DB Cooper

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I want to apologize.

I should not have been so vague (and sort of mysterious). My only excuse is that it was late and I had a long day.

As I said before, I have had no time to look at the chart myself. I view myself as a librarian more than an investigator and sharing the info is more important to me than cogitating how the info might affect my beliefs about NORJAK.

The first thing I noticed (I was tipped off by Robert before the file arrived) was that what is now the BTG VORTAC was then the PDX VOR. [BTW: This is shown on the FBI’s Sectional, I just never noticed it.] It was the same frequency, same location just a different name.

PDX is now the PORTLAND VOR/DME located “on field at PDX Airport. On the 1971 L-1 the airport was I-PDX.

So what needs to be done is to re-scan all the flight communications and find references to PDX. Why? Because there is an 11 statute mile difference between the 1971 PDX (the nav-aid) and current PDX the airport. I had thought (yesterday) that one of the reporting points that I plotted on my “missing minute” plot was expressed as “On V-23 XX DME from PDX". This morning I’m thinking it might have been reference to SEA instead of PDX. I may be wrong, but I’ll have to have time to re-think it. (It’s been two years and I’ve slept since then.)

So, is this going to solve NORJAK? Probably not, but it may shed some light on the possibility of a different jump location. It will give us a chance to argue “Interpreted language” used by the crew vs. “perceived language” as we hear it today. It’s sort of like the flaps issue (i.e. Did Cooper say “Flaps down,” “landing configuration,” or “flaps to 15-degrees.”)

I’m hoping the L-2 chart will have a symbol-legend on it to help me understand the symbol-ogy of 1971.

Quote

quade said:
BTW, it would be nice if the scans were straightened and matched in resolution. Doing that by hand is a pita for most people.

I’m sorry that I didn’t meet your expectations. You may copy them from my site, resize them, and place them on your site. Then your expectations will be met. I mistakenly though that, after hundreds of dollars and months of work (on Robert’s part), getting them out (for free) to serious investigators was more important.

Quote

377 said: Who is R Nicholson?

He is a person who is seriously trying to do analysis of the flight dynamics and possible errors in the FBI-determined LZ. He certainly has the background to do it. He doesn’t post on DZ.com because your favorite (former) poster was snide and sarcastic when he sent a PM asking a serious question. See A Post About Robert.





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Sluggo's Quotable Quotes:
"I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me."
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Web Page
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NORJAK Forum

[georger 197]

Quote

I want to apologize.

I should not have been so vague (and sort of mysterious). My only excuse is that it was late and I had a long day.

As I said before, I have had no time to look at the chart myself. I view myself as a librarian more than an investigator and sharing the info is more important to me than cogitating how the info might affect my beliefs about NORJAK.

maybe this will help -

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Quote

I want to apologize.

I should not have been so vague (and sort of mysterious). My only excuse is that it was late and I had a long day.

As I said before, I have had no time to look at the chart myself. I view myself as a librarian more than an investigator and sharing the info is more important to me than cogitating how the info might affect my beliefs about NORJAK.

maybe this will help -

OMG.. conclusive proof finally...

[Orange1 0]

LOL! well spotted guys!!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[quade 3]

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Amazon 7]

Quote

OK you.. would you get on HH's butt about the SORELY needed j/k or /sarcasm icons already....

Sheesh...

[377 21]

Send my thanks to Mr Nicholson. It is comforting to know there are people outside of the asylum who share the so called delusions of the inmates.

How does the door placard find fit in with your thoughts about the corrected flight path Sluggo?

Thanks for the graphics post Georger. Have you bagged that Kurdistan station yert? I havent heard them since Friday.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Quote

Send my thanks to Mr Nicholson. It is comforting to know there are people outside of the asylum who share the so called delusions of the inmates.

How does the door placard find fit in with your thoughts about the corrected flight path Sluggo?

Thanks for the graphics post Georger. Have you bagged that Kurdistan station yert? I havent heard them since Friday.

377

got the yert but no kurd..
our wacko friend down the road says she's going to build a yert and live in it .... guess theyare big in CA? ... county says nope. I have referred here to Jerry or Sluggo!

What corrected fp? Is L1 being offered as a corrected
fp? Didnt see Sluggo saying anything like that ...

[georger 197]

Quote

Send my thanks to Mr Nicholson. It is comforting to know there are people outside of the asylum who share the so called delusions of the inmates.

How does the door placard find fit in with your thoughts about the corrected flight path Sluggo?

Thanks for the graphics post Georger. Have you bagged that Kurdistan station yert? I havent heard them since Friday.

377

Dont you have some friend who knows aviation maps
history? who would be able to nail exactly what map the FBI (Ckret) map was scribbled on? I would think
that easy for someone with map knowledge??

[skyjack71 0]

The plane DID NOT go over Portland - The on the ground reports put the plane between Camas and Portland and going near Troutdale airport.

There is only ONE person alive who can tell you were that plane was. Have any of you actually spoke to that person? No pilot in his right mind would take a plane directly over Portland with a bomb aboard...there is protocol in these situations. Protocol was followed.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Quote

The plane DID NOT go over Portland - The on the ground reports put the plane between Camas and Portland and going near Troutdale airport.

There is only ONE person alive who can tell you were that plane was. Have any of you actually spoke to that person? No pilot in his right mind would take a plane directly over Portland with a bomb aboard...there is protocol in these situations. Protocol was followed.

But have YOU talked to that person?
Yes or No is all that is required.

I can call and ask that person tomorrow -

My bet is: you have never talked to that person
primarily because that person would never knowingly
talk to you about anything.

So everything you say is what? Heresay?

It "sounds" as if you are suddenly now adopting
Jerry's scenario, that 305 went through Troutdale?
Wouldnt that be a hoot!

[Sluggo_Monster 0]

I have posted (on my site and referenced it here) a Low Level Enroute Chart valid from Nov. 11 to Dec. 9, 1971. The current chart during NORJAK and the one which would have been supplied to the flight crew of Flt 305.

I haven’t even had a chance to look it over yet. I am not stating, or implying that this changes anything as far as actual flight path. I am not implying or stating that Flt. 305 passed over the City of Portland or over Portland International Airport.

The only thing I have stated, is, that what is now called the BTG VORTAC was called PDX VORTAC at that time. I also suggested that you guys search through logs, transcripts, and any other data you might have for references to distance from PDX (remember Sluggo = Librarian, you guys = Researchers and Investigators). This might show that previous assumptions based on reported distance from PDX (the airport) were really 11 statute miles North of previously assumed, because they were actually referencing PDX (the VORTAC now called BTG).

I am not a scientist by profession (even though I have held the title “Senior Scientist,” but that’s just the guv’ment’s way of getting me the money I asked for) but I do try to apply the scientific method. That means… tiny little incremental steps, not giant leaps.

I have provided you with another tool… nothing more… nothing less.

I’ve been at this (studying NORJAK) for about 35 years now, I’m patient, I can take time to think, study, and learn… and then form theories.






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Sluggo’s Quoteable Quotes:
“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman who needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” - - - - - - 2 Timothy 2:15 (21st Century King James Version)

[Not bad… for an atheist… huh?]
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Web Page
Blog
NORJAK Forum

[skyjack71 0]

Regarding my communications with those outside of this forum:

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Quote

Regarding my communications with those outside of this forum:

I already made my call, yesterday. The answer was an emphatic "NO!" so the party has never talked to
you directly.

So there is your answer, Ms. Weber.

[edit] In addition; your husband or whatever he was,
never was at buDop in the 1960s or at any other time. Nor did he ever have US Army Ranger training,
Special Forces training, or any other type of special training while affiliated with the US Govt that people who keep records can document. Your suppositions posted here at Dropzone suggesting specialised training were turned over to the proper authorities under the DOD to investigate, a long time ago...

[skyjack71 0]

Jo Stated:


Georger Replied:
"I already made my call, yesterday. The answer was an emphatic "NO!" so the party has never talked to
you directly."

"So there is your answer, Ms. Weber."

[edit] "In addition; your husband or whatever he was,
never was at buDop in the 1960s or at any other time. Nor did he ever have US Army Ranger training,
Special Forces training, or any other type of special training while affiliated with the US Govt that people who keep records can document. Your suppositions posted here at Dropzone suggesting specialised training were turned over to the proper authorities under the DOD to investigate, a long time ago..."

======================


No you didn't and NO the FBI has NOT looked at BuDop - and/or Duane's connections. The FBI doesn't investigate anything - much less something proposed in a forum. If you have knowledge of that - then either you are FBI or again field agents are discussing information with outside individuals. You have absolutely NO idea what is going on - if you claim you do then you post your sources.

To ALL:
Note how Georger made his statement: " Nor did he ever have US Army Ranger training,
Special Forces training, or any other type of special training while affiliated with the US Govt that people who keep records can document." Using Sluggo's thing - the emphasis are mine

I will not dual with him as an unknown in a forum. If he wishes to reveal himself and/or the FBI wishes to make a formal statement then they should do so. There were coverts at BuDop and acknowledgement by the CIA may never happen. Don't forget the covert CIA under contractors. Contractor actions sanctioned and un-sanctioned by our government (remain unrecorded) and they will go to every extreme to keep these secrets - till the end of time if they can do so.

If he wishes to discuss contractors outside of the government and actions not recorded, he will have to do that face to face. It has only been in recent yrs that the government HAS been forced to keep files on these contractors, because with the world now being much more aware - keeping the actions of these groups silent is no longer possible...note the recent happening oversea within the last 2 yrs...

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[skyjack71 0]

Information will be submitted to the FBI formally along with requests they investigate a part of Duane's life they only gave a cursory look at (or did they just turn their heads). The paper work is long and tedious - I have asked individuals who have followed my search for yrs to help me condense what we need to have the FBI look at and WHY.

A phone call to the FBI revealed the new agents DON't even know who Cooper was and they are NOT investigating these things. So I was requested to make the information available to the FBI in BLACK AND WHITE. We will do this but, at the same time make this information available to the public - (one of which will be this thread if it is still open when we get this done).

We should have this information ready within the next 3 wks. It is some of the same information I have provided in the past - but each time I dealt with a new agent and they didn't put it together. In the past I have mentioned all of this to the FBI, but there was so much for them to absorb they didn't see it - and I just let it go. Upon my relating information to an individual who called me about Cooper - I was reviewing some of the dates from actual files. ONE thing led to another AND then another and then another. This remarkable person's mind suddenly started to click, click and he put the pieces together with date that I could not. I had tried to get the FBI to listen...but my mind does NOT work like others - who relate information in an organized pattern with a specific goal in mind.

I contacted the FBI (BY PHONE) and they said it would take a warrant to get the information I was requesting. I asked how do you get a warrant on a dead man's property who didn't exist - this regards a safety deposit box and the information behind that box and if it was left open. Duane had taken care of everything, but my stupidity - I didn't listen and I didn't look. There will be a trail from 1980 when a box was opened in a distance city and when that box was visited in 1990...he may have again paid it forward.

Anyone remember my talking about Duane's friend who went with him on a trip in early 1990(where he left the friend for 2 days while Duane made a trip he didn't want me to know about). Upon returning from this trip is when Duane opened another box, but this time under the name of Duane L. Weber - the one I was only aware of after his death. The magazine...was there. After this trip is when Duane was caught counting out a considerable amount of money...and that information was also suppied to the FBI.

He had removed everything from the new box opened in 1990 except the magazine .... just about 3 months prior to his death....and before going to the hospital he withdraws all of the money in his checking acct. and tells me to put it in the joint acct...he also closed out his savings account.

Now I know why he wanted to go for a ride (while in the hospital)- why he was so concerned about the van - it was the "other" things he wanted me to have - but I screwed up because I didn't find what he had in the van...I wasn't listening. So it has taken 14 yrs to unravel all of this - these same items where right in front of the FBI all of these yrs and they didn't see it and I told them about the safe deposite boxes and they did not listen to me.

Talking about the book - the agent told me to "mail it". I replied "Over My Dead Body" and that the FBI would see the actual book only if they could produce evidence it did belong to someone on that plane, otherwise this is private property until they can show proof it is evidence. I will make a copy of the cover available to them - if they need it.

Duane took me to a "city" in 1980 or late 1979 - it had wide streets - double lanes and parking on the sides. It was a bright town - the buildings where light in color and the buildings on this street were 2 - 4 stories high.

Duane left me in the car because he said he had to see a man he knew there about business (this was a several hour drive from our home and in a state he was not licensed to sell insurance - IT WAS ALSO A CITY WHERE HE WAS KNOWN only AS JOHN COLLINS.

Of course I can already hear JT claiming I am creating fantasy - except I actually told the fbi and others about this for yrs. I never expounded on it, because I didn't know Duane was known in this area only as John Collins. I didn't put the dates together for them.

For yrs I have searched unclaimed properties under different names and when I found one that felt right I repeatedly asked the FBI agent for proof that Duane was John Collins so I could make application about the contents of the boxes. You have to show proof of relationship if they are deceased and have the personal information available. I had NO will from John Collins or any way to prove I was married to John Collins.

If any of you have POSITIVE feed and can help me with this outline for the FBI it will be appreciated. Please do this in a PM. There are several on this thread who know the case well and also know my "story" well ...therefore your input will be very valuable - might help us include something we might miss.

Any help will be appreciated in this matter - but please do not slam me in the thread. Make your "slams" in PM's. Any positive information you think might need to be included in this formal letter to the FBI regarding Weber we might miss...is appreciated.]

I am asking the forum and the readers to help me...once this is done the FBI won't hear from me again.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

If you stick to hard evidence Jo your outline will be very short indeed.

If you add speculation, implication, unsupported conclusions etc it will be huge.

If you really think that Duane Weber was a CIA operative, Ranger trained, a parachutist and was at Bu Dop then I really feel sympathy for you. There is a huge difference between hopes and proof, but to you the line between them is sadly insignificant.

If you stick to provable facts, the FBI outline will be very easy to prepare. You won't need any editing asisistance.

Sluggo. How about some more CAVA? Anyone?

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[1969912 0]

Quote

How about some more CAVA? Anyone?

Sounds like a plan. The L-2 chart and PDX/BTG VOR location issue deserves a close look.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[georger 197]

Quote

If you stick to hard evidence Jo your outline will be very short indeed.

If you add speculation, implication, unsupported conclusions etc it will be huge.

If you really think that Duane Weber was a CIA operative, Ranger trained, a parachutist and was at Bu Dop then I really feel sympathy for you. There is a huge difference between hopes and proof, but to you the line between them is sadly insignificant.

If you stick to provable facts, the FBI outline will be very easy to prepare. You won't need any editing asisistance.

Sluggo. How about some more CAVA? Anyone?

377

Any progress on nailing down the
date and registration of the FBI map? That should
be ane asy one for a map historian.

[edit] BTW: Jo's history is never listening to advice
from anyone, much less anyone here. Do you seriously think she will take your advice now? Jo is
on a mission, the depth of which we avoid here;
silence is better than open thought here. But I like
Jo's RED-WHITE-AND-BLUE typos now. That's being
"American" for effect. Jo is a tea party?

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

If you stick to hard evidence Jo your outline will be very short indeed.

If you add speculation, implication, unsupported conclusions etc it will be huge.

If you really think that Duane Weber was a CIA operative, Ranger trained, a parachutist and was at Bu Dop then I really feel sympathy for you. There is a huge difference between hopes and proof, but to you the line between them is sadly insignificant.

If you stick to provable facts, the FBI outline will be very easy to prepare. You won't need any editing asisistance.

377

BuDop was presented only because of the Soldier of Fortune Magazine he place in a safe deposit box 3 months before he died - exploring Bu Dop and the other articles in that magazine - there was a significant reason why he put that in the safety deposit box - a box I was unaware of.

Duane was involved in some activity in MX, TX going up to WA and OR...and if the FBI ever traced the past of Ed Huran they would be able to track Duane during that time - maybe they already did. These guys were not doing something on the up and up - what I gathered from the conversation I had on that evening in 1978 with Ed.

Exactly what this activity was - I don't know, but Duane had Mafia and/or CIA connections - because some of the people he introduced me personally to, have known pasts related to the above. The FBI knows this.

There is a difference between Covert CIA and the renegade employees of operatives who operated below the CIA level, but did "dirty" work...that could never be connected to the CIA. Perhaps it was a front for other illegal activities? It is not important. It is his association with certain "fellows" where he learned enough to do what he did (be it a military action, a covert action or a civilian action).
Identifying Ed Huran's past will clear ALL of this up.

1958 to 1960. Duane Weber was in El Paso County in Colorado. I had thought the records meant El Paso Tx, but Colorado throws an entirely different kink into his past...a traceable one.

Living in Nebraska as John Collins is also traceable - difficult only because of the yrs that have gone by. This is why when we went to Omaha (at least this is where I think we went) I was instructed to STAY in the car. Whatever he had to do in that bank was under the name of John Collins and NOT Duane Weber otherwise I would have been asked to go in with him.

Same with The Fountane Blue in Miami - John Collins. Same with the guys in ALabama - calling him John...one from clear across the Mall. Both of these guys presented a mysterious past. One talking about a camp and the paintings of the camp. The other telling me Duane knew people in HIGH places and to drop my investigation.

Whatever Duane did in this respect was under the name John C. Collins. Johnny (for the Johnny jar) had a past - and why?
The FBI can't explain why they were looking for John Collins - and they never will.

John Collins sold insurance in Nebraska and Ks. John Collins.

The "Government" was looking for DUANE WEBER/JOHN COLLINS immediately after he got out of Jefferson...and there are family statements to this matter. The FBI ever explained this...in 1968 they went to his Brother-in-law's in CO. looking for him. The FBI never explained this one either...did they just dismiss the charges or forget about them????
WHY were they looking for John Collins in 1968 after he had been released from Jefferson?

Duane and his family flee to New Orleans and then to AL. and then to GA and S.C. WHY WERE THE FED's CHASING HIM DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME? They never arrested him - but the wife knew some things were going on in GA and S.C. and the running from the Law stopped in GA. in 1971..WHY? No one -NOT even the FBI, has ever answered this question. WHY the law was looking for him after his release from Jefferson in 1968...his sudden exit from Co. in 1968 - taking with them 4 children to N.O. fleeing the authorities.

Why in 1971 did the FED's leave him be? What charges was he being pursued on? Did they just drop the charges - how did they settle this? What would have been the reason if they didn't have a cause. The FBI has NEVER answered this question. None of you ever proposed an solution for the above - and the FBI sure kept quiet about it.

Have anyone of you ever thought about WHY the above circumstances where NEVER explained? If he was wanted for another CRIME - what happened? Why didn't the FBI pursue this - WHY were they searching for him? Did they just want to question him about something? WHAT? WHY did they stop in 1971 - what did DUANE do. FED's don't run around chasing someone without a reason...now I hope some of you understand WHY I keep ex-pounding that things DO NOT ADD UP!

This has to incorporated into the letter briefly - but, not in a manner it can be ignored.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[BruceSmith 3]

Sluggo. How about some more CAVA? Anyone?

Quote

Before we move on, what exactly is the deal with the two maps Sluggo has provided us. I gather the new evidence shows the FBI was eleven miles off in it's calculations of the LZ in Cooper Country. Am I correct on this?

If so, in what direction? Is the new thinking that Cooper jumped closer to Portland or closer to Seattle?

Thanks

• Quote

[1969912 0]

If "BTG", the VOR near Battleground, was then called "Portland", then the LZ might be ~North by the distance between BTG and Portland Int'l Airport (PDX). That would put the LZ closer to the original FBI estimate IMHO.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

To clarify:

If the pilot reported "X miles from (~North of) Portland VOR", they may have actually been X miles from (~North) of Battleground, and not PDX.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[georger 197]

Quote

Sluggo. How about some more CAVA? Anyone?

Quote

Before we move on, what exactly is the deal with the two maps Sluggo has provided us. I gather the new evidence shows the FBI was eleven miles off in it's calculations of the LZ in Cooper Country. Am I correct on this?

If so, in what direction? Is the new thinking that Cooper jumped closer to Portland or closer to Seattle?

Thanks

Hi Bruce. Hope you are well...
I'll let Sluggo explain this charts but the new charts
L1/L2 are authentic 1971 issue whereas the FBI chart
is thought be a later chart, after 1971 - nobody seems sure of its date or provenance including Ckret.

When Sluggo compared the two charts he found
the Battle Ground VOR shown on the FBI chart is
missing or renamed (and in a different position?)
vrs. the 1971 chart. Look at the blowup I posted. The BTG VOR on the FBI chart seems to be combined
on the L1 chart and named PDX/BTG ... nobody
seems sure of the implications of this.

The FBI flight path map was based on radar plots
so regardless of where BTG VOR was or was not
on either map I would think the issue does not
alter the flight path .............. ???

This is what 1969912 is referring to in his post above. Quade didn't see anything astounding?
Im just copying the mail and waiting ...

Jerry has left DZ for a while due to time issues ...

• Quote

[georger 197]

Quote

To clarify:

If the pilot reported "X miles from (~North of) Portland VOR", they may have actually been X miles from (~North) of Battleground, and not PDX.

If the FBI map is a radar plot map what does it
matter where BTG VOR was or what a pilot reported?

Radar is independent.