PeterB

Well you can kinda run into a problem with the three man configuration. Say the wiseass has a different tracking style than you. Really fast track but not entirely flat. You on the other hand flat track like a skinny mofo with huge legs and arms. Not superfast horisontally but so flat wingsuit fliers are unable to dock. The third dude goes "oh WTF" and about 5 seconds onto the video the camera alternates wildly between the low dude and the high dude. It's sucky video but the story behind is kinda funny.

Neither does the "let's poke that bear with a pitchfork" approach. All parts need to show restraint. If this was merely a matter of some dudes on the wrong side of the watery border they'd been released by now. From what I read instead they'll be paraded on state controlled television after having been made pawns in a larger game of chess. I'm not picking sides here. If I was in the Iranian government you bet I'd do what I could to shore up my defenses. At the same time I wouldn't provoke an outsider into a war unless I was sure I could win it. So this poking is a bit of a gamble and could well turn out to be counter productive. I mean it's no secret that both the Brits (Falkland Islands) and the Americans (Iraq I and II, Afghanistan) are prepared to fight over things they consider in their interest. -- PeterB

Ah, those young ones probably haven't dated a serious skydiver yet. It's pretty much a fantasy world thinking that skydiving will get you chicks. You're much better off at a local bar and using the cash to buy bling and other dumb shit. If you want to get good, this sport will put a serious dent in your finances. It'll also grab a significant part of your time. Worse yet, the whuffo girlfriend/boyfriend will feel some kind of exclusion from not being able to relate to the DZ experience. there'll be some jealosy towards the people you spend Bonfire beer time with. And on and on. Any whuffo woman or man who's dated an active skydiver for more than just a few months in the off season will know it's more of a challenge than a benefit. At 50-100 jumps a year it's not too expensive or time consuming. At 400+ it begins to take a toll. That's my experience anyway. -- PeterB

So should you call 'em on it, right there in front of the tandem pax? I mean honestly it should be called out. It's doing the customer a disservice by lying about the risks. Sure might result in fewer tandems but it's the ethical alternative to lying to someone about the risks. No need to exaggerate the risks but it's downright immoral to lie or downplay them. I'm not sure I can keep my mouth shut next time I hear it. -- PeterB

From reading BillVon's post on the top of the page, it might very well be our last option. I agree it's using the big sledge as opposed to the small hammer but it seems that things just don't change unless solid measures are taken. I don't have an answer though.

Currently am learning how fast I can make enemies on teh inttraweb computerscreen. I've also learned that for the average DZ.com poster, his or her jumping skills are inversely proportional to the number of posts made. On a more serious note, there's tons of really good material written by truly knowledgeable people. I've just had to lurk for a few months to sort out the parrots from the content creators. I'll read anything some posters write or might have input on and skip the 'what color should my new rig have?' things. Think 'the 45 degree rule' experiments by Kallend and BillVon were the posts that made me consider DZ.com a serious supplement to real dz bonfire beer experience-sharing sessions. Lots of good stuff since. -- PeterB

When you invent Google II, remember skydiving. We could do with some free windtunnels and stuff. -- Peter

The key to reading fast is a good nonsense filter that does away with uninteresting personal feelings vaguely disguised as 'science'. It's so remarkable effective I only needed to read the first 300 words of this article yet I still got the full message. "These are umm diseases and stuff of the mind, you know" This is proven stuff". "These other 2000 words is my opinion but like umm wouldn't it be cool to tie it together? I mean it'd be funny in a way except it won't because well it's my opinion but yeah it would be a bit funny because the others would seems like they were insane LOL!!!11!!" I guess I was hoping for some ammo against the liberal pinkos secular progressives. Not entirely disappoinited as what I got was some ammo against the neo cons righteous protectorate (thanks Narcimund for that one). -- Peter

I have a few. The deal is pretty simple. Most of the ones you lost weren't really friends. More like people you liked to hang out with who you shared some common interest that naturally brought you together. Could be studies, work, nitting. The high maintenance relationships kind of got lost naturally too. A time intensive sport like skydiving acts as a clear filter in a way. Still got my real non skydiving friends but the not so deep connections have been replaced by other people who jump. Some times the way the filter works is pretty surprising. Had a pretty interesting discussion with a teammate about this. You can hang out with someone for every weekend for a year but if that someone stops jumping you kinda lose contact unless there's something in there other than skydiving. Core friends are core friends. I don't want to talk dismissively about people outside that cicrcle as they're important too and worthy of consideration and time. Skydiving can help sort out what group your 'friends and acquaintances' fall in but it isn't exclusively a skydive thing. -- Peter

Ah seems I was wrong. It's been done before by several people. Crap there goes that theory. Kind of tips the scale from SoTY-worthy to a 'Impressive. Most impressive. Obi-Wan has taught you well.'.

I still can't think of someone that got that far in that short amount of time, tunnel or not. Maybe that Russian camerawoman who films the skysurfer. Can you come up with some? Maybe Predstrup, he didn't have more than a few thousand jumps and 3-4 years when he became world champion the first time. He's male and was in a different discipline though. There's this guy with only 200 something jumps. 60 hours in tunnel. He got me beat on all things in the tunnel and on a good number of things in the air. Tunnel time or not he still impresses me.

She got the reward for being able to be on a team that won and for getting there in only three years. Practically unheard of in modern skydiving and definitely an achievement. The getting there in only three years thing separates her from say Babylon Freefly or three times champion Niels Predstrup. What also separates her from them is the fact that the former have won multiple times, given lots back to the community and generally have a very strong presence and influence outside their own teams. Doesn't count though. Yuropeean furriners.

You're not the only one. To those of you who missed the subtle-as-asledge-hammer-to-the-head point Narci made in his initial point: This Bill dude made up a new phrase and puts everyone he doesn't like in it. He then uses a series of negative definitions of this phrase. Narcimund did the same (although Righteous Protectorate is a lot... catchier). Any flaming or points directed towards Narcimund or his argument can be directly applied to Rileys. Still wondering if you have a pink pistol though. Wouldn't say a racing-green one that feels like a freight train running over the disillusioned broken down spirits of political hacks be more fun?

Ah, I knew Andy was undercover SAS. I'm no Brit either but my experience is that Britain is even worse than the Scandinavian countries wrt. Big Brotherism. In the Scandinavian countries the state seems content with just picking your pockets rather than your rights.

Dude, take your attitude somewhere else. Feel free to disagree but that disrespectful nonsense is just stupid. It's the attitude of a 100 jump wonder. My guess is the sport will find a way to eat humble pie. Happened to me. Still happens to me. In the US, yeah. Not where I jump. Higher jump requirement here as well as getting a formal certification from the national skydiving association that clear you to jump with others. And no, you can't get that cert by jumping with 100 jump wonders. Average mean distribution. There are a very small percentage who at 100 jump have good air skills. Even fewer who have that and a natural ability to teach. Even then they only have 100 jumps of actual skydiving experience. The distribution of averages suggests that there are as many sucky instructors @ 100 jumps as there are @ 1000. The difference is that @ 1000 the instructors has ten times more experience to make up for deficiencies. Apparently your deduction skills aren't up to par with your jumping skills. And by using earlier your example we were all Gods own instructors @ 100 jumps with shitloads of tunnel time and recommendations from all the other instructors. Make up your mind about a point. You're countering one of your former ones. Inadequate reading skills. There's a difference between ain't shit and doesn't mean shit. 1000 jumps is not that much. I got that in three years and I wasn't even pushing it. Dude your reading and deduction abilities need some serious work. You're making leaps of logic and inserting words that aren't there like the world is about to run out of 'em. 1000 jumps is not much experience. Skill can amongst other things be assessed relative to experience or relative to the world champions. I can do all 21 moves in the 2007 freefly money meet dive pool. I'm satisfied with my skills. When I saw the Babylon dudes 'live', I got a bit depressed about how far I still have to go. Now back on topic please? And conversely, when someone with ten times more experience than you politely makes a few points you disagree with, don't counter with strawmen and an attitude. Address the issues rather than construct strawmen that aren't there to begin with. No, I'll disregard most of what you said because you're missing the point, construct phantom arguments and come into it all with an attitude problem. Your last few paragraphs have merit and some good points. It's too bad they kind of get lost in the the rant above that is basically lots of logical fallacies based on intentionally misconstruing someone elses points. I've said what I wanted to say. Peace. -- Peter

Then we probably would too. People living in extreme poverty or in wartorn areas have a tendency to leave for better places. And lots of them don't bother to enter the new place legally. I mean what's an arrest compared to watching your kids die of disease/malnutrition/blown up? Disease don't give a crap about artificial lines drawn arbitrarily on a graphical representation of earth. That's all that borders are. Doesn't give a fuck about laws either. Diseases like polio need to be aggresively attacked world wide. People may be poor and uneducated but my bet is that the average person there is as intelligent as the average person here. The difference is access to quality education. But sure let's just say they deserve it.

Manchester United song (one of many) Tune: Oh my darling Clementine Build a bonfire, Build a bonfire, Put the Scousers on the top, Put City in the middle, And we'll burn the f*cking lot Man United is probably a pro team, though Man City fans (well any non United fan) would probably argue otherwise. .

This is fair enough. I'm just not on board with the idea that 100 jumps is enough. The statistics may prove me wrong though. Yeah I guess this is probably what's bothering me the most. The jumpmaster rating was pretty solid IMO. This 'coach' thing is also lends itself well to either charging others or not paying your own slot. This bugs me because that ain't what skydiving should be about especially as a student. Share the passion is way better than seeing a student as a way to cash in or get free jumps. No comment on the rest, you make very valid points and I can only second them. Dorbie, I jump with everyone. Small DZ so the socialising and sharing comes as a natural part of the environment. I'm no saint in any way. It's just easy to want to help out when everyone at the DZ already are.

Yeah, I kinda tried to emphasize that. Guess I didn't do it strongly enough. I'm a noob, I haven't got any instructional ratings and I'm not interested in getting them either. Number of jumps aren't magical. They can be used as an indicator though. A 100 jump guy probably doesn't have the experience and skill to fly an 83 Velo. Somewhere you have to draw the line with regards to coaching and getting instructor ratings. My feeling is that 100 jumps is too little. Of course there are the historical argument that it was done in the past. Could be argued that the sport has evolved and it can be pointed out that lots of really dumb shit also was just part of the scene a while back. I don't think 100 jump coaches are inherently unsafe. It's that the skillset for the average 100 jump guy just ain't enough for teaching others how to properly maneuver in freefall. In my opinion.

Heh I'm in nitpick mode. I am not bitching about the guidelines. I am bitching about the idea that 100 jump newbies are qualified jumpers . Bitching is nice so I do a lot of it.

Because I have no need to. There's a minimum requirement of 250 jumps, 2 years in the sport for anyone who wants to become a basic instructor in the country I've moved to. I'm not a USPA member and somehow I doubt the USPA wants non-members to dictate their rules and guidelines. Also prefer to work at the grassroot level instead of dealing with professional bureaucrats. I leave the latter for those better equipped for that. And yeah I put my money where my mouth is. More specifically, I pay my own slot whether I'm jumping with newbies or teaching someone with less experience than me in say head down flying. To me 100 jumps ain't shit. 1000 jumps is enough to have the basics/intermediate stuff down but it's really not that much either. The word 'coach' has clear connotations attached to it - professionalism, intimate theoretical and practical knowledge, experience. Even a good 100 jump coach lack some of those qualities. So there is a gap between studentnewly licensed. The solution isn't to use newbies in an attempt to make the problem a little less severe. In my opinion.

Tongue in cheek bro. Don't underestimate the bragging rights part though. You'll meet a good number of people who'll try to inject "I'm a coach" into everything. Works with whuffos and noobs. it gets a 'meh, annoying' from me. It usually goes away as the person gains more experience. You seem to have a very healthy and positive attitude about it. It seems to me a bit that the coach rating legitimises charging people for stuff you should do for free. It's particularly bad at big DZs but happens at small DZs as well. At smaller ones such as my own it's common to pay your own slot, unless it's like 10 jumps in a row. Just a give-back-to-community thing. I prefer this because it keeps things relaxed and fun and builds relationships.

Agreed. Just have to take into account that the relationship of good vs bad coaches is the same in the 100 jump group as in the 1000+ jump group. Just a general population distribution so to speak. So, you could have very inexperienced people going up with newbies. And the newbies are full of shit. I'd rather be up with someone with 1000 jumps who is full of shit than someone with 150 who's full of the same. Beside, everyone knows the 100 jump coach rating is all about bragging rights.

I mean it's just ordinary group dynamics but in a DZ setting. The extraordinary thing about DZs is that you get exposed to a lot of people you wouldn't otherwise meet because of how we select the people we want to be surrounded by. How well people get along has a lot to do about how well people are able to assess the situation and find workarounds. Sure, your normal behavior might be teh winnar. Could also be that the same thing that makes you endearing to your normal homogenous group of friends just pisses off the majority of the heterogenous group of jumpers at the DZ. The thing about the small European countries is that the DZs there usually are small with tight knit communities. Just like every other DZ I've visited around the world, there's a pecking order. If a newbie shoots his or her mouth and is full of doo doo it doesn't take much for everyone to know and for the word to spread. Basically don't lecture people with 100 times more experience than you. Don't be a smart ass, don't pretend you know everything and don't challenge the alphas unless you know you're gonna win. You only need to lose a couple of fights with the alphas and your reputation and credibility is toast. Pick your fights and ignore the bullshit. Realize that you ain't got a right to be heard and respect is earned, not given. Then after a couple of years things will have settled and you can tell everyone to go fuck themselves. I do this almost every weekend, it's a much appreciated service rendered to the needy. It might not be everyone else that's the problem. Maybe it's the OP. Then again, the world is full of assholes who tell people to go fuck themselves.

Oooh you can get the realdoll half-torso too! Then the beatch fo' sho' won't give you any lip. Seriously. The internet is like big sponge designed to soak up weird shit. You're only a pervert if your particular fetish ain't represented by at least five pay sites.