DB Cooper

[mrshutter45 21]

"Robert99 made a reference back there about how 'people are soon going to be up to their knees in (something) which probably means BS"

"This is getting old, kind of like Skyjack71's promises of Big Revelations."

You didn't really have to come out and say it though did ya? what does the term BS in your comment apply to?

as I told you before. take care of your own problems before you go assuming anything else. try that out for starters.


when you rush things you end up with constantly changing things like books, websites etc. Reality Hotel thingy

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[skyjack71 0]

You accused me of being a liar!
YOU have been here in this thread HOW many DAYS?

After you have been here for 10 yrs - shall we go back and see HOW your story evolves. Facts do evolve with discovery and investigation.

My simple litte experiment with magnets and the watch was completely out of curiousity.

Something had bugged me for a LONG time. The brief glich I learned about in WA in 2010 with the grid...and vaguely remember it mentioned in 2001.

The authorities down-played the glich and it was dismissed as soon as it was known...but, the rumor continued.

You know that old saying
"WHAT IF?" Well, enquiring minds will do what is necessary to give it more than a fleeting thought and/or to base something on an unknown.

I REALLY am a DUMB BROAD. Mostly because I am very naive, but an honor student. My co-ordination caused me to be made fun of in Gym. I was always in the kitchen Cooking and made the plans for all the others to have a good time.....my first husband was an avid football & baseball player.

There are many ways a wife can participate without sitting thru hours of something that bores her. Do something else that allows others to enjoy the activity.

YOU STATED:

Quote

It turns out that the things you say Duane told you are word for word copied from some other website.

Let me assure you there is little out there I have NOT explored, but in a long lengthy post above I have explained all of that. I WAS telling things to the FBI and to Mr. H prior to any of that being made available to me....all I had until 2000 was a PHONE in my hand and a few things a friend provided to me. I did use the office computer to visit some sites a friend informed me about.

I was waiting for the FBI.When they MIS-INFORMED me on information already obtained by another souce - BANG! I let go! I realized in 2001 that the information I THOUGHT they were researching they were NOT and had ceased further investigation as early as 1998.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Robert99 37]

RobertMBlevins

This research claims that the FBI, NWA, ATC, and other entities may have got it wrong on the flight path of the hijacked aircraft. And...that Cooper may have actually jumped miles west of the interstate, which has never been claimed previously.

Blevins, here is a rule from Logic 101:

If you cannot find Cooper in the area where he ABSOLUTELY HAS TO BE, in your opinion, then it is time to start looking for him in the area where he ABSOLUTELY CANNOT BE, in your opinion.

I forget the details but, if I remember correctly, some wise man once remarked about the mentality of an individual who keeps hitting his head against a wall while expecting a different outcome from the next bang. Do you know the source of that saying?

Robert99

[mrshutter45 21]

Robert99

***

This research claims that the FBI, NWA, ATC, and other entities may have got it wrong on the flight path of the hijacked aircraft. And...that Cooper may have actually jumped miles west of the interstate, which has never been claimed previously.

Blevins, here is a rule from Logic 101:

If you cannot find Cooper in the area where he ABSOLUTELY HAS TO BE, in your opinion, then it is time to start looking for him in the area where he ABSOLUTELY CANNOT BE, in your opinion.

I forget the details but, if I remember correctly, some wise man once remarked about the mentality of an individual who keeps hitting his head against a wall while expecting a different outcome from the next bang. Do you know the source of that saying?

Robert99


If you look at this photo provided you can clearly see the area's they searched. for someone to know exactly where he jumped, they sure did spread out! the last time I checked the FBI has never said where he jumped, I believe they stick to the line of....."this is where we think he jumped"

also take note of the position of the flight path, if that is what it is on search area 1 & 3???

In this video Agent Carr specifically says "the believed flight path was" admitting it could be wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwI7ITDoeS8

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[skyjack71 0]

mrshutter45

If you look at this photo provided you can clearly see the area's they searched. for someone to know exactly where he jumped, they sure did spread out! the last time I checked the FBI has never said where he jumped, I believe they stick to the line of....."this is where we think he jumped"

also take note of the position of the flight path, if that is what it is on search area 1 & 3???

Did you take a map and try to outline the area they were searching?I did and it is all withing the perimenter Duane took me and showed me.

Not the South Easterly line of the search and how it angles over. THERE are things the FBI has never made public. Who would have thought that 42 yrs later some one could take an OLD search map being used in the field and modern technology would allow the introduction of new stuff.

WOW! You usually post some really good STUFF! I had NEVER seen that photo!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[mrshutter45 21]

that is there markings of the search area jo. I only added the words Lake Merwin and an arrow pointing.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

"It's things like this that make the Tina Bar money find so baffling."

Robert, it might not be that baffling if the path is not how they have plotted it. I'm not saying anything is correct until I have more information or proof. I have trust in people here that you do not. I'm not an engineer, I'm not a writer (we all know that one) I put trust in the backgrounds of certain individuals on this thread. what they do outside of this thread is not my concern. (insert your filthy comment plug)


you have to look at certain points in this case. lots of troubled area's that need attention. the flight path is one. we have the FBI on record confirming this. I can't prove where the plane was, nor can I agree that it flew over Tina Bar. not until I see more evidence. by pouncing on someone trying to prove something is uncalled for and shows how narrow minded you really are. this is something that doesn't happen over nite. most of us like to check all the angles and look for flaws before presenting something. you should try it?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[georger 197]

RobertMBlevins

******"This is getting old, kind of like Skyjack71's promises of Big Revelations."

what's really getting old is the fact of you not understanding things take time. that's what's getting old. would you like people to rush you during your half ass research on Kenny? it's only happened because of all the error's you did by not taking the time to check and validate!!

most people don't work like you do by taking the word of other people and adding all sorts of things to it. now, since it's taking Robert99 time to put things together you want to call it BS? you have no clue what you are talking about other than what you read, then you want to put your expert opinion in on it. that's fine, but you can't back up what your talking about simply by a copy/paste of what someone else said. that hardly makes it true.

Mr. Blevins has nothing to offer in the DB Cooper case, and is
an attention seeker, an jealous intimidator, and a troll. He should
be completely ignored.

Yes, you should ignore me and discuss Cooper issues instead. On that we agree.

I didn't say that Robert99's research or possible conclusions regarding the flight path are necessarily BS. I said...he keeps making promises and hinting this or that about this research...but has so far presented nothing substantial. This research is not the same as saying Kenny Christiansen and Bernie Geestman went missing for the week of the hijacking. This research claims that the FBI, NWA, ATC, and other entities may have got it wrong on the flight path of the hijacked aircraft. And...that Cooper may have actually jumped miles west of the interstate, which has never been claimed previously.

To me, this is a fairly major event, and you would need convincing proof that such an event (they got it wrong) actually occurred.

We have different definitions of 'troll'. One of mine would be people who present one way in public, and another entirely when they think no one's looking...

But sometimes people ARE looking.

EDIT: Go Seahawks! I almost forgot that.

I look outside my window this morning and see that it is raining hard, the wind is fierce and blustery for today's game against the Saints.

Perfect.

Mr. Blevins has nothing to offer in the DB Cooper case, and is
an attention seeker, an jealous intimidator, and a troll. He should
be completely ignored.

And, and ... his post above citing/claiming FALSE FACTS which
long ago were proved to be 100% FALSE FACTS - is proof again
why:

Mr. Blevins has nothing to offer in the DB Cooper
case, and is an attention seeker, an jealous intimidator,
and a troll. He should be completely ignored.

Blevins doesn't give a damn about FACTS of any kind! Now or
ever....

THAT IS WHY HE IS HERE!

[Amazon 7]

HOLY FUCK... you need a whole truckload of tissues....

[smokin99 0]

Maybe, for once, we could just hypothesize and discuss without someone having to be the winner. I'd kind of like to try to understand something before I try to challenge it.

Here are some thoughts and questions on the issue of the flight path - some have been brought up before by others...... and some questions for R99 or whoever else wants to discuss..

1. This is just my personal opinion based on stuff I've read, but I don't think the FBI had anything to do with coming up with the flight path or the dropzone. Why would they - it's not their area of expertise?..

2. We don't know if the one we are referring to is the true flight path that NW/FAA gave the FBI. Is this the final product or draft 1, 2, or 3? There are other plotted areas (red x) on there, so that in itself is confusing.
Additionally if I understand correctly, there are points on it that don't jive with the times that we do know (assuming moderately constant speeds), but could that be because we don't have enough data points to verify the flight path -- versus that the path is essentially non-flyable (as written in the time period specified)?

3. The document laying out the basis for the presumed jump zone/search area is full of words like probable and assume and plus/minus communication tolerances of 1 min and plus/minus .5 on the radar -- so there's that. (Though they include the outermost limits in the jumpzone, the immediate search area was based on assumptions that did not include the possible deviations.)

4. I understand the need for something tangible, but to include the placard as a reference point, you have to presume that the placard was found where it fell.

5. If those red marks do mean anything and the flight path and drop point is to the west -- I'm no expert on wind drift or flight paths or drop zones -- but it looks to me that the money could end up at Tena Bar without human intervention and not necessarily require a direct overfly of Tena bar.

6. Even allowing for a different size grid, it doesn't appear that the plane's path on the flight path document correlates with the ground track C-D-E-S line on the dropzone map. So there's that. (As in....who you gonna trust)

So now question time for those who do not trust the flight path as we know it....

Is there any other basis for not going with the flight path other than the times not matching up with the data and the belief that they would not have flown over Vancouver/Portland?

If you would go around Vancouver/Portland, why would one assume that they would go west and not east when their destination was in an easterly direction? Is it related to the altitude that they had to maintain?

What about flights into and out of PDX while 305 was in that area - I can't remember the status of that?

Thanks

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

"1. This is just my personal opinion based on stuff I've read, but I don't think the FBI had anything to do with coming up with the flight path or the dropzone. Why would they - it's not their area of expertise?."

I agree with this. I only state that the FBI concludes they think they know where he jumped based on the information given to them. I'm sure there was a lot of talking going on once the first sign of the stairs being messed with. (not just after take off)

when you read the transcripts there is to much silence in the area of question.

I have flown the path on my simulator up to the Merwin lake area. it can be done in the time frame they have plotted. this can only confirm the path can be flown in the time frame they have it in. this doesn't mean it's was done on in area they have it plotted. this is at a speed average of about 165-170 KIAS, with a ground speed of around 185-195. watching the video again of Carr saying it's the believed path only makes matters worse in my opinion.

has anyone flown a 727 before that is on this thread? I have spoken to Robert99 about this. I'm having trouble gaining speed once I take off due to the flaps at 15 and the gear down. I can't get the plane to go any faster in this position. this is the difference I noticed going from Microsoft to X-Plane. I also wonder if the put the gear up while they were taking off. the transcripts read shortly after take off that they were slowing down to about 160, then mention gear down and flaps at 15. then a short time later they switch to 30 degree's flaps until later down the path they switch and remain at 15 degree flaps.

sorry, forgot to mention that the speed hits about 175 on a 5 degree pitch. the only way I can get more speed is to retract the flaps and gear while climbing?

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[smokin99 0]

RobertMBlevins

***Maybe, for once, we could just hypothesize and discuss without someone having to be the winner. I'd kind of like to try to understand something before I try to challenge it.

Here are some thoughts and questions on the issue of the flight path - some have been brought up before by others...... and some questions for R99 or whoever else wants to discuss..

1. This is just my personal opinion based on stuff I've read, but I don't think the FBI had anything to do with coming up with the flight path or the dropzone. Why would they - it's not their area of expertise?..

2. We don't know if the one we are referring to is the true flight path that NW/FAA gave the FBI. Is this the final product or draft 1, 2, or 3? There are other plotted areas (red x) on there, so that in itself is confusing.
Additionally if I understand correctly, there are points on it that don't jive with the times that we do know (assuming moderately constant speeds), but could that be because we don't have enough data points to verify the flight path -- versus that the path is essentially non-flyable (as written in the time period specified)?

3. The document laying out the basis for the presumed jump zone/search area is full of words like probable and assume and plus/minus communication tolerances of 1 min and plus/minus .5 on the radar -- so there's that. (Though they include the outermost limits in the jumpzone, the immediate search area was based on assumptions that did not include the possible deviations.)

4. I understand the need for something tangible, but to include the placard as a reference point, you have to presume that the placard was found where it fell.

5. If those red marks do mean anything and the flight path and drop point is to the west -- I'm no expert on wind drift or flight paths or drop zones -- but it looks to me that the money could end up at Tena Bar without human intervention and not necessarily require a direct overfly of Tena bar.

6. Even allowing for a different size grid, it doesn't appear that the plane's path on the flight path document correlates with the ground track C-D-E-S line on the dropzone map. So there's that. (As in....who you gonna trust)

So now question time for those who do not trust the flight path as we know it....

Is there any other basis for not going with the flight path other than the times not matching up with the data and the belief that they would not have flown over Vancouver/Portland?

If you would go around Vancouver/Portland, why would one assume that they would go west and not east when their destination was in an easterly direction? Is it related to the altitude that they had to maintain?

What about flights into and out of PDX while 305 was in that area - I can't remember the status of that?

Thanks

First, I have to congratulate the Seattle Seahawks for winning their NFC Divisional playoff game against the New Orleans Saints. You have to give it to the Saints for spirit, though. They never gave up, they kept trying until the last minute. I give them kudos on this, since Seattle is a tough venue.

Your questions are legitimate, Smokin' 99. There IS a question on the flight path, and Cooper's actual DZ as well. I personally believe a great deal of that DZ is based on the point where 305's flight engineer saw the indicator light for the airstairs flash off, and then on again for good during the flight to Reno. That exact moment is in dispute, and can probably only be narrowed to a window of a couple of minutes.

One person I trust in this whole thing is Paul Soderlind and his team at NWA. Soderlind was no dummy, and remember that NWA had some amount of time to prepare, to set up, while 305 was on the ground in Seattle. We're talking 1971 technology here, and a situation coming on Thanksgiving Eve that no one expected. I think everyone did the best they could, and if anyone with NWA went on the record they did the same thing.

Sometimes things really ARE as simple as they appear. No body, no briefcase, no parachutes, no money except miles from V23, and that includes MORE than one bundle of the cash. This lessens the odds that it arrived there naturally.

Before any of these questions can be settled, the Seattle FBI (in my humble opinion) should establish the parameters on why they believe the 'official' flight path is correct, whatever it is.

But really, that logic could just as easily go towards him landing at the bottom of a body of water or in a tangle of thickets to be eaten by bears. Same goes for the money - it could have started out all together and then scattered by the elements. Or maybe we don't really know the real story of how it was found.

I'm really just wanting to discuss reasons the flight path is not reasonable. I believe there has been too much time and too many people on the case for the FBI to know now where anything came from. At the time this all started I'm sure they never dreamed it would remain unsolved so I doubt they took critical notes and such.

As to the dropzone, it was not based on one element of the flight. It was based on analysis of the radar and the recorded communication relative to the pressure fluctuation, the time correlation from the radar and recorded info, wind information, free-fall trajectories, airplane speed and altitude. And they gave themselves easement on either side for time and position.
But, again, all of this is ultimately dependent on a good flight path.
And so my same concerns - the path on the dropzone looks different than the one on the flightpath document. So which one do you go with?
But I doubt seriously at this point that the FBI would know how to resolve that without the radar data - which, I believe, their spokesperson has said in the past that they don't have.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

"And so my same concerns - the path on the dropzone looks different than the one on the flightpath document. So which one do you go with?"

I have to disagree with the two maps not lining up. to date I believe we are looking at two different maps in two different scales. when I first looked at the two, I thought the same thing. when you scale them up they seem to match up. the original FBI drop map is zoomed in much closer than the scale of the flight path map itself. I could be wrong, but it seems to match pretty good.

the 8:10 location seems to line up pretty good to the M location on the original drop map.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[mrshutter45 21]

you have several good reference points on both maps. to the left is a slanted white line on the drop map. that is V23. running almost horizontal just above the lewis river is power lines. (other white line) these are visible on both maps as well as a Vector map. you can notice certain terrain marks as well to get a good point to mark for a Long/Lat cord.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[smokin99 0]

mrshutter45

"And so my same concerns - the path on the dropzone looks different than the one on the flightpath document. So which one do you go with?"

I have to disagree with the two maps not lining up. to date I believe we are looking at two different maps in two different scales. when I first looked at the two, I thought the same thing. when you scale them up they seem to match up. the original FBI drop map is zoomed in much closer than the scale of the flight path map itself. I could be wrong, but it seems to match pretty good.

the 8:10 location seems to line up pretty good to the M location on the original drop map.

You might be right - I could not get a great resolution and couldn't find a magnifying glass.

And though the two flight paths might be the same - I haven't checked that closely yet - but I was not looking at the one with the pins. I was looking at this one below in comparison with the LINE c-d-e-s on jumpzone attached.
But I didn't try to overlay them. I was going off of a couple of landmarks and measurements, and the resolution is not so great so I could be wrong. It happens occasionally.
http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/FBI%20Flight%20Path%20PDX.jpg

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[mrshutter45 21]

smokin99

***"And so my same concerns - the path on the dropzone looks different than the one on the flightpath document. So which one do you go with?"

I have to disagree with the two maps not lining up. to date I believe we are looking at two different maps in two different scales. when I first looked at the two, I thought the same thing. when you scale them up they seem to match up. the original FBI drop map is zoomed in much closer than the scale of the flight path map itself. I could be wrong, but it seems to match pretty good.

the 8:10 location seems to line up pretty good to the M location on the original drop map.

You might be right - I could not get a great resolution and couldn't find a magnifying glass.

And though the two flight paths might be the same - I haven't checked that closely yet - but I was not looking at the one with the pins. I was looking at this one below in comparison with the LINE c-d-e-s on jumpzone attached.
But I didn't try to overlay them. I was going off of a couple of landmarks and measurements, and the resolution is not so great so I could be wrong. It happens occasionally.
http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/FBI%20Flight%20Path%20PDX.jpg


it seems to match pretty good with all the maps. I made a few changes on the map that might help zero in.

running along side the river is a black line. this is a road. there is some difference between the two maps, one is a terrain map while the other is a Vector map for navigation, not on roads lol.

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[skyjack71 0]

mrshutter45

that is there markings of the search area jo. I only added the words Lake Merwin and an arrow pointing.

I know but, the outlines and sections they had on that map - never have I seen that. This is an amazing photo and it is for real. Gives credence to the areas as outlined not being given to the public. I have known what their statement was - but that picture give credence to the statements made regarding the search areas.

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[mrshutter45 21]

skyjack71

***that is there markings of the search area jo. I only added the words Lake Merwin and an arrow pointing.

I know but, the outlines and sections they had on that map - never have I seen that. This is an amazing photo and it is for real. Gives credence to the areas as outlined not being given to the public. I have known what their statement was - but that picture give credence to the statements made regarding the search areas.


well here is another one for ya. different angle

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

[smokin99 0]

mrshutter45

******"And so my same concerns - the path on the dropzone looks different than the one on the flightpath document. So which one do you go with?"

I have to disagree with the two maps not lining up. to date I believe we are looking at two different maps in two different scales. when I first looked at the two, I thought the same thing. when you scale them up they seem to match up. the original FBI drop map is zoomed in much closer than the scale of the flight path map itself. I could be wrong, but it seems to match pretty good.

the 8:10 location seems to line up pretty good to the M location on the original drop map.

You might be right - I could not get a great resolution and couldn't find a magnifying glass.

And though the two flight paths might be the same - I haven't checked that closely yet - but I was not looking at the one with the pins. I was looking at this one below in comparison with the LINE c-d-e-s on jumpzone attached.
But I didn't try to overlay them. I was going off of a couple of landmarks and measurements, and the resolution is not so great so I could be wrong. It happens occasionally.
http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/FBI%20Flight%20Path%20PDX.jpg


it seems to match pretty good with all the maps. I made a few changes on the map that might help zero in.

running along side the river is a black line. this is a road. there is some difference between the two maps, one is a terrain map while the other is a Vector map for navigation, not on roads lol.

Yeah, I saw right away once I looked at the higher def color map that one landmark I was relying on was incorrect. I misread the name. Dang... But I still refuse to go higher than 2.75 on the readers.
I'm going to see if I can find a map I can rescale. I want to be able to play with them without having to squint.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[skyjack71 0]

I was just contact by WA and this was a relay for a question I asked and then relayed to a second party - who was trying to answer what she assumed was the question.

The conversation about the Microwave communications between the Dams:

The Dams used the microwave to talk to EACH other and to the workers at the dams and up RIVER (so what is Up River) This was a part I did NOT grasp and was coming from a second party with a relay.

THese Communications are criticial to the releasing of the power for the grids....

The communications between towers and upstream (what-ever up stream mean in WA) - seems like everything is the opposite of what is the norm.
Such as the Lewis flowing North.

There was a glitch in the communications between these microwaves as the plane went over.

The workers did NOT have land lines and stayed in-touch by microwave. These communications are critical for the operation of the damns.

NOW, that is all I know. The third party communicating the information may not have understood the question...

What was assured is that the CONVERSATION did happen and it concerned the Dams and Microwave communications and a Glitch.

Hopefully I will be able to speak with the 3rd party in a few day, but perhaps someone out there will be able to make some sense out of this .

AT LEAST I know I am not CRAZY and hearing things! Nor am I delusion or making anything up.
Just stuff I did NOT understand or grasp the meaning of.

OKAY you microwave guys - what is she talking about?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[377 21]

Jo may not be so far off base about microwave gear being used for voice comms as well as power distribution control data in hydroelectric dams.

Quote

The network is primarily based on digital technology where the communications assets form a physical infrastructure upon which the Snowy Hydro's operational and corporate Communications users can have access to various communications networks to meet voice and data communications needs.

From here: http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/hsc/snowy/telecommunications.htm

I still believe this type of system would have been of absolutely no use to Cooper.

377

2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

[georger 197]

Amazon

HOLY FUCK... you need a whole truckload of tissues....

Victims of Cooperland unite!

[smokin99 0]

mrshutter45

******"And so my same concerns - the path on the dropzone looks different than the one on the flightpath document. So which one do you go with?"

I have to disagree with the two maps not lining up. to date I believe we are looking at two different maps in two different scales. when I first looked at the two, I thought the same thing. when you scale them up they seem to match up. the original FBI drop map is zoomed in much closer than the scale of the flight path map itself. I could be wrong, but it seems to match pretty good.

the 8:10 location seems to line up pretty good to the M location on the original drop map.

You might be right - I could not get a great resolution and couldn't find a magnifying glass.

And though the two flight paths might be the same - I haven't checked that closely yet - but I was not looking at the one with the pins. I was looking at this one below in comparison with the LINE c-d-e-s on jumpzone attached.
But I didn't try to overlay them. I was going off of a couple of landmarks and measurements, and the resolution is not so great so I could be wrong. It happens occasionally.
http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/FBI%20Flight%20Path%20PDX.jpg


it seems to match pretty good with all the maps. I made a few changes on the map that might help zero in.

running along side the river is a black line. this is a road. there is some difference between the two maps, one is a terrain map while the other is a Vector map for navigation, not on roads lol.

Nah, not so much. Those could be random lines for all I can tell. I'll stick with the color high res one. But thanks anyway.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[georger 197]

RobertMBlevins

***Maybe, for once, we could just hypothesize and discuss without someone having to be the winner. I'd kind of like to try to understand something before I try to challenge it.

Here are some thoughts and questions on the issue of the flight path - some have been brought up before by others...... and some questions for R99 or whoever else wants to discuss..

1. This is just my personal opinion based on stuff I've read, but I don't think the FBI had anything to do with coming up with the flight path or the dropzone. Why would they - it's not their area of expertise?..

2. We don't know if the one we are referring to is the true flight path that NW/FAA gave the FBI. Is this the final product or draft 1, 2, or 3? There are other plotted areas (red x) on there, so that in itself is confusing.
Additionally if I understand correctly, there are points on it that don't jive with the times that we do know (assuming moderately constant speeds), but could that be because we don't have enough data points to verify the flight path -- versus that the path is essentially non-flyable (as written in the time period specified)?

3. The document laying out the basis for the presumed jump zone/search area is full of words like probable and assume and plus/minus communication tolerances of 1 min and plus/minus .5 on the radar -- so there's that. (Though they include the outermost limits in the jumpzone, the immediate search area was based on assumptions that did not include the possible deviations.)

4. I understand the need for something tangible, but to include the placard as a reference point, you have to presume that the placard was found where it fell.

5. If those red marks do mean anything and the flight path and drop point is to the west -- I'm no expert on wind drift or flight paths or drop zones -- but it looks to me that the money could end up at Tena Bar without human intervention and not necessarily require a direct overfly of Tena bar.

6. Even allowing for a different size grid, it doesn't appear that the plane's path on the flight path document correlates with the ground track C-D-E-S line on the dropzone map. So there's that. (As in....who you gonna trust)

So now question time for those who do not trust the flight path as we know it....

Is there any other basis for not going with the flight path other than the times not matching up with the data and the belief that they would not have flown over Vancouver/Portland?

If you would go around Vancouver/Portland, why would one assume that they would go west and not east when their destination was in an easterly direction? Is it related to the altitude that they had to maintain?

What about flights into and out of PDX while 305 was in that area - I can't remember the status of that?

Thanks

First, I have to congratulate the Seattle Seahawks for winning their NFC Divisional playoff game against the New Orleans Saints. You have to give it to the Saints for spirit, though. They never gave up, they kept trying until the last minute. I give them kudos on this, since Seattle is a tough venue.

Your questions are legitimate, Smokin' 99. There IS a question on the flight path, and Cooper's actual DZ as well. I personally believe a great deal of that DZ is based on the point where 305's flight engineer saw the indicator light for the airstairs flash off, and then on again for good during the flight to Reno. That exact moment is in dispute, and can probably only be narrowed to a window of a couple of minutes.

One person I trust in this whole thing is Paul Soderlind and his team at NWA. Soderlind was no dummy, and remember that NWA had some amount of time to prepare, to set up, while 305 was on the ground in Seattle. We're talking 1971 technology here, and a situation coming on Thanksgiving Eve that no one expected. I think everyone did the best they could, and if anyone with NWA went on the record they did the same thing.

Sometimes things really ARE as simple as they appear. No body, no briefcase, no parachutes, no money except miles from V23, and that includes MORE than one bundle of the cash. This lessens the odds that it arrived there naturally.

Before any of these questions can be settled, the Seattle FBI (in my humble opinion) should establish the parameters on why they believe the 'official' flight path is correct, whatever it is.

Funny.

Really funny!

What does: "Before any of these questions can be settled, the
Seattle FBI (in my humble opinion) should establish the
parameters on why they believe the 'official' flight path is
correct, whatever it is. " .... mean?

"should establish the parameters on why they believe" ?

"parameters on why they believe" ?


or:

'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the
wabe, all mimsy and borogovian. And the mome raths outgrabed
as monads coircile."

I think that is a fair translation of what you just said!

[georger 197]

smokin99

***"And so my same concerns - the path on the dropzone looks different than the one on the flightpath document. So which one do you go with?"

I have to disagree with the two maps not lining up. to date I believe we are looking at two different maps in two different scales. when I first looked at the two, I thought the same thing. when you scale them up they seem to match up. the original FBI drop map is zoomed in much closer than the scale of the flight path map itself. I could be wrong, but it seems to match pretty good.

the 8:10 location seems to line up pretty good to the M location on the original drop map.

You might be right - I could not get a great resolution and couldn't find a magnifying glass.

And though the two flight paths might be the same - I haven't checked that closely yet - but I was not looking at the one with the pins. I was looking at this one below in comparison with the LINE c-d-e-s on jumpzone attached.
But I didn't try to overlay them. I was going off of a couple of landmarks and measurements, and the resolution is not so great so I could be wrong. It happens occasionally.
http://n467us.com/Data%20Files/FBI%20Flight%20Path%20PDX.jpg

better copy -