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DB Cooper

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11 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

You wouldn't normally wear both a pin and a bar on a cheap tie.. one or the other.. the pin was used long term based on the significant hole. So, why use the bar at all. Maybe, he did expect to jump with it on and wanted it secured but he unintentionally left it behind. 

Once you have a hole in a tie, normally you keep using the hole and don't switch to a bar..

If the pin was identifiable he would have removed it. Or, if it was just an old tie he grabbed that he hadn't used for some time the pin may have already been removed. Logo pins have more meaning than a generic bar..

IMO, the tie (circa 1964/65) was normally worn with a pin for years, then stored for a time collecting dust before Cooper added the bar for the hijacking...

Tom said there was no regular steel on the tie and that makes it unique as most shop environments have steel.. The tie was not in a welding environment.

SS 300 and 400 and Titanium indicate a more specialized environment.

They did find stainless steel.  That is not that uncommon.  

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3 minutes ago, olemisscub said:

My guess is that he was intending to just put it in his coat pocket or something and take it with him since that's what he did with everything else. As adult men, what's the first thing we do when we take a tie off? We just throw it on the bed or on a chair or whatever. I'm supposing that he did the same thing whenever he was putting his parachute on. It's almost a reflex the way you lay a tie down on the nearest object whenever you take it off. So he took his tie off and just threw it on the seat. I think he just forgot about it. If he wasn't in a rush and was actually thinking about it, I'm sure he would have taken it off, rolled it up, and put it in his rain coat pocket or whatever. 

That is very plausible,, I have speculated that he used the tie to wipe prints. If you look at the particle distribution via UV on the tie it isn't uniform or random, it has horizontal smears in several places as if something was wiped across it. 

The particle distribution occurred via a specific process..

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9 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

They did find stainless steel.  That is not that uncommon.  

In 1965-70,, SS 300 was common, 400 much less common but add even less common titanium and lack of regular steel..

It is also what was not found that makes it unique...

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23 minutes ago, FLYJACK said:

In 1965-70,, SS 300 was common, 400 much less common but add even less common titanium and lack of regular steel..

It is also what was not found that makes it unique...

I'll have to chat with Tom again. He did say to me that they did not find steel.  The question I may ask is what is the difference between a particle and an element.  We have roughly 106,000 rows of data, are there 106,000 corresponding particles?  What element is this below, have they tied this line to a particle? Is there a particle made up of these? Does it have a name?  There are 106,000 rows of these.  If a stub has a series of elements, does it mean that makes a particle, or could there be multiple particles mixed in? Let's say Cooper wipes a few elements on his tie, then a few days later wipes some other elements on his tie, then years later one stub hits both those sets of incidents.  What do we call that? 

O 7.66702
MG 2.303652
AL 15.0484
SI 13.5198
S 1.184901
K 2.816026
CA 35.1904
FE 7.942541
AU

21.99428

Some commentary. 

Almost every major element known to man was found on that tie, so to me that doesn't rule out too many industrial activities.  

There are hardly any samples to compare these to.  I know Tom is working on a few. I've found some similar looking data just doing we searches, but it will take me a while to find more. I sent another note to McCrone to see if they will talk. Doubtful they will.

I think the tie was Cooper's or was from someone close to him or his industry.  To the point above, if he did not try to hide is appearance, then why worry about something so minor as a tie? But, he did seem to not want to give much information to Tina during the hours they chatted.  

The tie is like the money. It is one of the only pieces of hard evidence we have, so many of us continue to dig into it and try to make conclusions. If Cooper did buy the tie at a thrift store, then we've gone on a wild goose chase.  I can see how people say that ties don't end up in thrift stores. Maybe, maybe not.  But I've donated ties before.  Does someone grow out of a suit or decide it is out fashion and just donate the suit and throw away the tie?  Doubtful.

The guaranteed piece of info is that Cooper's DNA was on that tie at some point.  He touched it to put it on, touched it to take it off, his neck rubbed up against it.  The technology we have today may not be able to find his DNA and isolate it, but that technology can't be that far off.

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1 hour ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I'll have to chat with Tom again. He did say to me that they did not find steel.  The question I may ask is what is the difference between a particle and an element.  We have roughly 106,000 rows of data, are there 106,000 corresponding particles?  What element is this below, have they tied this line to a particle? Is there a particle made up of these? Does it have a name?  There are 106,000 rows of these.  If a stub has a series of elements, does it mean that makes a particle, or could there be multiple particles mixed in? Let's say Cooper wipes a few elements on his tie, then a few days later wipes some other elements on his tie, then years later one stub hits both those sets of incidents.  What do we call that? 

O 7.66702
MG 2.303652
AL 15.0484
SI 13.5198
S 1.184901
K 2.816026
CA 35.1904
FE 7.942541
AU

21.99428

Some commentary. 

Almost every major element known to man was found on that tie, so to me that doesn't rule out too many industrial activities.  

There are hardly any samples to compare these to.  I know Tom is working on a few. I've found some similar looking data just doing we searches, but it will take me a while to find more. I sent another note to McCrone to see if they will talk. Doubtful they will.

I think the tie was Cooper's or was from someone close to him or his industry.  To the point above, if he did not try to hide is appearance, then why worry about something so minor as a tie? But, he did seem to not want to give much information to Tina during the hours they chatted.  

The tie is like the money. It is one of the only pieces of hard evidence we have, so many of us continue to dig into it and try to make conclusions. If Cooper did buy the tie at a thrift store, then we've gone on a wild goose chase.  I can see how people say that ties don't end up in thrift stores. Maybe, maybe not.  But I've donated ties before.  Does someone grow out of a suit or decide it is out fashion and just donate the suit and throw away the tie?  Doubtful.

The guaranteed piece of info is that Cooper's DNA was on that tie at some point.  He touched it to put it on, touched it to take it off, his neck rubbed up against it.  The technology we have today may not be able to find his DNA and isolate it, but that technology can't be that far off.

Those are not necessarily alloys.. I think of those more like dust particles, not pieces. Many are probably everywhere.

Tom found pieces of SS and Titanium..  but no steel.

But, some particles may have come from the plane.. Two sources.. the bulkhead door was open and the third engine was right there... exhaust particles entering cabin.... 

Abegglen et al. applied single particle mass spectrometry to investigate metal content and sources in emissions from different jet engines at various combustion conditions, and Mo, Ca, Na, Fe, Cu, Ba, Cr, Al, Si, Mg, Co, Mn, V, Ni, Pb, Ti and Zr were found to be significant frequently occurring metals.

Also, the 727 used a bleed air system of for the cabin... so the cabin would get contaminated with exhaust particles...  the 727 exhaust is full of exotic particles..

 

Edited by FLYJACK

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I saw on the Cooper Forum some discussion about the aft stairs.  It got me thinking. There has been some discussion on whether Cooper said to have the stairs lowered in flight or lowered for takeoff.  But what I don't remember anyone talking about is whether Cooper said to "lock" the stairs.  A plane taking off with stairs lowered could be very different than taking off with the stairs locked.

My opinion is that Cooper learned about the 727 but was not on the secret flights in Vietnam nor was he a top secret engineer during the test phase.

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5 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I saw on the Cooper Forum some discussion about the aft stairs.  It got me thinking. There has been some discussion on whether Cooper said to have the stairs lowered in flight or lowered for takeoff.  But what I don't remember anyone talking about is whether Cooper said to "lock" the stairs.  A plane taking off with stairs lowered could be very different than taking off with the stairs locked.

My opinion is that Cooper learned about the 727 but was not on the secret flights in Vietnam nor was he a top secret engineer during the test phase.

Cooper also brainfarted and thought a 727 could act like a C-130 because he told Tina that the pilots could lower the stairs from the cockpit once they were airborne. C-130's could drop their rear hatch from the cockpit but obviously 727's could not. 

Throw in the fact that he had to be shown how to actually lower the stairs  and that tells me that he had an intellectual knowledge of aircraft but not a practical knowledge of them. 

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1 minute ago, Slim King said:

He's wearing sunglasses. Seems to have thrown you off the trail for 50 years. Pretty effective.

He wasn't wearing them in the airport nor when he boarded the plane. Also, according to Schaffner's testimony, he wasn't wearing them the whole time when they were on the ground in Seattle. It sounds like he took them off for a while once the passengers left. Schaffner makes reference to him putting the sunglasses (back) on during her conversation with Cooper when she was asking if she could leave the plane. 

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10 minutes ago, CooperNWO305 said:

I saw on the Cooper Forum some discussion about the aft stairs.  It got me thinking. There has been some discussion on whether Cooper said to have the stairs lowered in flight or lowered for takeoff.  But what I don't remember anyone talking about is whether Cooper said to "lock" the stairs.  A plane taking off with stairs lowered could be very different than taking off with the stairs locked.

My opinion is that Cooper learned about the 727 but was not on the secret flights in Vietnam nor was he a top secret engineer during the test phase.

Cooper's initial demand was stairs lowered in flight..

When the range and Reno refuel was being negotiated Cooper still wanted a stew to operate the stairs... it was the crew that suggested locking the stairs partially open for take off to get Tina off the plane,, but that was impossible.

Cooper never asked for stairs locked. He thought the cockpit crew locked the stairs.

IMO, the stairs lowered for takeoff was first suggested by the crew,, Cooper accepted but still wanted the stew to stay,, The crew then had to convince him to takeoff with stairs up.

Cooper knew about aviation but not the 727 air stairs specifically..

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2 minutes ago, Slim King said:

IMHO Coopers handler had told him about the stairs but Cooper wanted to jump out the side door. I agree he had no practical knowledge about them. After his conversation with Tina he decided on the stairs. He made the correct choice.

Lunacy...

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1 hour ago, olemisscub said:

Cooper also brainfarted and thought a 727 could act like a C-130 because he told Tina that the pilots could lower the stairs from the cockpit once they were airborne. C-130's could drop their rear hatch from the cockpit but obviously 727's could not. 

Throw in the fact that he had to be shown how to actually lower the stairs  and that tells me that he had an intellectual knowledge of aircraft but not a practical knowledge of them. 

Could there have been a special modified 727 made for the CIA that had the capability to open/close from the cockpit ?  Maybe for HALO drops ?

Edited by JAGdb

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10 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Could there have been a special modified 727 made for the CIA that had the capability to open/close from the cockpit ?  Maybe for HALO drops ?

Yes.  If the stairs were going to be routinely opened in flight, then there would probably be a control in the cockpit to do so and Cooper may have had knowledge of that.

The hijacking may have been the first time that Cooper had seen the aft stair controls on a commercial 727 airliner. 

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12 minutes ago, JAGdb said:

Could there have been a special modified 727 made for the CIA that had the capability to open/close from the cockpit ?  Maybe for HALO drops ?

I highly doubt that. There wouldn’t be any need to go to that much effort. You’d just have an Air Force crewman back there to lower and raise the rear stairs. 

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2 hours ago, CooperNWO305 said:

Can we get the moderators to treat Slim King the same way as they did Blevins? This is becoming a spam issue.

I doubt it. He is clearly pushing a narrative that we all know is bullshit, and Blevins did the same thing as well. But that's not what got Blevins banished. Just have to live with it, or everyone can use the ignore feature.

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1 hour ago, Slim King said:

 

All Truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, Then it is violently opposed, Finally it is accepted as self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

In an age of universal deceit, telling the Truth is a revolutionary act. Whoever controls the past, controls the future. George Orwell

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the Truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back. Carl Sagan

It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled. Mark Twain

Why do you run from the Truth when you aren't being chased? Slim King

Now back to the stairs. I've only found 5 instances of these stairs being used while in flight. Does anyone else have any documentation of more than that? 
 

"If you don't understand it fully, don't speak on it. Too many people have full opinions, with half the facts"  - Gaskins

Edited by ParrotheadVol

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1 hour ago, Slim King said:

So you have proof that this was done more than 5 times?

Cooper

McCoy

McNally

LaPoint

Hahneman

Heady

- The sled tests in January 72

- Boeing did multiple tests with the stairs down in 1963 and 1964

- Air America did it many times in SE Asia (sometimes stairs were removed, sometimes not) in the late 60's and early 70's

- The last American plane out of Da Nang in 1975 was a 727 and it took off with the aft stairs down and about six people clinging onto it. They fell to their deaths eventually. There is a YouTube video of this from inside the plane. 

- When filming "Pursuit of D.B. Cooper" they filmed at least one or two jumps from the aft stairs.

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Ulis did a video and he screws up the "negotiable American Currency" argument..

Ulis argued that anybody could say uncirculated or negotiable and it does not indicate a Canadian...

Of course that is true but he doesn't understand the actual argument is based on the use of the qualifier "American" and "US".

The pilots said "American currency" and Tina said Cooper later told her "US Currency"..  the argument has nothing to with "uncirculated" or "negotiable"..

The real argument..

A person who was always in the US and only ever dealt with US money would not qualify the ransom money with "American" and "US".. they would just say currency or money. Imagine somebody who has never left the US going into a bank and asking for American or US money.. It doesn't make sense, there is no reason to qualify the money.

Since Cooper used the qualifier "American" and" US" for the currency that strongly suggests he had spent time outside the US recently... He could be a foreigner or an American who spent a lot of time outside the US.

Basically, Cooper had an international aspect to his life...

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2 hours ago, Slim King said:

Thanks for this information .. I was referring to Air America. That is where the control agent for Cooper got the information on the stairs and the use of the name Dan Cooper. Cooper had used the name Dan Copper when filling out a tag it seems he didn't need, and he feared that he messed up not following the plan correctly and misspelling the name.

So, this eliminated Reca... he knew nothing about the airstairs, didn't know 305 was a 727 and wanted to jump out the side door.

check mate

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17 minutes ago, Slim King said:

Of course Peca knew it was a 727. He even asked before he got on. He did plan on jumping out the side door and possibly the back as his handler had suggested, in the meantime, Tina convinced him it was better going out the back and he agreed. Pretty simple really.

Peca?   Did Peca ride a horse to the airport? What happened to the horse ?

Edited by georger

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10 hours ago, Slim King said:

Of course Peca knew it was a 727. He even asked before he got on. He did plan on jumping out the side door and possibly the back as his handler had suggested, in the meantime, Tina convinced him it was better going out the back and he agreed. Pretty simple really.

That is not what he said,,

check mate

Not only do you have the NORJAK case facts wrong, you have the Reca narrative wrong and conflicting..

Reca was not Cooper, it is scam... 

 

 

Incomplete list of Walter Reca flaws..

Carl said he took map and drew a perfect arc from Cooper's jump to Cle Elum, this is false it isn't even close.

claims he asked for used $20’s,,,  Cooper never gave a denomination

claims he didn’t get all used bills,,, Cooper got all used/circulated bills

claims he drank scotch and water,,, Cooper drank  Bourbon and 7up

claims he didn’t pick a 727 and wanted to jump out the side door,,, never happened

claims the flight path went East to Cle Elum,,, never happened flight path went South to Portland then Red Bluff and over to Reno.

claims communicated only through stew,,,  Cooper did talk to cockpit through interphone

claims scribbled on napkin,,, never any evidence of this

claims he didn’t know the 727 had a rear door,,, Cooper and passengers entered the plane via the rear door

claims wearing penny loafers,,, that was a media error, the shoes were described by stew as ankle high and laceless

Does not recall when he ordered plane to Mexico.

Does not recall how long plane was on ground in Seattle.

Told them going to Reno,, never happened, Reno was later suggested by crew.

claims he asked for stall speed to keep plane slow for jump,,, never happened.

Edited by FLYJACK

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