say and find a way to insult them. Sorry you took it as an insult. But I'm not going to slap people on the back and say "good for you! Great decision, go for it." I think your decision is a mistake. (And make no bones about it, it is YOUR decision; saying other people told you it was OK does not change that fact.) I can't stop you from doing whatever you want to do; all I can do is give advice. You are free to ignore it completely. If you think that my intention is to insult you rather than keep you from getting hurt, then fine; disregard what I said because I'm an asshole, or an evil power-hungry moderator or whatever. I hope that when you hear other people say the same thing often enough, though, that it will at least make you stop and think. And if it does, then this thread will have served its purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JimGoFast 0 #182 July 1, 2010 haha...Calling someone a Skygod is pretty much an insult so yeah. I was insulted by that. In terms of your opinions, I absolutely agree with most of it. There's a balance though between the decision making process as it pertains to the recommendations which by definition leaves room for various factors; hence the fact that they are "recommendations". If you read what I wrote, I said I sought the approval of my S&TA and DZO...This is because I had already made my decision which to clarify, I make no bones about... We have people at the DZ that believe camera flight shouldn't be done until 500 jumps...we have people on the other end of the spectrum...then we have smart people who look at the recommendation of the USPA and the individual and weigh the cost based on the person... Until USPA comes out and says "No Camera flight until minimum 200 Jumps", then it will be nothing more than opinions and there are so many sides to support both pro and con for waiting or not waiting. I liken this to the the Wingsuit flight recommendation.Just Enjoy The Ride... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heatmiser 0 #183 July 1, 2010 Nah, Skygod isn't much of an insult. If he had said, "You're a stoopid mutha fucka, and need to pull your head outa your ass," that would have been an insult. If he had, he would have to tell himself "This is your one warning" and then he woud have argued with himself, and summarily banned himself from this site for a week. What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #184 July 1, 2010 ...you elitist types are the very ones that drive newer jumpers from sticking with the sport for sure. It's by design, keeps the lines short at manifest. And hey n00b, who are YOU to be telling US, who have been around forever... the way to push newer jumpers from the sport? Hell, I've been discouraging skydivers from jumping since, well since before you ever HEARD of gravity! ...Oh and....yeah it's a camera. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JimGoFast 0 #185 July 1, 2010 haha...judging by your profile pic I could tell you were a dusty old fart Just Enjoy The Ride... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #186 July 1, 2010 Quote haha...judging by your profile pic I could tell you were a dusty old fart That's CRUSTY old fart to YOU kid! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,121 #187 July 1, 2010 You're busting the recommended minimum, but with the advice and coaching of locals. Rather than boasting of it (which is really what your original post was doing), and reiterating the "it's only a recommendation" mantra (which has been used to justify countless risky decisions) just do your thing, be careful, and be competent. Eventually you'll be part of the basis of knowledge, either because you hurt yourself or because you didn't. You're not gaining that much in terms of camera competence, because instead of focusing on the freefall skills that will make you able to take really kickass pictures, you're splitting your focus. But that's your decision. The one other thing I'd strongly advise is that since you're introducing a complicating factor (i.e. a camera), that you not introduce any others (like smaller canopy, swooping, aggressive advancement on freeflying, etc) until the camera has been a background skill for 100 jumps. Because by still being in a mode where you're learning life-saving skills, you really, really want to be able to focus on them. Executing is not just being able to cut away and pull your reserve. It's stuff like the near incident in the latest "Cypres" thread in Incidents. Having thought through enough that you can take in the weird stuff and still save yourself. And time really is involved in that. I'll bet you're a better driver than you were when you first got your license. And I'll bet that thought you were a perfectly fine driver when you got your driver's license. It's a complex skill, give it respect. Because it doesn't respect you. Skills never do, and neither does the ground. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #188 July 1, 2010 It's a complex skill, give it respect. Because it doesn't respect you. Skills never do, and neither does the ground. Wendy P. And that makes your pertinent sig line even more applicable ! FastJim~ don't take those posts to you as insulting or elitist, believe me when I say they are not meant to be...no one wants you to quit OR get hurt. Try to understand that when you have been around this wonderful sport long enough, you too will see that same type of argument time & again...sometimes it's a moot point, sometimes there is real tragedy involved. It's just very frustrating to see what is potentially the 'same mistake' made time & again...we often wish we could fire-wire the experiences time and jump numbers have given us, the sometimes horrific images that result from foreseeable circumstance & simple error. After enough time you will come to realize that pushing the 'recommended' limits in any area, really just isn't worth the risk. You seem like a smart enough guy with a great fist name, keep gathering and assessing information & opinions but keep it at the forefront of your decision making that YOU alone are responsible for what you do and thus also the consequences. NOTHING in skydiving is worth getting broken up over or even dead doing. Will a Go-Pro end your skydiving career by jumping it prior to the 'official' recommendation? Hopefully not, maybe you ARE that good, maybe you're lucky... I did my very first demonstration jump into a stadium on a round parachute with a whole 22 jumps under my belt. The club members that were my mentors at the time, liked me & respected my skills and gave me the okay. I pulled it off and thought I was the hot shit skydiver of the century. Looking back after I became more experienced, I realized that the only thing 'hot-shit' had to do with it, is how far above my head I was in it... trying something like that! Take small steps, don't rush anything...it's really not a practical approach. For the 1st ten years I was jumping I had a lot more luck than skills...seeing friends with much higher skills who's luck ran out forced a re evaluation regarding some of the things I was doing. Pushing the envelope is NOT a good habit to get into and has it's costs, rarely is the benefit worth that cost...ya got plenty of time, use the 'envelope' as a guide not a barrier...trust me, in 30 years you'll be glad you did! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #189 July 1, 2010 Quote ...you elitist types are the very ones that drive newer jumpers from sticking with the sport for sure. It's by design, keeps the lines short at manifest. And hey n00b, who are YOU to be telling US, who have been around forever... the way to push newer jumpers from the sport? Hell, I've been discouraging skydivers from jumping since, well since before you ever HEARD of gravity! ...Oh and....yeah it's a camera. Spaceland should pick up a system like StartSkydiving has, FastSlots... I swipe my card, and anyone else thats jumping and manifest us for a load at several places on the dz... I think you can even do it online now..."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
topdocker 0 #190 July 1, 2010 Quote Until USPA comes out and says "No Camera flight until minimum 200 Jumps", then it will be nothing more than opinions.... I am very sure this will be clarified at the BOD meeting this month! Craig Stapleton, Pacific Regional DiectorJump more, post less! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #191 July 1, 2010 >Looking back after I became more experienced, I realized that the only >thing 'hot-shit' had to do with it, is how far above my head I was in it... Yep. One of my first camera jumps was a belly mount camera on a bigway. I had well over 1000 jumps at the time, and although it was a fairly high pressure dive, I figured it was a no-brainer. Just turn it on and forget it, right? Well, had a collision on that jump, my first in a while. Kate came by, asked what was going on, and said 'get rid of the camera.' 'But - but - it's not distracting me, I just turn it on and . . .' 'Get rid of the camera,' she said. I did and no more collisions. Another one of my first camera jumps was a camera I had built into an FP1 helmet. It was a tiny camera mounted in the vent hole. So small that there was no snag hazard whatsoever, so it was perfectly safe, right? Did a jump filming a 4-way. They broke off, I deployed. On opening I looked up at my canopy thinking "cool video." Then after opening I looked in front of me to see another Sabre headed straight at me. Avoided it fortunately. And on both of those I would have sworn up and down that the camera wasn't distracting me, that it wasn't in the way, that I wouldn't do anything stupid. I had my AFF rating at the time, was starting to do bigways and RW, and everyone thought I could handle the whole camera thing beforehand. Now I have ~ 6000 jumps, and after all this time I realize that cameras DO distract me. Even though I've done over 500 of them, and even though it's become almost automatic. Gear checks change, behavior in the airplane changes, how I exit changes, how I protect myself during collisions changes, how I deploy changes, emergency procedures change, how I scan for canopies flying back changes. Of course if you had told me back then "make a few more jumps doing X before you put that camera on your head" I would have listed all the reasons they were wrong, they're not a distraction, I am perfectly capable of doing that. Behaving sorta skygoddish, in other words. Fortunately I survived that phase. It's creepy to see so many people repeating the mistakes that others have made, but with less and less experience. People jumping Stilettos and Samurais as beginner canopies. People doing video with under 100 jumps. There are these bags full of luck, skill, experience and risk that we all have to juggle, and it seems like more and more often, people are hoping their full luck bag is going to compensate for their light experience bag, or that their skill bag was somehow filled up just because they've made 100 jumps. Or that that risk bag isn't really all that full, anyway. And hopefully most people will survive the experience unscathed, or at most with a "learning experience." But that seems like an awful lot to ask of that bag of luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #192 July 1, 2010 Quote I liken this to the the Wingsuit flight recommendation. It's not a recommendation. It's a BSR.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #193 July 2, 2010 Quote It was the comment about the "Skygod" thing is all. I just think that was unnecessary. My skin is plenty thick...but my tolerance for morons who are single sided is not... I've been following this thread... good reading. I have a question for you. You say you have the blessing of the S&TA, DZO, and others?? I'd like to hear from them?? Did they OK your camera jumps or say something like .... "For the 12th time, you need 200 jumps, but, if you insist on jumping that damn go pro, go ahead and kill yourself!" There is a difference! Based on your posts, I just have my suspicions. I’m no sky god and certainly no expert, I just see a pattern here. For your sake and the jumpers around you, I hope your version of the story is accurate. If it is, find a good camera flier and learn from them. Blues!! Oh... I love the whole slam Twardo part above!! Excellent!Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #194 July 2, 2010 QuoteI love the whole slam Twardo part above!! I must step up here.... We really should have a rule against slamming Twardo... I mean, he's so frail at his age, we'll break him!Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #195 July 2, 2010 Quote Quote I love the whole slam Twardo part above!! I must step up here.... We really should have a rule against slamming Twardo... I mean, he's so frail at his age, we'll break him! Wait, what? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #196 July 2, 2010 QuoteQuote I liken this to the the Wingsuit flight recommendation. It's not a recommendation. It's a BSR. SIM 6-9: Wing suit recommendations I dont see it listed in the BSRs"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #197 July 2, 2010 Quote I liken this to the the Wingsuit flight recommendation. There is no wingsuit flight recommendation. It's a BSR.Why? Because a number of hotshots (including one that jumped at your DZ occasionally) felt they could deal with ignoring the recommendations for wingsuits. He's now dead. After a few very "capable, I've talked to my S&TA or very experienced instructors" died doing wingsuit jumps with their mad skillz, it became a BSR. BTW, comparing a 182 DZ like Star to Elsinore....that's even further off than using the coach rating as an excuse for being "camera-capable." A lot of people that go into the coach course come out significantly better skydivers, simply because they're receiving very specific, direct instruction. However, they're still not "awesome, incredible, and there" yet. Not at 100 jumps. You have 2X the experience at 200 than you do at 100 jumps, no matter how you slice it. Tandem manufacturers require 500 jumps for camera flyers to jump with tandems. To jump with Coaches or AFFI's, USPA recommends a minimum of 300 group jumps, 50 camera jumps on the canopy you're jumping for the Coach and AFF jumps. At 100 jumps, there simply is _no way_ you've developed the psycho-neuralmuscular abilities that being a camera flyer more or less demands. At 200 jumps, you're barely approaching the threshold of the door that is opening. Sure, at a dropzone like yours, things are a little more loose than at most DZ's. That doesn't make them safe. The reason they're recommendations vs requirements aren't so they're open to interpretation. Pick up the phone, call your RD or better yet, send an email to your ND's and ask why. It has a lot more to do with living in litigious America than it does with wanting to have loosely defined standards. [edited to respond to theonlyski] The BSR was implemented at the last BOD meeting. The new SIM doesn't publish for a couple more months. That's the problem with paper; takes a while for it to catch up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #198 July 2, 2010 A DZO may do as they like, but I'd argue a USPA S&TA or Instructor who does not follow the recommendations published is showing weak judgement, and is opening themselves (and the organization)to increased liability. But that's just my opinion and it's widely know that I'm an asshole.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ridestrong 1 #199 July 2, 2010 Yeah... your absolutely right, that you can't be right. If you disagree with up number jumpers some of them are quick to just insult you, usually by calling you a 'SkyGod' with 'MadSkillz' and telling you that you think you are hot shit, have a bad attitude and don't want to learn etc... it is just their MO. All reasonable debate is usually out the door at that point because the other up jumpers that also think and respond that way will jump in and confirm that you are all of those things, and my favorite, tell you that, "you don't even know what you don't know." When people jump to insults it's because they don't have anything better to say. Just look back on this and any other thread and see who these guys are... it's usually the same ones. Twardo may get a pass cause he has some of the best stories I've read, never met him but he reminds me of those 'Dos Equis most interesting guy' commercials. Not to mention... he is crusty old, and may or may not have dementia... *I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.* ----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.---- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #200 July 2, 2010 Quote [edited to respond to theonlyski] The BSR was implemented at the last BOD meeting. The new SIM doesn't publish for a couple more months. That's the problem with paper; takes a while for it to catch up. You would think they could edit the online version pretty easily though..."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
