skyjack71 0 #17426 May 1, 2010 Quote Sluggo is fortunate to have you checking his work. Keep up your Revelations to the planet, Earth! The maps are technical and I don't get involved. I only made a comment about prior statements made by me since get go and to others plus, recent confirmations of what I have said in the past. All of this dealt with the Orchards area and the markers visible in that area. Every time I make a post regarding specific subjects and the process going on - you get out of sorts. Others who visit this forum, but do not post - notice this and have made comments about it. What you got out of sorts about was not my comments on the location Sluggo mentioned, but something else in the same post relating information recently acquired that I had prior knowledge of. Later one day I will tell that funny story.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Farflung 0 #17427 May 1, 2010 Yes the great mystery map, what could it possibly be? FAA, 1:500k, Sectional Chart. Reason: Symbology and relative scale to compass rose depiction and font size. WACs are 1 to a million in scale. WACs don't depict Airway intersection names either. The second baffler lies in the fact that there are two different sectionals named Seattle, with the same scale but one covers a much greater area. Keeping up? I didn't think so. Look at attachment 1. Yep, that is the 'old' index to aeronautical charts in the US of A. Do you see the sectional named Seattle? It is bound to the north by the extinct Bellingham sectional and to the south by the redundant Portland sectional. Look at attachment 2. See where it says 'Joins Bellingham' at the top right margin? That is a clue as to the source, origin and date of said cartographic artifact. Knowing the type of chart will give one a hint at vintage. These would run from post WWII to 1971 give or take a revision cycle. Knowing the symbology will narrow the probability even more. Look at attachment 3. This is the spawn of the Seattle sectional, edge matched and attached to the Portland sectional. Take a look at the index from attachment 1 if you need some perspective. Now zoom into (attachment 3) what looks like the the word NO in felt tip pen (I'll wait). Just to the right of the word NO you will notice the archaic abbreviation for Oregon as OREG and Washington as /ASH. Hey, what happened to the dub-ya? Careless cartographers are not showing proper respect to a higher governmental administrative body or...... is that where the two sectionals are glued together? Can you see the line where the longitudinal index begins to diverge from the projection error? Who ever joined the charts did a pretty good job. Well done Special Agent Bob. Since your already looking in the area, scan a little south and east and you will notice a shield symbol with the number 5 emblazoned in the center. That is representative of Interstate 5. So.... this chart would have been produced after the Federal Highway Act of 1956. Hence the mystery chart is a kludged pair of 'original sectionals' (Seattle and Portland) published some time between 1956 and 1971 when the new sectional standard was adopted. The Seattle sectional depicts NAS Seattle (North of SEATAC) as closed. 1968 had the Navy resurfacing the runway with June 1970 being the official close date. This data point should narrow things a bit. What about the Portland sectional which has been misquoted as the Seattle sectional for all these decades? Take a look at attachment 4, waaaay down on the bottom, right portion is a magenta dashed (aka broken) line. This is the compass correction value called the Isogonic Line (use it in casual conversation today) and it has been normalized to 1965. If the mystery chart matches the 1971 model, we can presume the chart will have a date of 1965 or later. Let's see!! From left to right on the bottom of attachment 3 you will notice that broken magenta line rising diagonally at about 22 degrees. It passes just to the south of Carlton (whew, that was close) and then barely misses the Newberg VORTAC before Passing the southern side of Portland and up the mighty Columbia. Got it? Now look at attachment 5 (the 1971 'Seattle sectional') and see if that dirty, naughty Isogonic Line doesn't match. Wha du yah think? Well OK then, I guess the Portland sectional was published some time after 1965. Could it be narrowed even more? Could be tough and not for those with weak bladders. Check out Portland Sectional July 1969 (attachment) which is a little piece of heaven from the Portland Metro area. On the bottom of this remnant is a magenta (I thought she was hot in Rocky Horror) circle with the name Mulino. Now look at attachment 3 (again) at the bottom center and find Mulino. Find it? I knew you could. Do you see how the mystery Mulino has gone from a circle to a circle with four tabs attached? I'm sure you are already looking at attachment 4 and have discovered the four tabs means this airport has facilities. Usually getting facilities is an improvement or upgrade if you will. Does the Mulino on attachment 5 have a magenta circle with four tabs? Sure it does. So the mystery chart was probably published between early 1970 and the revision before attachment 5 which would have been early 1971. Hope there are enough bread crumbs in this tome to complete some independent research and validation on the subject. There are few things worse than someone spewing basura as if they actually know what they are talking about. Sends people on wild goose romps while the simplest data remains dormant (like this crap). According to attachment last, the 1971 Seattle sectional was effective 22 July replacing the February 1971 chart. If NAS Seattle was closed June 1970 the first chart with this depiction would be the July 1970 revision with the next and only other revision being February 1971. Two logical possibilities for the source of the mystery map - top half. The July 1971, Seattle sectional covers what was the Portland sectional with the same previous publication date of February 1971. Since the last data point I could find for Portland was the July 1969 sectional; this left both revisions for 1970 and the first revision for 1971 as possibilities for the mystery map - lower half. Of interest (only to me I'm sure) on 'attachment last' is a little hint about the position of this new and improved chart. It's the blue text.... 1st edition (that means it is first) so presumably the previous chart held the appearance of the old school pressings. Other indications of age include, the rotating beacon star imbedded within the circle, generic Navaid roundels, obstacle symbology as inverted V's in a 'frame', airport circles with eight tabs, NDBs and Compass Locators have Radio in the name and the letter R was not in restricted airfields. From abject mystery to a field of five possibilities using nothing more than dry, un-emotive, referenced, public data points, two hours of time, four cups of coffee and some ordinary household bleach. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #17428 May 1, 2010 QuoteYes the great mystery map, what could it possibly be? FAA, 1:500k, Sectional Chart. Reason: Symbology and relative scale to compass rose depiction and font size. WACs are 1 to a million in scale. WACs don't depict Airway intersection names either. The second baffler lies in the fact that there are two different sectionals named Seattle, with the same scale but one covers a much greater area. Keeping up? I didn't think so. Look at attachment 1. wow! (1) In your opinion, who would have had access to map #2/3 attached (or used it) to make a radar plot on it? Someone in the FBI, someone at NWA? The effort seems crude to me vrs. other altertnatives eg. the more formal probability map Soderlind produced which looks like a computer generated ,ap to me ... ? (2) Would the military have used different (military)maps? (computer generated) (3) The socalled "FBI Map" (yellow) looks to me like an informal attempt to plot a radar track on a chart of the day? Who would do that? Any thoughts or opinions-guesses? For my own part I know next to nothing about aviation charts. Please dont find my questions stupid or offensive ... I may PM you about this next week if you dont mind. Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #17429 May 2, 2010 QuoteYes the great mystery map, what could it possibly be?Quote I know little about maps, but it certainly sounds like you do know what you are talking about and this might be your expertise. The longest post you ever made here - therefore the subject conversation must have got your dander up enough - to sit down and do something about it. This is what has been needed - for those who know what they are talking about to enter these discussions - they fortunately go way over my head. After your study - what is you analysis of the actual route? As for the DZ he could have jumped at several points or as someone else proposed not at all...but we know that is not possible.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #17430 May 2, 2010 [ This is what has been needed - for those who know what they are talking about to enter these discussions - What "discussions"? It's a silent movie here and always has been. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gharendza 0 #17431 May 2, 2010 Hey There, D B Cooper is a Legend ! To this day they only found 7 grand. Out of 200 grand Way back in the day ! D B smoked Winston Cigarrettes More Power to You D B ! Gerald Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SKYWHUFFO 0 #17432 May 2, 2010 unless you have $1200 of the Cooper bills lying around your house only $5800 was found by Brian Ingram. So you better come clean Gerald and tell us about the other $1200! HA! HA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BruceSmith 3 #17433 May 3, 2010 Hang in there, Sky, for fresh Cooper stuff. I have been interviewing a source who has identified an original suspect. My source is a little shy, but he reads the DZ, so I am waiting until he is comfortable with seeing his name in our bright lights before posting the whole shebang. This source has also been in contact with Jo, and he comes to us via Galen. This source had contact with a person of interest in the Salt Lake City area, hence I am waiting for Russ to return to his SLC digs from a winter foray to SC, and confirm some of the federal aspects of this new information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SKYWHUFFO 0 #17434 May 3, 2010 Here is a dumb question that probably is not known. How long was Cooper standing around between the time he boarded the plane, and when he bought the ticket"? I am still hung up on why he would have ever stood out to the ticket counter person who sees hundereds of business people in suits probably flying everyday. Is the ticket agent who states remembering Cooper boarding the plane still alive? Sluggo, somthing to think about, adding a connection on your site, a list of the prominant players and if they are alive or dead. Somthing like: Ralph H- Agent, Alive Duane Weber- Suspect, Deceased Kenneth Christianson- Suspect, Deceased Rat- Pilot, Alive Tina- Stewardess, alive ?????, brought money and canopies to plane, ???? I am a black and white person( it's the engineer in me.) if i see it i understand it better. I know the list would be long, but it could be a work in progress. Whats ya think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skyjack71 0 #17435 May 3, 2010 QuoteRalph H- Agent, Alive Duane Weber- Suspect, Deceased Kenneth Christianson- Suspect, Deceased Rat- Pilot, Alive Tina- Stewardess, alive ?????, brought money and canopies to plane, ???? To ALL We have done all of the above. There was a ticket agent and a gate agent. All are names within the thread and then there is the passenger list. All key individuals have been named (except the passenger list). All of those willing to talk I have interviewed and others have interviewed. Some I interviewed BEFORE they died. Some individual have spoke with me ..only because I was so persistent and needed answers on a personal basis. All of that has been done by the members of this thread, the media and by others such as myself. Some of these people want only to be LEFT alone - and they have good reason. Lives have been altered including mine by Duane's confession. No one can give these people back their lives as the case is now approaching 38 yrs - I have been told by key individuals - IT is TIME to Bring this to an END (not because of me, but because of all the ensueing confronting by the media and others within the past few yrs.) They ALL want it to end. Prior to the dominance of the internet these people were able to live relative private lives. Since the presentation of multiple suspects, upcoming books, the chute find, supposed dna (which the FBI now admits was contaminated), the internet and loss of their privacy.....you will find an ending coming very soon. More people with stories to tell have crawled out of the past and one which Bruce spoke of told me 2 stories (stories - Duane told me, but I have not talked about these things publically). The information was recorded in my files from 1996 - 2000 and were told to Himmelsbach - therefore NEW information has been obtained. Where any of this will go I have not a clue! But there is a connection or this man knew the same people Duane knew. Bruce is more astute at getting the details about these incidents as I am too emotionally involved. As with everyone when we get older our memories are clouded over time - and I found inconsistencies (but, as of the last 2 yrs I have a hard time getting a grasp on some conversations). His story is worth hearing and like the man, but of course we disagree on only one part of his story....but, it was the parts of his story --- that are consistent with stories Duane told me. Few people would know these specific stories or these connections...No this man is not Cooper, but I think his subject and Duane Weber did know each other. P.S. There is more than one name on that passenger list that has NEVER been made public to my knowledge. This caught my attention - coincidence or deliberate action on the FBI's part? Or was one individual TOO high up the food chain? The Book and the Picture will be made PUBLIC! Also another picture of an item never before exposed, but not in this thread. I believe Cooper will end within a short few months.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SKYWHUFFO 0 #17436 May 3, 2010 Jo what do you know about Fourth Plain Road? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites georger 197 #17437 May 3, 2010 Look at attachment 3. This is the spawn of the Seattle sectional, edge matched and attached to the Portland sectional. Take a look at the index from attachment 1 if you need some perspective. Now zoom into (attachment 3) what looks like the the word NO in felt tip pen (I'll wait). Just to the right of the word NO you will notice the archaic abbreviation for Oregon as OREG and Washington as /ASH. Hey, what happened to the dub-ya? Careless cartographers are not showing proper respect to a higher governmental administrative body or...... is that where the two sectionals are glued together? Can you see the line where the longitudinal index begins to diverge from the projection error? Who ever joined the charts did a pretty good job. Well done Special Agent Bob. This was noticed before here (I did) but nobody cared to pursue it or thought it significant? You have now connected a few historical dots. We were examining 'tic' marks, or at least I was, during Sluggo's work trying to establish a timeline. Just to ward off possible criticism I am not making any value judgement about Sluggo in anything Im saying here. It was obvious the two sections of the FBI map did not mate up, and who knows how much one can read into that. One thing does appear clear, however. (I even wondered if the large NO stood for north section (of two maps); who knows what "NO" refers to?) But if you look at "2010" on the upper map you will notice its leftside arrow has been covered up by the 'pasteup' job. 2010 is then applied on the bottom section a second time in heavier ink. But it made me wonder: "How long was this upper map before the pastup job was done?" Maybe the upper map did not extend down much further and thus a paste up job was required (given the dates/versions of the maps used). However, when the lower section was pasted to the upper section it's obvious to me a flight path had already been penciled on it (prior to second and third applications of ink/pencil/etc). There are many layers of penciling and ink on both maps - prior to the pasteup - I am sure I can prove that. (what this means is anyone's guess). This is a case of two maps with flight path already penciled on both sections, then joined. You can see see the double thickness (joiner) line. Once joined more penciling is done then what appears as magic marker you notied, and actual ink ... worked by different people, different sessions of work? This is not a fresh map received as a pastup from the publisher then worked (penciled on to)... This map we are looking at and the NWA La Center Quad map are NOT the only maps that were prepared in this case. I know that for a fact. So, it is not as if this is the only map the FBI and others had by early 1972. Who knows why this map in particular waw passed down over time to finally become 'thee flight path map' presented to the public. Here are a few attachments you may see something in; two before posted months ago here by me. Sluiggo used this map to take his physical measurements for a timeline off of. One question is: has the scale of the map been distorted in some significant way that would affect timescale assignments? By contrast, the NWA map which became public does not have radar tic marks on it. I believe that map was originally computer generated and FAXed to the FBI. (Sluggo will be all over me for saying that!). Your post is remarkable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #17430 May 2, 2010 [ This is what has been needed - for those who know what they are talking about to enter these discussions - What "discussions"? It's a silent movie here and always has been. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gharendza 0 #17431 May 2, 2010 Hey There, D B Cooper is a Legend ! To this day they only found 7 grand. Out of 200 grand Way back in the day ! D B smoked Winston Cigarrettes More Power to You D B ! Gerald Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SKYWHUFFO 0 #17432 May 2, 2010 unless you have $1200 of the Cooper bills lying around your house only $5800 was found by Brian Ingram. So you better come clean Gerald and tell us about the other $1200! HA! HA! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #17433 May 3, 2010 Hang in there, Sky, for fresh Cooper stuff. I have been interviewing a source who has identified an original suspect. My source is a little shy, but he reads the DZ, so I am waiting until he is comfortable with seeing his name in our bright lights before posting the whole shebang. This source has also been in contact with Jo, and he comes to us via Galen. This source had contact with a person of interest in the Salt Lake City area, hence I am waiting for Russ to return to his SLC digs from a winter foray to SC, and confirm some of the federal aspects of this new information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SKYWHUFFO 0 #17434 May 3, 2010 Here is a dumb question that probably is not known. How long was Cooper standing around between the time he boarded the plane, and when he bought the ticket"? I am still hung up on why he would have ever stood out to the ticket counter person who sees hundereds of business people in suits probably flying everyday. Is the ticket agent who states remembering Cooper boarding the plane still alive? Sluggo, somthing to think about, adding a connection on your site, a list of the prominant players and if they are alive or dead. Somthing like: Ralph H- Agent, Alive Duane Weber- Suspect, Deceased Kenneth Christianson- Suspect, Deceased Rat- Pilot, Alive Tina- Stewardess, alive ?????, brought money and canopies to plane, ???? I am a black and white person( it's the engineer in me.) if i see it i understand it better. I know the list would be long, but it could be a work in progress. Whats ya think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #17435 May 3, 2010 QuoteRalph H- Agent, Alive Duane Weber- Suspect, Deceased Kenneth Christianson- Suspect, Deceased Rat- Pilot, Alive Tina- Stewardess, alive ?????, brought money and canopies to plane, ???? To ALL We have done all of the above. There was a ticket agent and a gate agent. All are names within the thread and then there is the passenger list. All key individuals have been named (except the passenger list). All of those willing to talk I have interviewed and others have interviewed. Some I interviewed BEFORE they died. Some individual have spoke with me ..only because I was so persistent and needed answers on a personal basis. All of that has been done by the members of this thread, the media and by others such as myself. Some of these people want only to be LEFT alone - and they have good reason. Lives have been altered including mine by Duane's confession. No one can give these people back their lives as the case is now approaching 38 yrs - I have been told by key individuals - IT is TIME to Bring this to an END (not because of me, but because of all the ensueing confronting by the media and others within the past few yrs.) They ALL want it to end. Prior to the dominance of the internet these people were able to live relative private lives. Since the presentation of multiple suspects, upcoming books, the chute find, supposed dna (which the FBI now admits was contaminated), the internet and loss of their privacy.....you will find an ending coming very soon. More people with stories to tell have crawled out of the past and one which Bruce spoke of told me 2 stories (stories - Duane told me, but I have not talked about these things publically). The information was recorded in my files from 1996 - 2000 and were told to Himmelsbach - therefore NEW information has been obtained. Where any of this will go I have not a clue! But there is a connection or this man knew the same people Duane knew. Bruce is more astute at getting the details about these incidents as I am too emotionally involved. As with everyone when we get older our memories are clouded over time - and I found inconsistencies (but, as of the last 2 yrs I have a hard time getting a grasp on some conversations). His story is worth hearing and like the man, but of course we disagree on only one part of his story....but, it was the parts of his story --- that are consistent with stories Duane told me. Few people would know these specific stories or these connections...No this man is not Cooper, but I think his subject and Duane Weber did know each other. P.S. There is more than one name on that passenger list that has NEVER been made public to my knowledge. This caught my attention - coincidence or deliberate action on the FBI's part? Or was one individual TOO high up the food chain? The Book and the Picture will be made PUBLIC! Also another picture of an item never before exposed, but not in this thread. I believe Cooper will end within a short few months.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SKYWHUFFO 0 #17436 May 3, 2010 Jo what do you know about Fourth Plain Road? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #17437 May 3, 2010 Look at attachment 3. This is the spawn of the Seattle sectional, edge matched and attached to the Portland sectional. Take a look at the index from attachment 1 if you need some perspective. Now zoom into (attachment 3) what looks like the the word NO in felt tip pen (I'll wait). Just to the right of the word NO you will notice the archaic abbreviation for Oregon as OREG and Washington as /ASH. Hey, what happened to the dub-ya? Careless cartographers are not showing proper respect to a higher governmental administrative body or...... is that where the two sectionals are glued together? Can you see the line where the longitudinal index begins to diverge from the projection error? Who ever joined the charts did a pretty good job. Well done Special Agent Bob. This was noticed before here (I did) but nobody cared to pursue it or thought it significant? You have now connected a few historical dots. We were examining 'tic' marks, or at least I was, during Sluggo's work trying to establish a timeline. Just to ward off possible criticism I am not making any value judgement about Sluggo in anything Im saying here. It was obvious the two sections of the FBI map did not mate up, and who knows how much one can read into that. One thing does appear clear, however. (I even wondered if the large NO stood for north section (of two maps); who knows what "NO" refers to?) But if you look at "2010" on the upper map you will notice its leftside arrow has been covered up by the 'pasteup' job. 2010 is then applied on the bottom section a second time in heavier ink. But it made me wonder: "How long was this upper map before the pastup job was done?" Maybe the upper map did not extend down much further and thus a paste up job was required (given the dates/versions of the maps used). However, when the lower section was pasted to the upper section it's obvious to me a flight path had already been penciled on it (prior to second and third applications of ink/pencil/etc). There are many layers of penciling and ink on both maps - prior to the pasteup - I am sure I can prove that. (what this means is anyone's guess). This is a case of two maps with flight path already penciled on both sections, then joined. You can see see the double thickness (joiner) line. Once joined more penciling is done then what appears as magic marker you notied, and actual ink ... worked by different people, different sessions of work? This is not a fresh map received as a pastup from the publisher then worked (penciled on to)... This map we are looking at and the NWA La Center Quad map are NOT the only maps that were prepared in this case. I know that for a fact. So, it is not as if this is the only map the FBI and others had by early 1972. Who knows why this map in particular waw passed down over time to finally become 'thee flight path map' presented to the public. Here are a few attachments you may see something in; two before posted months ago here by me. Sluiggo used this map to take his physical measurements for a timeline off of. One question is: has the scale of the map been distorted in some significant way that would affect timescale assignments? By contrast, the NWA map which became public does not have radar tic marks on it. I believe that map was originally computer generated and FAXed to the FBI. (Sluggo will be all over me for saying that!). Your post is remarkable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sluggo_Monster 0 #17438 May 3, 2010 Excellent idea Skywhuffo, I have a lot of business activity this week and a long weekend trip this weekend (No! Not to Darlington), but I’ll get on it early next week. Look for it in a couple of weeks. Farflung, Excellent analysis! I’ve been too busy to respond, I haven’t had time to post the whole charts on my site. I’ll post about it next week. Sluggo Web Page Blog NORJAK Forum Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjack71 0 #17439 May 4, 2010 Today I picked up a piece of glass Duane used as a paperweight. I was looking for a magnifying glass - but this blue piece of glass Duane ALWAYS kept in a desk drawer with the other pieces got my interest. It didn't magnify anything - but, it has a bluish tint 1/2 inch thick. A small piece about 4 x 2 inches in size....I took it to a man in our area who knows about planes and asked him what it was. I had a suspicion what it was, but didn't want to put an idea in anyone's head. He told me what he thought it was. You guys who are familiar with passenger plane construction will know exactly what it is. It may be a sample - but why would Duane Weber be in possession of such a thing. It is seems to be almost indestructible.Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SKYWHUFFO 0 #17440 May 4, 2010 uuhhh, he had an antique store, you never know what walks in those stores for sale. Ever see PawnStars on TV? Jo i'll ask again, Fourth Plain Road that name ring any bells? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #17441 May 4, 2010 QuoteToday I picked up a piece of glass Duane used as a paperweight. I was looking for a magnifying glass - but this blue piece of glass Duane ALWAYS kept in a desk drawer with the other pieces got my interest. It didn't magnify anything - but, it has a bluish tint 1/2 inch thick. A small piece about 4 x 2 inches in size....I took it to a man in our area who knows about planes and asked him what it was. I had a suspicion what it was, but didn't want to put an idea in anyone's head. He told me what he thought it was. You guys who are familiar with passenger plane construction will know exactly what it is. It may be a sample - but why would Duane Weber be in possession of such a thing. It is seems to be almost indestructible. His left testicle? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #17442 May 4, 2010 QuoteExcellent idea Skywhuffo, I have a lot of business activity this week and a long weekend trip this weekend (No! Not to Darlington), but I’ll get on it early next week. Look for it in a couple of weeks. Farflung, Excellent analysis! I’ve been too busy to respond, I haven’t had time to post the whole charts on my site. I’ll post about it next week. Sluggo attachmonte' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 21 #17443 May 4, 2010 Jo wrote: QuoteYou guys who are familiar with passenger plane construction will know exactly what it is. It may be a sample - but why would Duane Weber be in possession of such a thing. It is seems to be almost indestructible. Jo, It doesn't sound like anything from a 1970s pressurized passenger aircraft (such as a 727) to me. They don't have single layer blue tinted glass in any passenger or cockpit windows. If you are suggesting it is something other than widow glass just come out and say it. Must everything be a riddle or a tease? 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1969912 0 #17444 May 4, 2010 Nothing to do with Cooper, but worth a look: http://www.dhc-2.com/Monthan_Memories.html "Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ." -NickDG Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #17445 May 4, 2010 Quote Jo, It doesn't sound like anything from a 1970s pressurized passenger aircraft (such as a 727) to me. They don't have single layer blue tinted glass in any passenger or cockpit windows. If you are suggesting it is something other than widow glass just come out and say it. Must everything be a riddle or a tease? 377 well, clearly the answer to your second paragraph is yes. And of course it is not from a passenger window. It is, rather, the cover from a super-advanced alti + GPS that only super-secret agents involved in 10 super-secret missions that underwent super-secret jump training were given in the late 60s/early 70s. (of course, it could just be something that may have been found in the pocket of an expensive coat that disappeared into duane's arms in a restaurant one night) Waiting to hear more from Bruce...Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 21 #17446 May 4, 2010 QuoteIt is, rather, the cover from a super-advanced alti + GPS that only super-secret agents involved in 10 super-secret missions that underwent super-secret jump training were given in the late 60s/early 70s. It was given only to a very select group of spooks who were secretly trained by Rangers. That glass is a holographic head up display with a self contained mini ring laser gyro inertial nav system (remember, GPS sats werent even launched until the late 70s). Man, I'd sure like to have that in my collection of exotic jump instruments. It would be the crown jewel. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 21 #17447 May 4, 2010 QuoteNothing to do with Cooper, but worth a look: http://www.dhc-2.com/Monthan_Memories.html Great photos. I visited DM AFB way back when they gave bus tours through the boneyard. They stopped and let you get out and see the planes up close. A guy started weeping quietly when he saw his plane (a B 52) with the wing spars severed, destined for scrapping under the SALT nuke force reduction treaty. I toyed with idea of buying a Boeing KC 97L Stratofreighter when they put the last retired ANG birds up for govt. auction. They were complete and had low to mid time R 4360-59B radial engines (and two jets too) and very low airframe TT, typically 5000 hours. They all went for under $30,000 each, some for much less ($12,500). I thought it would be cool to put one on a piece of cheap dry desert land as a vacation cabin. It was a dumb idea, but one guy did something similar with a surplus 97. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLrITQ1lbQs Connie, the co-pilot of the C 54G that flew as a WFFC jumpship in 2000 flew right seat in a C 97 that was ferried from the boneyards of AZ to a new home in Oregon where it served as a restaurant called Flight 97. When the restaurant went bust the plane was patched up and flown out to a new assignment as a static display at some airbase. 3772018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georger 197 #17448 May 5, 2010 QuoteQuoteNothing to do with Cooper, but worth a look: http://www.dhc-2.com/Monthan_Memories.html Great photos. I visited DM AFB way back when they gave bus tours through the boneyard. They stopped and let you get out and see the planes up close. A guy started weeping quietly when he saw his plane (a B 52) with the wing spars severed, destined for scrapping under the SALT nuke force reduction treaty. I toyed with idea of buying a Boeing KC 97L Stratofreighter when they put the last retired ANG birds up for govt. auction. They were complete and had low to mid time R 4360-59B radial engines (and two jets too) and very low airframe TT, typically 5000 hours. They all went for under $30,000 each, some for much less ($12,500). I thought it would be cool to put one on a piece of cheap dry desert land as a vacation cabin. It was a dumb idea, but one guy did something similar with a surplus 97. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLrITQ1lbQs Connie, the co-pilot of the C 54G that flew as a WFFC jumpship in 2000 flew right seat in a C 97 that was ferried from the boneyards of AZ to a new home in Oregon where it served as a restaurant called Flight 97. When the restaurant went bust the plane was patched up and flown out to a new assignment as a static display at some airbase. 377 Naw. . . I want the F86. (attach) to go with my current one. (attach serie) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruceSmith 3 #17449 May 5, 2010 Upon Orange1’s kind prompt, I’ve decided to post the information on the suspect that has been presented to me over the past few weeks. I have some hesitancy in revealing his identity, as a private citizen is entitled to his privacy, but the public good does have some weight in this decision as well, and I lean on that side of the issue. Our source still has not authorized me to reveal his name, so the fellow with whom I’ve been talking is identified as “X.” Our person of interest is named Don Burnsworth, and here is X’s story: Interview with X, phone, April 21, 2010 I received a tip from Galen Cook several days ago that a new suspect in the DB Cooper case had emerged, namely a United Airlines captain named Don Burnsworth. Galen had received the information from a guy named X, and I in turn called X. X apparently lives in the Everett, Washington area at present. He said he contacted Galen a few weeks ago upon the suggestion of a friend of Galen, an airline flight attendant whom X met recently. X said he had told Galen's his friend his DB Cooper story and she recommended that he get in touch with Galen. Here is X’s story: In 1971, X had been working for a couple of years as a pilot flying Martin 404s for an air freight company in Salt Lake City, Utah named Sail Fish. In the late summer or early fall a new pilot joined the company as a contract pilot, a United Airlines pilot, a captain in fact, named Don Burnsworth. X says he picked Burnsworth up at the SLC airport and Burnsworth was wearing his UAL uniform, including name patch, and had walked off a UAL flight just prior to greeting X. Apparently Burnsworth had been hired to fly a new addition to the Sail Fish fleet, a DC-7-C. For the next several months X co-piloted this DC-7 with Burnsworth on runs to Alaska to bring fresh fruit north and carry fish south. They also made runs to intermediate stops and carried unknown cargo. They stopped at least once in Seattle at Boeing Field, and again in Bellingham, WA, and once in California. In Alaska, they stopped at Dutch Harbor, Kodiak and other locations. “When the fish piled up the price became very attractive, and we went,’ said X, who estimated that they flew two or three times per month. Their last flight together was a run to Homer, Alaska, where they blew a tire on landing. It took several days to replace the tire – “It was a real drill,” said X, as the airfield at Homer had no equipment to do the job, and a rag-tag crew of local contractors had to be assembled to provide the necessary gear, such as air compressors to pump the fixed tire with 200 psi of nitrogen. By the time they returned to Salt Lake City - sometime before the Thanksgiving Day weekend - so much time had elapsed and the schedule so disrupted that the boss of Sail Fish told his crew to take the rest of the time off, up to and including the Thanksgiving holiday weekend. That was the last time X ever saw Don Burnsworth, who never returned to work nor contacted him or anyone at Sail Fish. When X returned to work on the Monday morning following the Thanksgiving weekend, he was called into his company’s conference room and was met by three federal officials. X believes that two were FBI and the third was FAA. The three were dressed in black suits. “They introduced themselves as “Inspector this and Inspector that, and Special Agent so and so,” X said. Later, X told me that one agent’s name was “Kennedy,” and a “Burns” might have been the FAA guy, who might have been out of Denver or SLC. “Then they held up an artist’s sketch and asked me, ‘Do you know who this is?’ “‘Yeah, it’s Don Burnsworth,’ I told them,” X said. “The agents said it was an artist’s sketch of DB Cooper, and at the bottom of the flyer it said, “Wanted.’ I just said ‘Oh, My God.’” X stated that the sketch looked just like Burnsworth, adding that later composite sketches of DB Cooper looked less like Burnsworth. “They lost something in the eyes,” X related. When I asked X about the details of the federal interview, he became uncharacteristically circumspect and refused to reveal any specific information. “I’m not even going to go there,” he announced to me. “It’s all of a confidential nature.” However, he did say that the nature of the questioning revealed that the agents knew that Burnsworth had an extensive military background, particularly with parachuting and special forces-type of training and combat experience. X told me that the feds let him know that Burnsworth would have viewed the Cooper jump out of a 727 “as just another HALO jump.” X said that the feds let him know that Burnsworth had multiple tours of duty in Vietnam. “But I don’t know if it was with Air America or the CIA or the Air Force. Plus, he had the training to jump out of planes at night. So, he might have been Special Forces, too.” And lastly, “They had a lot of time and money invested in him.” Adding to the mystery is an event that may or may not be related to Don Burnsworth. X relates that a buddy of his was a member of the Utah National Guard and when X told him his Burnsworth-is-Cooper story, the friend shared his own mysterious story. X’s friend said that the Utah NG staged night HALO training jumps in early November, 1971. On one particular jump a stranger joined them. This individual was older than everyone else, who were all recently returned Vietnam airborne troops and in their twenties. Hence, the young troopers called their newcomer “Gramps,” and they ribbed him on the way up to height. When they reached altitude, they called out, “C’mon Gramps, show us how it’s done.” “Gramps” in turn calmly stepped to the door and without hesitation jumped. That was the last anyone ever saw of him. All the troopers reached their landing zone, and they reported Gramps as “missing in action.” However, whatever happened to Gramps was never shared with the troopers who jumped with him that night. X believes that Burnsworth was Gramps and was fine-tuning his night time jumping skills, and sailed away from his “youngins” as an act of one-upmanship. X says the officer in charge of the jump was an individual named Williams or Williamson. As for Don Burnsworth’s physical characteristics, X describes Burnsworth as being slightly smaller and thinner than he is. Since X is 6’2” and 200, he pegs Burnsworth at 5’10”- 5’11” and 170-180. He also described Burnsworth as a quiet guy who kept to himself, and a very intelligent man. “He was extremely skilled commercial pilot,” said X. “He saved my life on two occasions.” One of those occasions was at Boeing Field, where they narrowly missed an eight-foot fence on take-off. “He was calm under pressure. He was even calm after the pressure,” said X. “He could fly a DC-7 right to the edge.” X also said that Burnsworth smoked, although he doesn’t remember if they were Raleighs. Burnsworth also drank, and again X can’t remember if it was Bourbon. Burnsworth never spoke about any time in the military. “It was as if he mentally avoided talking about the military.” Nevertheless, Burnsworth described the mid-west as home. “I can’t remember exactly where in the mid-west – but it was someplace like Indiana or Ohio,” X said. He also said that Burnsworth told him that he was going through a "nasty" divorce. Upon further questioning, X revealed a lot of information that blasts open the question of who Don Burnsworth was and what was going on at Sail Fish and in other operations. X said that two others were part of the DC-7-C crew who flew with him and Burnsworth. One of the crew, the Flight Engineer, Bill Munson also worked for Zantop Aviation, a contract operation for the CIA and related to Air America. Munson was a cracker-jack mechanic, too, and had an A&P license – a certification – to work on the radial engines of the DC-7s. “Bill was one of the old dogs,” X said, explaining that Zantop was a government contractor who flew C-46 and DC-4s, vintage craft from WWII and the Korean War, and utilized veteran crews. The fourth crew member was Bob Cupil, whom X described as the “primary co-pilot.” In addition, X said that Cupil flew for Zantop. X said that generally the four of them flew together, although sometimes, apparently Cupil was not present so X sat in as co-pilot. He stated that his “job was to make sure everything was ready,” which meant handling the logistics, loading the cargo, and coordinate with HQ, besides being able to “help fly the plane.” In addition, X said that the guy who sold the DC-7 to Sail Fish was a guy named Jack Richards or Richardson, and that he also sold aircraft to Air America. “He knew the Air America boys,” X said. Lastly, the DC-7-C that X and Burnsworth flew, serial number N75000, ended up in Columbia by 1980 and owned by a Kenneth L. Meeks. There is a web posting showing the aircraft on an undisclosed, rural, dirt air field at that time, and copy that says the aircraft was rigged to self-destruct via a short in a wiring harness if it was tampered with, which is exactly what happened subsequently. X gives every indication that he believes Don Burnsworth is DB Cooper, and that he escaped to Columbia. “Where could a guy like Burnsworth, with those kinds of skills – being a captain for Untied Airlines - go and live and not be detected? Either Columbia or Africa.” X adds: “Burnsworth could have walked into Portland Airport, retrieved his UAL uniform and been out of the county in twelve hours.” ................................ My follow-up. All my efforts to locate and contact Don Burnsworth have been unsuccessful. I do not know if he is still alive, even. Curiously, the website for retired United pilots has been down for the past few weeks. X has been active, recently, in trying to find Burnsworth and the other principals. Efforts to locate Jack Richards have also met with dead ends, although we think we have traced him to Onyx Aviation in Sequim, WA. I have had a subsequent interview with X, and he has spoken with Jo several times, too. I find X to be credible. 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SKYWHUFFO 0 #17450 May 5, 2010 "Curiously, the website for retired United pilots has been down for the past few weeks" Remember, United and Continetal just announce their "merger" So their records, are probably going to be screwed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
