DB Cooper

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

I am not missing anything, I just asked a question.

Let me try the simplest answer possible which is "no".  Does that answer your question? 

But the airliner is always flying straight into the wind except in the situations previously mentioned.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Robert99

[FLYJACK 654]

9 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Let me try the simplest answer possible which is "no".  Does that answer your question? 

But the airliner is always flying straight into the wind except in the situations previously mentioned.

OK, so you are saying that for 305 being hand flown dirty, gear down and flaps down, there would be no reason or advantage to fly straight into the wind vs a crosswind.. the wind would have no effect on the path..

Now, why do you claim 305 had to fly down the middle of V-23.

Edited September 8, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

11 hours ago, Robert99 said:

There is no such remark in the Seattle ATC Center's radio communications transcripts that have been publicly released.

Consequently, this has to be in the unredacted version of the Seattle ATC Center's radio transcripts which has not been publicly released.  And which the FAA and the FBI are sitting on.

Since some people on this site claim that there is no unredacted version of those transcripts, I am sure they will be very inventive in explaining away Rataczak's comments.

Everyone knows there are redactions,,  the argument that redactions are evidence of a WFP is a leap too far.

[FLYJACK 654]

Blevins backtracks slightly but is still wrong..

There was no SOL for Air Piracy for Cooper... McCoy or Hahneman...

Himmelsbach pursued a John Doe warrant for some unknown reason. Publicity stunt?

 

The effect of a publicized "John Doe" warrant was to stop Cooper from coming forward (if alive) in the future... It would have caused Cooper to stay quiet believing there was no SOL... If he thought there was an SOL he may have talked.

This is very odd because in 1976 the FBI concluded that there wasn't enough evidence to convict Cooper without his co-operation.

The unnecessary JD warrant ensured that Cooper would not co-operate and ended the ability to solve the case until DNA came along much later.

 

At the time there were false reports that there was an SOL.. why would the FBI get a JD warrant... to make the case near impossible to solve.. leverage to keep Cooper quiet...

Edited September 8, 2023 by FLYJACK

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

OK, so you are saying that for 305 being hand flown dirty, gear down and flaps down, there would be no reason or advantage to fly straight into the wind vs a crosswind.. the wind would have no effect on the path..

Now, why do you claim 305 had to fly down the middle of V-23.

FlyJack, you still do not understand the situation here.  So here we go again and please pay attention.

The airliner is ALWAYS flying straight into the wind except possibly during takeoff and landings and when the pilot is deliberately side slipping the aircraft.  The direction of the winds at altitude does not mean anything in this regard.

The winds aloft DO have an effect on the ground path.  The pilot has to do some calculations, unless he is tracking a VOR radial or some such thing, to achieve the desired ground path.

If the winds aloft are parallel to the desired ground path, then the airliner has a pure headwind or tailwind component.  If the winds aloft are at an angle to the desired ground path, the pilot will have to do some calculations, as described above, to determine the geographical direction the nose of the aircraft should be pointed to achieve the desired ground path.

But at altitude the aircraft is ALWAYS flying directly into the wind and the configuration of the flaps and landing gear is irrelevant.

There is an FAA rule that aircraft are to stay on the centerline of Victor airways.  There was no reason for 305 to be three miles off that centerline.  It certainly did not have any problem staying on the V-23 centerline south of Portland.

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

Everyone knows there are redactions,,  the argument that redactions are evidence of a WFP is a leap too far.

I certainly agree that "everyone knows there are redactions", but several people on this site refuse to admit it and claim otherwise.

If you don't know what the redactions are, how can you claim they are not evidence of a Western Flight Path?  You seem to have some unusual "insights" into things that are not known.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Robert99

[FLYJACK 654]

40 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

FlyJack, you still do not understand the situation here.  So here we go again and please pay attention.

The airliner is ALWAYS flying straight into the wind except possibly during takeoff and landings and when the pilot is deliberately side slipping the aircraft.  The direction of the winds at altitude does not mean anything in this regard.

The winds aloft DO have an effect on the ground path.  The pilot has to do some calculations, unless he is tracking a VOR radial or some such thing, to achieve the desired ground path.

If the winds aloft are parallel to the desired ground path, then the airliner has a pure headwind or tailwind component.  If the winds aloft are at an angle to the desired ground path, the pilot will have to do some calculations, as described above, to determine the geographical direction the nose of the aircraft should be pointed to achieve the desired ground path.

But at altitude the aircraft is ALWAYS flying directly into the wind and the configuration of the flaps and landing gear is irrelevant.

There is an FAA rule that aircraft are to stay on the centerline of Victor airways.  There was no reason for 305 to be three miles off that centerline.  It certainly did not have any problem staying on the V-23 centerline south of Portland.

Now, you finally get it..

What effect does the winds aloft have on the path of 305 hand flying dirty??

Is it irrelevant, does a sidewind push it to one side, is it beneficial for a pilot to point straight into the winds aloft??

What FAA rule, sounds like nonsense for 305.. they had cleared skies..

[FLYJACK 654]

40 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

I certainly agree that "everyone knows there are redactions", but several people on this site refuse to admit it and claim otherwise.

If you don't know what the redactions are, how can you claim they are not evidence of a Western Flight Path?  You seem to have some unusual "insights" into things that are not known.

 

It is called logic... you can't claim an unknown is evidence. You can speculate what was redacted.. but the fact that there was a redaction isn't evidence.

If that were the standard we would have thousands of Reca's....

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, FLYJACK said:

 

It is called logic... you can't claim an unknown is evidence. You can speculate what was redacted.. but the fact that there was a redaction isn't evidence.

If that were the standard we would have thousands of Reca's....

Nineteen redactions are evidence that the so-called FBI flight path has problems.  Where is your evidence for ANY flight path.

How do you explain Georger's claim that there are not any redactions?  I'm sure that he will deny ever making such a claim.

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

Now, you finally get it..

What effect does the winds aloft have on the path of 305 hand flying dirty??

Is it irrelevant, does a sidewind push it to one side, is it beneficial for a pilot to point straight into the winds aloft??

What FAA rule, sounds like nonsense for 305.. they had cleared skies..

FlyJack, there was no "sidewind" on the aircraft as I have explained to you about a dozen times.

Your refusal to learn anything about aircraft navigation reveals a very closed mind.  And the same goes for your knowledge of the Federal Air Regulations.

This matter is closed as far as I am concerned.  Talking to you is a waste of time.

[georger 197]

3 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Nineteen redactions are evidence that the so-called FBI flight path has problems.  Where is your evidence for ANY flight path.

How do you explain Georger's claim that there are not any redactions?  I'm sure that he will deny ever making such a claim.

FlyJack, there was no "sidewind" on the aircraft as I have explained to you about a dozen times.

Your refusal to learn anything about aircraft navigation reveals a very closed mind.  And the same goes for your knowledge of the Federal Air Regulations.

This matter is closed as far as I am concerned.  Talking to you is a waste of time.

Lol!  The Cooper forum is an open forum and beyond your personal control!  You dont control the discussion. Any claim that you do, is absurd.

The FBI didnt even go so far as to claim  of a 'direct' connection between the money find at Tena Bar and the flight path of 305. Some people are just prone to blaming conspiracies for everything. You appear to be one of those. 

 

[olemisscub 466]

45 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Nineteen redactions are evidence that the so-called FBI flight path has problems. 

How many times does this have to be spelled out for you? The redactions are about OTHER AIRCRAFT. 

[FLYJACK 654]

2 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Nineteen redactions are evidence that the so-called FBI flight path has problems.  Where is your evidence for ANY flight path.

How do you explain Georger's claim that there are not any redactions?  I'm sure that he will deny ever making such a claim.

FlyJack, there was no "sidewind" on the aircraft as I have explained to you about a dozen times.

Your refusal to learn anything about aircraft navigation reveals a very closed mind.  And the same goes for your knowledge of the Federal Air Regulations.

This matter is closed as far as I am concerned.  Talking to you is a waste of time.

You haven't explained anything,,, I was asking you a simple question.

The FBI estimated a W to SW wind,, that is a sidewind.. the plane was flying slightly SSE between about Ariel and Battleground.

Evidence indicates that wind was shifting between SW and SE during the stretch.

My question is would the wind have any effect on the path Rataczak took hand flying a dirty jet.. would the wind push the jet East, would Rataczak fly straight into the wind or what...

[Robert99 37]

5 hours ago, georger said:

Lol!  The Cooper forum is an open forum and beyond your personal control!  You dont control the discussion. Any claim that you do, is absurd.

The FBI didnt even go so far as to claim  of a 'direct' connection between the money find at Tena Bar and the flight path of 305. Some people are just prone to blaming conspiracies for everything. You appear to be one of those. 

 

Georger, do you know which planet you are on?  Now you appear to be suggesting that the money found at Tena Bar doesn't have anything to do with the hijacking.

[Robert99 37]

5 hours ago, olemisscub said:

How many times does this have to be spelled out for you? The redactions are about OTHER AIRCRAFT. 

Olemiss, you need to read FlyJack's post that quoted Rataczak as telling the Seattle ATC that Cooper had jumped.  That quote from Rataczak does not appear in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.  It's definitely related to 305.

There is nothing to suggest that any other aircraft was on the same frequency as 305.  If you feel otherwise, please list the source of your information.

It should be noted in this regard that the Oakland ATC controller told the Air Rescue C-130 to not transmit on the same VHF frequency that the airliner was on, and no other aircraft did either..

Edited September 9, 2023 by Robert99

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

You haven't explained anything,,, I was asking you a simple question.

The FBI estimated a W to SW wind,, that is a sidewind.. the plane was flying slightly SSE between about Ariel and Battleground.

Evidence indicates that wind was shifting between SW and SE during the stretch.

My question is would the wind have any effect on the path Rataczak took hand flying a dirty jet.. would the wind push the jet East, would Rataczak fly straight into the wind or what...

There is no evidence of any wind from the southeast at altitude during the hijacking.  The winds aloft at 10,000 feet were from the southwest.

The fact that the landing gear and flaps were down doesn't figure into anything except the airspeed of the aircraft.

Rataczak was always flying straight into the wind.  The airliner was never flying sideways.  To stay on V-23, the airliner had to point the nose of the aircraft slightly west of the V-23 track.  This has been explained several times above.

[olemisscub 466]

2 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Olemiss, you need to read FlyJack's post that quoted Rataczak as telling the Seattle ATC that Cooper had jumped.  That quote from Rataczak does not appear in the Seattle ATC radio transcripts.  It definitely related to 305.

I'm not sure what Fly believes about it, but I don't believe Rat made that quote. He essentially tells the FBI that he regrets not doing so. If Rat actually said something about the pressure bump, he said it to the rest of the crew, not over the air. 

[FLYJACK 654]

32 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

There is no evidence of any wind from the southeast at altitude during the hijacking.  The winds aloft at 10,000 feet were from the southwest.

The fact that the landing gear and flaps were down doesn't figure into anything except the airspeed of the aircraft.

Rataczak was always flying straight into the wind.  The airliner was never flying sideways.  To stay on V-23, the airliner had to point the nose of the aircraft slightly west of the V-23 track.  This has been explained several times above.

What are you doing, you are spouting nonsense now, nobody claimed the plane was flying sideways, clearly you have no understanding of this simple issue.

And, you are wrong,, there is no evidence that winds aloft between about Ariel and Battleground were W-SW.. 

Wind was an estimate.. The FBI admitted that they used Portland and Salem as a proxy. The wrong time and place.

The winds were shifting. We don't know what the winds were when and where Cooper jumped.

Not Tom's balloon data, not the FBI file data.

The winds were SW to SE where Cooper jumped..  it was shifting in the area.

The point is we don't know the wind direction for certain.

 

I just remembered that I know a current commercial pilot,, I'll ask him. You are aren't helping.

So, just forget about it.

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by FLYJACK

[FLYJACK 654]

39 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

I'm not sure what Fly believes about it, but I don't believe Rat made that quote. He essentially tells the FBI that he regrets not doing so. If Rat actually said something about the pressure bump, he said it to the rest of the crew, not over the air. 

That quote is Rataczak.. I just transcribed him from the video. Watch the vIdeo.

Rat also said he regretted them (the crew) not marking their location,,, NOT asking ATC to mark their radar. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by FLYJACK

[georger 197]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, do you know which planet you are on?  Now you appear to be suggesting that the money found at Tena Bar doesn't have anything to do with the hijacking.

Now you are desperate!

Edited September 9, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 466]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

That quote is Rataczak.. I just transcribed him from the video. Watch the vIdeo.

Rat also said he regretted them (the crew) not marking their location,,, NOT asking ATC to mark their radar. 

Yes I’m very much aware of what Rat CLAIMED he said, haha. 

[FLYJACK 654]

I have lots of Dan Cooper comics and studied them carefully for any Cooper connections but today another came in the mail...  a very unique Dan Cooper comic that I had recently discovered its existence... 

[JAGdb 71]

I believe this is from the teletype transcript, anyone know why someone wrote in "Portland" at the 8:05pm entry?  Did whoever wrote that in think that the plane was by Portland at that time ?

[Jay Ritchie 3]

7 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

I have lots of Dan Cooper comics and studied them carefully for any Cooper connections but today another came in the mail...  a very unique Dan Cooper comic that I had recently discovered its existence... 

Which one? I think Les Paras is overlooked as it isn't included in the main compilations (with the apparent exception of the German books).

[FLYJACK 654]

22 minutes ago, Jay Ritchie said:

Which one? I think Les Paras is overlooked as it isn't included in the main compilations (with the apparent exception of the German books).

I can't say until I have gone through it but it was one of stories published in Spanish by a Mexican publisher for Latin America..

[FLYJACK 654]

On 8/30/2023 at 12:22 PM, Chaucer said:

Soderlind told the FBI that he would expect to find "little bobs" in the FDR because the plane was on autopilot. The plane was not on autopilot, so what is the "bob" at 8:09? Also, I have never seen where Rat said he felt the plane "pitch slightly" when Cooper jumped. Can you provide a source for that? 

The phrase "took leave of us" is in the ATC transcripts after the plane landed in Reno and the crew is about to exit. It is unknown who said it, but since Scott landed the plane, it would be fair to assume it was Rataczak. Perhaps, after decades, Rat confused things. 

"OKAY SIR BE ADVISED AH THAT WE APPARENTLY AH OUR PASSENGER TOOK LEAVE OF US SOMEWHERE AH BETWEEN HERE AND SEATTLE..."

Looks like it was Scott that said it in Reno.. not Rataczak.   

 

 

 

 

Nov 26, 1971 multiple news reports...

The Pilot of the Northwest airlines Boeing 727 said he believed the Hijacker a took leave of us in the Woodland. Wash., area 25 Miles North of here (Portland) As the plane flew Low and slow from Seattle to Reno.

 

Why would the pilot claim on the 26th that Cooper jumped near Woodland if they were earlier claiming he jumped in the suburbs of Portland..  it only make sense if they were giving a range between last contact and the Soderlind call before Portland. They weren't saying Cooper jumped in the suburbs of Portland,, they were saying that was the call to Soderlind inferring he jumped before that call but after last contact at 8:05. They didn't know where Cooper jumped but they had a range based on events that were time marked.

Edited September 9, 2023 by FLYJACK