DB Cooper

[Robert99 37]

15 hours ago, olemisscub said:

Yes I’m very much aware of what Rat CLAIMED he said, haha. 

Rataczak made a similar remark a number of times.  This is just a fulfillment of my statement that non-believers would claim otherwise.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Robert99

[georger 194]

16 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Rataczak made a similia remark a number of times.  This is just a fulfillment of my statement that non-believers would claim otherwise.

Rataczak was obviously part of the CONSPIRACY - like Kentucky Fried Chicken today! The barking dog knows!

Edited September 9, 2023 by georger

[olemisscub 461]

3 hours ago, Robert99 said:

Rataczak made a similar remark a number of times.  This is just a fulfillment of my statement that non-believers would claim otherwise.

Yes I’m aware he has said it other times. But who did he allegedly say this to? ATC? Why would he have something like that to them? Read the transcripts. He never says anything to ATC other than boring routine technical stuff.

[Chaucer 102]

Jesus Christ on a cracker, it;s almost like people should listen to me on here. I have been saying that "took leave of us" has been at the Reno airport since...I dunnoo...forever....

Second, what evidence is there for an FB drop zone?

A report of an oscillation at 8:11? Followed by a sled test that also replicated an oscillation?

If  am remiss, please correct me? 

[FLYJACK 654]

33 minutes ago, Chaucer said:

Jesus Christ on a cracker, it;s almost like people should listen to me on here. I have been saying that "took leave of us" has been at the Reno airport since...I dunnoo...forever....

Second, what evidence is there for an FB drop zone?

A report of an oscillation at 8:11? Followed by a sled test that also replicated an oscillation?

If  am remiss, please correct me? 

I know, I just found evidence that it was Scott, not Rataczak in Reno.. you weren't sure.

"Take leave" is a common phrase for aircrew.. it was actually used twice in Reno.

Scott saying it in Reno has nothing to do with Rataczak saying it earlier or not.

 

[FLYJACK 654]

1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Yes I’m aware he has said it other times. But who did he allegedly say this to? ATC? Why would he have something like that to them? Read the transcripts. He never says anything to ATC other than boring routine technical stuff.

Of course he would say it to ATC because they had the radar screen..  and they do mention the stairs at times in those comms.. 

It should have been here but there are two issues,, there appears to be redactions and there is that 14 minute gap in the handoff between R2 and R5... was it actually redacted or was there a comm issue..  There was some discussion about 305 getting passed to the wrong controller.. is that the gap, is that when Rataczak said it??

I believe he said it, otherwise it is a significant lie.. for no reason,,, that isn't Rataczak, there is no motive or evidence that he would lie or did lie..  He may have replaced "radar screen" with "shrimp boat" later but the meaning is the same.

R2 asks 305 to go to 133.9.. in error.

 

[olemisscub 461]

2 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

 

I believe he said it, otherwise it is a significant lie.. for no reason,,, that isn't Rataczak, there is no motive or evidence that he would lie or did lie..  He may have replaced "radar screen" with "shrimp boat" later but the meaning is the same.

R2 asks 305 to go to 133.9.. in error.

 

I’m not saying he didn’t say it, per se, just that he probably said it to the other guys (and gal) in the cockpit…or he said it to dead air.

[Robert99 37]

2 hours ago, olemisscub said:

I’m not saying he didn’t say it, per se, just that he probably said it to the other guys (and gal) in the cockpit…or he said it to dead air.

You must know that ATC was actually running the show, not Minneapolis, and would be the ones to act on that information.  Among other things, the 305 crew had been told by ATC to do a couple of things when Cooper jumped and they didn't.

[AFOX 0]

Hello guys, I am new to forums and apologize if I don’t put things in the right place. There’s so many holes in the D.B. Story. I have more questions every time I research. I think it was an insurance scam, there never was anyone jumping off the plane. Follow the money trail.

Northwest Airlines, Inc. v. Globe Indem. Co. :: 1975 :: Minnesota Supreme Court Decisions :: Minnesota Case Law :: Minnesota Law :: US Law :: Justia
Northwest Airlines, Inc. v. Globe Indem. Co.
 

[FLYJACK 654]

New Cooper book... November.

https://www.amazon.ca/Hijacking-American-Flight-119-Skyjacking/dp/0197695752/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=9780197695753&linkCode=qs&qid=1694316530&s=books&sr=1-1

 

https://books.google.ca/books?id=uvPUEAAAQBAJ&newbks=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PA274&dq=flight+119+skyjacking&hl=en&source=newbks_fb&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=flight 119 skyjacking&f=false

[olemisscub 461]

3 hours ago, FLYJACK said:

New Cooper book... November.

https://www.amazon.ca/Hijacking-American-Flight-119-Skyjacking/dp/0197695752/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=9780197695753&linkCode=qs&qid=1694316530&s=books&sr=1-1

 

https://books.google.ca/books?id=uvPUEAAAQBAJ&newbks=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PA274&dq=flight+119+skyjacking&hl=en&source=newbks_fb&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=flight 119 skyjacking&f=false

Mac tried to order 100 copies in bulk and asked for a discounted rate and the publishing company refused, haha. 

[olemisscub 461]

3 hours ago, AFOX said:

Hello guys, I am new to forums and apologize if I don’t put things in the right place. There’s so many holes in the D.B. Story. I have more questions every time I research. I think it was an insurance scam, there never was anyone jumping off the plane. Follow the money trail.

Northwest Airlines, Inc. v. Globe Indem. Co. :: 1975 :: Minnesota Supreme Court Decisions :: Minnesota Case Law :: Minnesota Law :: US Law :: Justia
Northwest Airlines, Inc. v. Globe Indem. Co.
 

I'm unclear how any actual research on the topic could lead you or anyone to conclude that no one jumped off the plane. 

[Chaucer 102]

On 9/10/2023 at 1:10 AM, Robert99 said:

You must know that ATC was actually running the show, not Minneapolis, and would be the ones to act on that information.  Among other things, the 305 crew had been told by ATC to do a couple of things when Cooper jumped and they didn't.

This is demonstrably untrue. 

The crew was in almost constant contact with the crew. Any bump or incident on the plane would have been reported to NWA, not ATC. A casual glance at the comms would show you this. 

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

This is demonstrably untrue. 

The crew was in almost constant contact with the crew. Any bump or incident on the plane would have been reported to NWA, not ATC. A casual glance at the comms would show you this. 

Chaucer, you are mistaken.  The crew's communications through the ARINC radio patch with NWA personnel was not an air traffic control function.

The 19 areas of redactions in the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts would include the communications with ATC about the estimated jump time.  Also, as instructed by ATC, the airliner crew was supposed to do a couple of things when Cooper jumped.

As I have pointed out repeatedly over the last 14 years, if you want to know how air traffic control functioned in 1971 all you needed to do was read the Oakland ATC Center's transcripts.

And I continue to be amazed how people with no known aeronautical qualifications continue to try to pontificate about the way the air traffic control system works while at the same time refusing to educate themselves about aircraft navigation, communications, etc.. 

[olemisscub 461]

6 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

 

And I continue to be amazed how people with no known aeronautical qualifications continue to try to pontificate about the way the air traffic control system works while at the same time refusing to educate themselves about aircraft navigation, communications, etc.. 

And I continue to be amazed how a pilot like yourself somehow thinks the most watched aircraft on Earth on Nov 24, 1971 was actually 10 miles away from where every shred of evidence available places it. 

[georger 194]

38 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, you are mistaken.  The crew's communications through the ARINC radio patch with NWA personnel was not an air traffic control function.

The 19 areas of redactions in the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts would include the communications with ATC about the estimated jump time.  Also, as instructed by ATC, the airliner crew was supposed to do a couple of things when Cooper jumped.

As I have pointed out repeatedly over the last 14 years, if you want to know how air traffic control functioned in 1971 all you needed to do was read the Oakland ATC Center's transcripts.

And I continue to be amazed how people with no known aeronautical qualifications continue to try to pontificate about the way the air traffic control system works while at the same time refusing to educate themselves about aircraft navigation, communications, etc.. 

aeronautical qualifications is as aeronautical qualifications does.

I guess it takes qualifications you don't have!  

So, there is no need to keep insulting everyone!  

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by georger

[Chaucer 102]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, you are mistaken.  The crew's communications through the ARINC radio patch with NWA personnel was not an air traffic control function.

The 19 areas of redactions in the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts would include the communications with ATC about the estimated jump time.  Also, as instructed by ATC, the airliner crew was supposed to do a couple of things when Cooper jumped.

As I have pointed out repeatedly over the last 14 years, if you want to know how air traffic control functioned in 1971 all you needed to do was read the Oakland ATC Center's transcripts.

And I continue to be amazed how people with no known aeronautical qualifications continue to try to pontificate about the way the air traffic control system works while at the same time refusing to educate themselves about aircraft navigation, communications, etc.. 

Thanks, Robert. That's exactly my point. The crew would not have been discussing the ongoing emergency with ATC, but rather the company.

As I have been saying repeatedly forever, if you have proof that the "19 areas of redactions in the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts" include communication about the jump time, please provide it. Otherwise, it is speculation bordering on fantasy.

Also, the crew did not begin communicating on the ARINC phone patch until approximately 8:20. Prior to that, they were communicating on a regular NWA company frequency. I continue to be amazed how someone with all of your aeronautical qualifications continues to get his basic information wrong.

 

[georger 194]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Thanks, Robert. That's exactly my point. The crew would not have been discussing the ongoing emergency with ATC, but rather the company.

As I have been saying repeatedly forever, if you have proof that the "19 areas of redactions in the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts" include communication about the jump time, please provide it. Otherwise, it is speculation bordering on fantasy.

Also, the crew did not begin communicating on the ARINC phone patch until approximately 8:20. Prior to that, they were communicating on a regular NWA company frequency. I continue to be amazed how someone with all of your aeronautical qualifications continues to get his basic information wrong.

 

basic information wrong. ......  and/or misrepresented!   Further R99 knows exactly what he is doing so this is no accident but intentional misrepresentation.

One case in point is R99's misrepresentation of what WSHM actually said: 

Quote:  "The examination of the George Harrison ARINC printouts was made on site at WSHM on Jan. ... with a corresponding timestamp on 2013.5.15.5 [page 93 of transcript; page 5 of PDF ... there were found to be eight (8) areas of missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, ...

Missing or redacted. WSHM leaves the issue open.  R99 says WSHM confirmed REDACTED lines. WSHM does not say that at all. WSHM says "missing or redacted..."  WSHM names eight problematic lines? R99 expands this to 19 with little or no explanation!

The whole issue is pure speculation. So Dr Edwards made his own examination and could not confirm  the WSHM or Robert's claims, but when that is shown to R99, R99 simply does not comment at all. 

The fact that this has gone on and on and on for years ....  only worsens the situation to the point nothing R99 says can be taken as a true representation of anything!  

Due to the pilot's failure to keep track and notify people in a timely fashion the best estimate is: Cooper jumped and landed somewhere off the center line of V23 somewhere between Lake Merwin and Orchards (as a southern limit) but he did not land anywhere near Tena Bar as an explanation of why money was found on Tena Bar! That assertion is plain ridiculous! And if R99 has any real aeronautical credentials at all R99 knows Cooper could not have landed anywhere near Tena Bar!  That claim is crazy.  There is no direct link between the flight path and jump and money found on Tena Bar - period. Some other explanation is required.

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, Chaucer said:

Thanks, Robert. That's exactly my point. The crew would not have been discussing the ongoing emergency with ATC, but rather the company.

As I have been saying repeatedly forever, if you have proof that the "19 areas of redactions in the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts" include communication about the jump time, please provide it. Otherwise, it is speculation bordering on fantasy.

Also, the crew did not begin communicating on the ARINC phone patch until approximately 8:20. Prior to that, they were communicating on a regular NWA company frequency. I continue to be amazed how someone with all of your aeronautical qualifications continues to get his basic information wrong.

 

Chaucer, you have now joined the Georger clique in which you apparently feel free to make any misrepresentation of my comments that serves your purpose.

First, the hijacking was not an "emergency" in the sense that term is used in aviation and the flight crew never declared an emergency.  And the flight crew was talking to the Seattle ATC Center.  While airborne and some distance from Seattle, the airliner was communicating with the NWA Seattle office, and probably the Minneapolis headquarters, through the ARINC teletype network.

While the airliner was holding in the Seattle area and on the ground at SEATAC, the crew could also communicate with the NWA Seattle office through the "company frequency" and with Minneapolis if they had a direct phone patch with them.  They could also, and apparently did, communicate with NWA offices through the ARINC teletype system and a ARINC phone patch when it was made.  They could also communicate with the SEATAC tower through their VHF radios.

Chaucer, let me point out again that neither the FAA nor the FBI has denied the existence of the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts.  They have not admitted that such transcripts exist either.  But they do exist.

In 1971, in addition to a commercial pilot certificate, I also held Advanced and Instrument Ground Instructor ratings.  That is, I could sign candidates off for the written tests for Private Pilot, Commercial Pilot, and Instrument ratings.

I have seen 16-year-old kids who were fully qualified to take the written test for the Private Pilot rating.  They had to be 17 years old and have a recommendation from a flight instructor to take the flight test.

Chaucer, based on your comments on this matter, I would not sign you off as being ready to take the written test for the Private Pilot certificate.  You simply do not have the knowledge!

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, georger said:

basic information wrong. ......  and/or misrepresented!   Further R99 knows exactly what he is doing so this is no accident but intentional misrepresentation.

One case in point is R99's misrepresentation of what WSHM actually said: 

Quote:  "The examination of the George Harrison ARINC printouts was made on site at WSHM on Jan. ... with a corresponding timestamp on 2013.5.15.5 [page 93 of transcript; page 5 of PDF ... there were found to be eight (8) areas of missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, ...

Missing or redacted. WSHM leaves the issue open.  R99 says WSHM confirmed REDACTED lines. WSHM does not say that at all. WSHM says "missing or redacted..."  WSHM names eight problematic lines? R99 expands this to 19 with little or no explanation!

The whole issue is pure speculation. So Dr Edwards made his own examination and could not confirm  the WSHM or Robert's claims, but when that is shown to R99, R99 simply does not comment at all. 

The fact that this has gone on and on and on for years ....  only worsens the situation to the point nothing R99 says can be taken as a true representation of anything!  

Due to the pilot's failure to keep track and notify people in a timely fashion the best estimate is: Cooper jumped and landed somewhere off the center line of V23 somewhere between Lake Merwin and Orchards (as a southern limit) but he did not land anywhere near Tena Bar as an explanation of why money was found on Tena Bar! That assertion is plain ridiculous! And if R99 has any real aeronautical credentials at all R99 knows Cooper could not have landed anywhere near Tena Bar!  That claim is crazy.  There is no direct link between the flight path and jump and money found on Tena Bar - period. Some other explanation is required.

 

Georger, are the people with butterfly nets still chasing you?

[georger 194]

37 minutes ago, Robert99 said:

Georger, are the people with butterfly nets still chasing you?

They are at your door, Robert!  

[georger 194]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, you have now joined the Georger clique in which you apparently feel free to make any misrepresentation of my comments that serves your purpose.

First, the hijacking was not an "emergency" in the sense that term is used in aviation and the flight crew never declared an emergency.  And the flight crew was talking to the Seattle ATC Center.  While airborne and some distance from Seattle, the airliner was communicating with the NWA Seattle office, and probably the Minneapolis headquarters, through the ARINC teletype network.

While the airliner was holding in the Seattle area and on the ground at SEATAC, the crew could also communicate with the NWA Seattle office through the "company frequency" and with Minneapolis if they had a direct phone patch with them.  They could also, and apparently did, communicate with NWA offices through the ARINC teletype system and a ARINC phone patch when it was made.  They could also communicate with the SEATAC tower through their VHF radios.

Chaucer, let me point out again that neither the FAA nor the FBI has denied the existence of the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts.  They have not admitted that such transcripts exist either.  But they do exist.

In 1971, in addition to a commercial pilot certificate, I also held Advanced and Instrument Ground Instructor ratings.  That is, I could sign candidates off for the written tests for Private Pilot, Commercial Pilot, and Instrument ratings.

I have seen 16-year-old kids who were fully qualified to take the written test for the Private Pilot rating.  They had to be 17 years old and have a recommendation from a flight instructor to take the flight test.

Chaucer, based on your comments on this matter, I would not sign you off as being ready to take the written test for the Private Pilot certificate.  You simply do not have the knowledge!

Neither the FAA nor the FBI has denied the existence of fairies.

What position do you hold that you are signing people off - on anything?  I dont know but I doubt you have any such position ?   Tell us what your "position" is?   Flea counter for the Arizona Dept of Natural Resources?

How ridiculous is this going to get, Mr. Nicholson ?

Edited September 11, 2023 by georger

[Robert99 37]

1 hour ago, georger said:

Neither the FAA nor the FBI has denied the existence of fairies.

What position do you hold that you are signing people off - on anything?  I dont know but I doubt you have any such position ?   Tell us what your "position" is?   Flea counter for the Arizona Dept of Natural Resources?

How ridiculous is this going to get, Mr. Nicholson ?

Eat your heart out Georger.

[Chaucer 102]

1 hour ago, Robert99 said:

Chaucer, you have now joined the Georger clique in which you apparently feel free to make any misrepresentation of my comments that serves your purpose.

First, the hijacking was not an "emergency" in the sense that term is used in aviation and the flight crew never declared an emergency.  And the flight crew was talking to the Seattle ATC Center.  While airborne and some distance from Seattle, the airliner was communicating with the NWA Seattle office, and probably the Minneapolis headquarters, through the ARINC teletype network.

While the airliner was holding in the Seattle area and on the ground at SEATAC, the crew could also communicate with the NWA Seattle office through the "company frequency" and with Minneapolis if they had a direct phone patch with them.  They could also, and apparently did, communicate with NWA offices through the ARINC teletype system and a ARINC phone patch when it was made.  They could also communicate with the SEATAC tower through their VHF radios.

Chaucer, let me point out again that neither the FAA nor the FBI has denied the existence of the unredacted Seattle ATC radio transcripts.  They have not admitted that such transcripts exist either.  But they do exist.

In 1971, in addition to a commercial pilot certificate, I also held Advanced and Instrument Ground Instructor ratings.  That is, I could sign candidates off for the written tests for Private Pilot, Commercial Pilot, and Instrument ratings.

I have seen 16-year-old kids who were fully qualified to take the written test for the Private Pilot rating.  They had to be 17 years old and have a recommendation from a flight instructor to take the flight test.

Chaucer, based on your comments on this matter, I would not sign you off as being ready to take the written test for the Private Pilot certificate.  You simply do not have the knowledge!

Nope. You're wrong. I don't give fiddler's fart what certifications you have. You are simply and demonstrably wrong.

The crew communicated on 131.9 mHz from 3:13 until approximately 8:20. At 8:19/8:20 Soderlind reports that communications was lost on NWA company frequency 131.9 and they switched to a direct phone patch which had been set up by Seattle ARINC on 131.8 mHz. 

The teletype was done in-house by NWA and not by ARINC because NWA was one of the few airlines at the time to have their own radio network. That's why we have the teletype to begin with: NWA had immediate access to it. We don't have teletype from 8:20 on because ARINC was involved at that point.

Also, just because the FBI or FAA has neither confirmed nor denied the existence of unredacted transcripts doesn't mean they exist. They haven't confirmed or denied the existence of little green men either.

The fact of the matter is you have never provided any evidence to back up your claim of unredacted transcripts, and you never will because you do not have said evidence. It is all a figment of your imagination.

 

[Robert99 37]

5 hours ago, Chaucer said:

Nope. You're wrong. I don't give fiddler's fart what certifications you have. You are simply and demonstrably wrong.

The crew communicated on 131.9 mHz from 3:13 until approximately 8:20. At 8:19/8:20 Soderlind reports that communications was lost on NWA company frequency 131.9 and they switched to a direct phone patch which had been set up by Seattle ARINC on 131.8 mHz. 

The teletype was done in-house by NWA and not by ARINC because NWA was one of the few airlines at the time to have their own radio network. That's why we have the teletype to begin with: NWA had immediate access to it. We don't have teletype from 8:20 on because ARINC was involved at that point.

Also, just because the FBI or FAA has neither confirmed nor denied the existence of unredacted transcripts doesn't mean they exist. They haven't confirmed or denied the existence of little green men either.

The fact of the matter is you have never provided any evidence to back up your claim of unredacted transcripts, and you never will because you do not have said evidence. It is all a figment of your imagination.

 

Chaucer, the above is simply not true.

What are you talking about when you claim that NWA had their own radio network?  There is no evidence for such a claim.

All of the public teletype transcripts that are available for the hijacking are from the ARINC system.

When the airliner was handed off to the Oaklan ATC Center, the controller told the crew to contact a certain number that was an ARINC number in Sacramento if I remember correctly.  There are no ARINC transcripts available for the time the airliner was being worked by the Oakland controllers.

Chaucer, you simply have not studied the radio transcripts from the Seattle and Oakland Centers plus those from the time the airliner was on the ground at SEATAC.