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DB Cooper

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Robert99

******If you are talking about the white tube above the gauges on the right side, there is an identical one across from it on the left. So it may not have anything to do with the gauges.



Thank you Humongous. I see that thingy now. It is in fact
the hand rail. Same handrail both sides of the stairwell. They
have mounted their instrument thingy to the handrail thingy,
however there is as yet a wire and what may be a fastener
thingy still unexplained. I wonder if these instruments are self
contained or if one or two need electrical power? I am sure you
know all about it!

The clock was probably spring powered but could have been electrical although it probably wasn't. Neither the VSI or the altimeter would be electrical. All three would need electrical connections for lighting during night flights.

Basically, the answer to your question is that no electrical power would be needed for reading during the daytime, other things being equal.

Robert99

Thats sort of what I assumed ... instructors used to use old
surplus aircraft instruments in the lab, eons ago. None of them
required power ... amazing technology. I can see why 377
collects them!

BTW where is 377 on all of this ?

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"Would you classify law enforcement officers in the same manner as you classify Marines?"

a cop is sent out everyday to serve and protect. same for the military, cops don't have helicopters with multiple weapons on them for the sole purpose of killing. the military is not required in war to fire a warning shot at someone before they shot them. (kill or be killed) war is not a good thing any way you look at it, but rest assure they are trained to kill, rather than reason with a difficult person, or a person drugs a cop might have to shoot. the cop has to make sure he is in the right. the military can kill as long as they are showing a threat or have weapons on them. I see two goals in sending troops. one would be a show of force. number two would be to eliminate (kill) as many as they can find. cops don't search for people to kill. so I think there is a big difference between the two???

just a thought......B|
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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georger

******yes that is correct on the VSI reading.


Well, I'm glad you agree with me. It would be kind of a shock for me to find out I'd taught people how to fly and was wrong about that. ;)

Quote

now this triggered something I wasn't paying attention too. the picture shows someone at the bottom of the stairs. if this is a VSI, it's show how much the plane is pitching upward. this would be the reason for the photo?

my simulator doesn't do much when I drop the stairs. going to check something.....



Planes don't have to pitch up to gain altitude, especially the maybe 50 or so feet per minute being indicated there. I'm not going to get into the whole "pitch controls the airspeed and thrust controls climb" thing, but yeah, it does. Beyond that, it's entirely possible the pilot is anticipating for what would almost certainly be a pitch down as the stairs lower more with more weight on them. In any case, I wouldn't attach too much significance to the exact moment the photo was taken. It's entirely possible the stairs flopping around is causing the instruments to fluctuate as well.

Lastly, I doubt your simulator does much in the way of simulating the aerodynamics of the stairs in flight.

The 305 727 had a socalled Black Box. I assume that box has a
clock. How detailed is the data collected by that black box in
terms of pitch, roll, altitude events, pressure events ... so that
one could reconstruct a running record that is in real time ?

A record of 305's flight parms during the 8:00-8:20 period ?

a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data.
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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georger

******yes that is correct on the VSI reading.


Well, I'm glad you agree with me. It would be kind of a shock for me to find out I'd taught people how to fly and was wrong about that. ;)

Quote

now this triggered something I wasn't paying attention too. the picture shows someone at the bottom of the stairs. if this is a VSI, it's show how much the plane is pitching upward. this would be the reason for the photo?

my simulator doesn't do much when I drop the stairs. going to check something.....



Planes don't have to pitch up to gain altitude, especially the maybe 50 or so feet per minute being indicated there. I'm not going to get into the whole "pitch controls the airspeed and thrust controls climb" thing, but yeah, it does. Beyond that, it's entirely possible the pilot is anticipating for what would almost certainly be a pitch down as the stairs lower more with more weight on them. In any case, I wouldn't attach too much significance to the exact moment the photo was taken. It's entirely possible the stairs flopping around is causing the instruments to fluctuate as well.

Lastly, I doubt your simulator does much in the way of simulating the aerodynamics of the stairs in flight.

The 305 727 had a socalled Black Box. I assume that box has a
clock. How detailed is the data collected by that black box in
terms of pitch, roll, altitude events, pressure events ... so that
one could reconstruct a running record that is in real time ?

A record of 305's flight parms during the 8:00-8:20 period ?

Those black box times are accurate (both the flight data and the cockpit voice recorders). And so are the times in the Air Traffic Control transcripts. The information from these sources is correlated during accident/incident investigations to reconstruct the sequence of events.

Robert99

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mrshutter45

a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data.



Correct. Since the Cooper landing zone estimate was supposedly prepared from flight data recorder information, among other things, someone would have had to be certain enough that Cooper had jumped to pull the circuit breaker for the FDR in order to preserve the record.

Robert99

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mrshutter45

there does seem to be some wire in the photo that doesn't seem to belong. note the two wires on the right side bathroom door, they are running right over the handle?

the gauge is attached to the hand railing.....



Shutter, I believe that the bathroom was on the right side of the fuselage and just behind the seat row that Cooper occupied. Also, I understand that the interphone and meal preparation area was on the left side of the fuselage in the area where those wires are. I do not know the purpose of the wires but they were probably used only in the FBI tests.

Robert99

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RobertMBlevins

If Sheridan really was Cooper, he would have come to the party dressed appropriately and with the proper shoes. Cooper sounds more like a guy who either learned his jumping skills from a book, had very little experience, or no experience for a long time at the time of the hijacking. It's hard to tell exactly.



RobertM, that would seem to apply to KC as well, would it not?

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Robert99

***a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data.



Correct. Since the Cooper landing zone estimate was supposedly prepared from flight data recorder information, among other things, someone would have had to be certain enough that Cooper had jumped to pull the circuit breaker for the FDR in order to preserve the record.

Robert99

Would be interesting to know when thatwas done. It's not
in the Transcript. :o

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Robert99

***there does seem to be some wire in the photo that doesn't seem to belong. note the two wires on the right side bathroom door, they are running right over the handle?

the gauge is attached to the hand railing.....



Shutter, I believe that the bathroom was on the right side of the fuselage and just behind the seat row that Cooper occupied. Also, I understand that the interphone and meal preparation area was on the left side of the fuselage in the area where those wires are. I do not know the purpose of the wires but they were probably used only in the FBI tests.

Robert99

correct, I was stating the wires seem out of the norm. I guess I should have said the right side on the photo. what is behind that door if it isn't a bathroom? I see now you explained the room....disregard
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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georger

******a black box records on a loop, only a certain amount of time until it runs over the data with new data.



Correct. Since the Cooper landing zone estimate was supposedly prepared from flight data recorder information, among other things, someone would have had to be certain enough that Cooper had jumped to pull the circuit breaker for the FDR in order to preserve the record.

Robert99

Would be interesting to know when thatwas done. It's not
in the Transcript. :o

Georger, You have just stated the whole problem here. Most of the important things have been deleted from the transcripts by parties known or unknown and they are certainly not going to "fess up" at this late date.

Robert99

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MarkBennett

*** If Sheridan really was Cooper, he would have come to the party dressed appropriately and with the proper shoes. Cooper sounds more like a guy who either learned his jumping skills from a book, had very little experience, or no experience for a long time at the time of the hijacking. It's hard to tell exactly.



RobertM, that would seem to apply to KC as well, would it not?

correct, this always makes me wonder about the knowledge. would a smoke jumper who is trained to protect himself in a drop wear a suit for a night jump? those guys wore heavy duty stuff. I understand some might parts of the gear is not needed, but a suit vs smoke jumpers gear?
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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mrshutter45

****** If Sheridan really was Cooper, he would have come to the party dressed appropriately and with the proper shoes. Cooper sounds more like a guy who either learned his jumping skills from a book, had very little experience, or no experience for a long time at the time of the hijacking. It's hard to tell exactly.



RobertM, that would seem to apply to KC as well, would it not?

correct, this always makes me wonder about the knowledge. would a smoke jumper who is trained to protect himself in a drop wear a suit for a night jump? those guys wore heavy duty stuff. I understand some might parts of the gear is not needed, but a suit vs smoke jumpers gear?

I remember at the time, Cooper's dress and audacity, as it was
perceived, had him appearing as some kind of "joke", a Hippie in
a suit, a political activist making some kind of political
statement, ... an audacious nutcase parachuting into the
"wilderness of Washington" during a rainstorm in the political
climate of chaos and national protesting at the time. The
political overtones conveyed in the news were strong. Cooper
fit squarely into the national angst at the time -

That bias has worn off perhaps. People half expected to find Mr.
Cooper wandering around half crazed from lack of food and
stress, with a broken leg at minimum ... or a body somewhere,
dead. With his $200,000 in twenties spread out by the wind
over 20 square miles...

All of that was based on the original search area announced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gJjkiNMUB8

People at Vancouver, for example, went about their business
while a few went north to join in the search. Nobody suspected
Cooper money would turn up at Tina Bar of all places, in 1980!

Could Bob Knoss be D.B. Cooper! :D:D:D

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'All of that was based on the original search area announced."

the original search area they couldn't even search from the air correctly due to cloud coverage. someone sent me documents pertaining to the issues the SR-71 had trying to photograph the drop zone.

he gave permission to post them....thanks SM B|
"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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mrshutter45

'All of that was based on the original search area announced."

the original search area they couldn't even search from the air correctly due to cloud coverage. someone sent me documents pertaining to the issues the SR-71 had trying to photograph the drop zone.

he gave permission to post them....thanks SM B|

Quote



They were convinced he had bailed north.

Perhaps he did.

Odd considering ...

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georger

***'All of that was based on the original search area announced."

the original search area they couldn't even search from the air correctly due to cloud coverage. someone sent me documents pertaining to the issues the SR-71 had trying to photograph the drop zone.

he gave permission to post them....thanks SM B|

Quote



They were convinced he had bailed north.

Perhaps he did.

Odd considering ...

they seemed to of been convinced of a lot of things at the start of the investigation. I don't think they agree with some things from the past today....

"It is surprising how aggressive people get, once they latch onto their suspect and say, 'Hey, he's our guy.' No matter what you tell them, they refuse to believe you" Agent Carr FBI

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MarkBennett

*** If Sheridan really was Cooper, he would have come to the party dressed appropriately and with the proper shoes. Cooper sounds more like a guy who either learned his jumping skills from a book, had very little experience, or no experience for a long time at the time of the hijacking. It's hard to tell exactly.



RobertM, that would seem to apply to KC as well, would it not?

'No experience for a long time' is most applicable to Kenny. I never found a single bit of evidence showing that KC ever jumped as a civilian. So if he was Cooper, he hadn't jumped in approximately 25 years, and when he HAD jumped, it was always the military providing the gear. He was dirt poor as well. One of the strange things about him was never talking about being a paratrooper. The only two people who actually knew this were Mr and Mrs Geestman. I got the same answer from several people who had known him from about the late sixties until his death. I would tell them what he did in the war. They would say: 'Really? Funny he never talked about it...' This answer was almost universal from his co-workers and some of his friends. It's hard to figure Kenny sometimes. Like his post-hijacking changes, for example. He quit attending the union meetings. He never discussed the hijacking. He skipped his 25th anniversary dinner with the airline in Minneapolis. He went from a sharp dresser to dressing like a farmer. Threw away the toupee, etc. Sometimes I've wondered why he did those things. Maybe they mean something, maybe they don't.

I won't BS you here. I told Porteous that perhaps the reason the hijacker selected the NB-6/8 container was because that was the only one brought aboard he was familiar with. Also, this 'front and back chute' stuff could point to someone who hadn't jumped in a long time. Funny way to ask for parachutes. I've always wondered about it. That's just a guess, of course. Another reason might be the hijacker knew the sport model was dangerous because of the speed of the jet. Who knows...;)


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RobertMBlevins

I told Porteous that perhaps the reason the hijacker selected the NB-6/8 container was because that was the only one brought aboard he was familiar with. Also, this 'front and back chute' stuff could point to someone who hadn't jumped in a long time. Funny way to ask for parachutes.



The "front and back chute" remark is a funny way to ask for parachutes and indicates that Cooper was not a paratrooper to begin with.

Also, Army paratroopers would not normally come in contact with the Navy NB-6/8 parachutes.

Robert99

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On the DNA testing of the letters:

Well it will not happen! I have pushed for that for yrs before I knew any of you guys. Especially the one sent out of an area 13 miles from where Duane's sister lived...but the newpaper did NOT keep th envelope and the note was sent on to the FBI - this was presumed by a jouralist I spoke to many many yrs ago.

As for the DNA and/or prints belonging to Sheridan - I doubt it.
Since the location of the notes are questionable - it is very doubtful they will ever turn up again or be tested for prints and/or DNA.

The woman with Weber at that time had children from a previous marriage and her DNA and prints would in my guess be what was on such notes - if any of them actually were sent by Cooper. The one I feel strongly about is the one with the numbers and mailed from California.

Good Luck on getting this done - I stand behind it but WE all know the government is NOT going to spend another cent on Cooper. Perhaps an independent lab wanting to make a name for its self might do this for a 60 minutes program on Cooper.

BUT will the FBI allow access to ALL of the letters - and I mean ALL of them!
Most important is the one the media reported and then the article was immediately buried!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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georger



And you have ZIP on Kenny on 4 Clydesdales abreast with the
Cooper Comic nailed to a wall in the wheel house of Tug No.40
at Foss Tugboats ... all in a trailer at some campground now
changed to a tool shack in the woods near Anti Gravity Hill !
:D



Georger - Please! The thread has been warned about the PISSING contests. Even though most of us disagree with Blevins - it is best NOT to repeat the posting and if YOU have to say something - just be polite. Post a smile or a frown!

He just cannot help himself - especially when he feels he needs to defend himself. Frankly I feel that way LOTS of time. Note - when I do I do make a comment - but DO not repeat their entire post!

Try it! PLEASE! :)
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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Robert99

[Known or unknown and they are certainly not going to "fess up" at this late date.

Robert99



How do you know this data was erased? Are U saying all we have are the transcripts? WHY? This is negligence from the GET GO if they where actually erased! Who would erase them and HOW long does the Black Box record and how often does it reset?

Excuse my layman terms - but, I am just that DUMB old woman who makes not sense sometimes! Some of what U guys discuss GOES right over the COO's nest so I try NOT to get involved in these conversations - I DO read them!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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Robert99

***I told Porteous that perhaps the reason the hijacker selected the NB-6/8 container was because that was the only one brought aboard he was familiar with. Also, this 'front and back chute' stuff could point to someone who hadn't jumped in a long time. Funny way to ask for parachutes.



The "front and back chute" remark is a funny way to ask for parachutes and indicates that Cooper was not a paratrooper to begin with.

Also, Army paratroopers would not normally come in contact with the Navy NB-6/8 parachutes.

Robert99

Yeah, an Army Paratrooper might ask for a "Main and Reserve". Smoke Jumpers use the same terms, and that theory may eliminate other candidates too.

Matt
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

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The three gauges!

Well, it looks like something in my office:

Top one is a thermometer
Second one a Barometoer
Third one a Humidty gauge.

I am sure they had NO reason for gauges as simple as those are, but thought it was interesting when I looked at it - I looked on my wall and thought - hmmm! Now you guys can HEE HAW me - thought I would lighten the conversation up a little - it is WAY over my head!

Where are the test studies and documents for that study they did. Cost a lot of money NOT to have kept records - you would think!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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matthewcline

Can you point me back to the post that has the proof KC was a Army trained Paratrooper? I seem to have missed it from my last query.

Matt



Do you think we should accept this as fact? His files at AB contain his discharge paper with his thumbprint, we have his service history, which includes induction date, assignments, training history, etc. Most of this has been posted previously. I don't keep copies on my computer. I would have to scan them and post them...and on Sunday I just don't feel like it. Nothing personal.

However...if you insist, I will dig them up, or at least enough to satisfy.

It's hard to tell whether the hijacker had military training or not, and I'll admit the 'front and back chute' thing is strange. There is another angle to that, though. Maybe the hijacker was attempting to get what he wanted WITHOUT giving away his history. Or...maybe he thought the people who would go and get the chutes might not know the terms main and reserve. Who knows? I sure don't. Any case against KC is based on three main things, (witness testimony, documents, pictures) and although the evidence is tantalizing, it still doesn't prove he was Cooper.

I guess the main reason I tried to boil down everything into that report wasn't really for the Seattle FBI. It was for anyone who wanted to go further and try to find out if he was the guy or not. I ran out of time, and had to move on from active investigation. Between the website entry and the NV article, it's being downloaded about 80-120 times a week. Sooner or later...:)

Hey, it was something anyway. Better than other people who just present 'Because I told you so...' :)
Edit: I have a few things on Kenny's service but I will have to run them up. Porteous sent his copy of the discharge papers to the Seattle FBI in 2007, before I had heard of either he or Christiansen. If you want to run a check on Kenneth Peter Christiansen, US Army, last rank Tec 5, his SSN was 473-30-3599. The only thing I have on my computer is a picture of his belt buckle with the paratrooper logo and a partial shot of his discharge paper. I had asked Porteous for the thumbprint. The remainder is in photographs which I would have to scan up. You can probably get his basics quicker than I can dig everything out of the files get them scanned.

Until then, here's his basic enlistment record attached. It only covers the time when he was at Ft Leavenworth for Basic. Later, he volunteered for the paratroops and went off to Fort Benning.

Skipp Porteous and Geoff Gray met in 2007 over at Porteous' office, and Gray examined KC's full military record. Here's an excerpt from Gray about it:

Quote

'I sit down at the dining room table. Porteous slides me the file. I pull out a few papers. One is a photo. The image is of a gravesite, for Lyle’s brother. I read the name.
KENNETH P. CHRISTIANSEN
TEC 5 US ARMY
WORLD WAR II
OCT 17 1926—JUL 30 1994
So Lyle’s brother’s name was Kenny. I wonder what he died from. Cancer, Porteous says. The pancreas. That’s what Lyle told him.

I read Kenny’s military record.
PARACHUTIST’S BADGE, ASIATIC PACIFIC THEATER.
So it was true. Kenny knew about parachutes...' (etc)




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No need to defend your subject with repeated posting. Rusty jumping experience or little knowledge at all. This is what the transcripts and what was told about Cooper seem to indicate.

Very unlikely Cooper had a lot of jumping experience! Basic knowledge, old knowledge or recently acquired knowledge thru association....seems to be the only expertise displayed by Cooper.

Blevins you stated in referencing Kenny's "war" time.

"They would say: 'Really? Funny he never talked about it..."

You do understand the jest of this?
You said WAR TIME. Do you know what this term means to those who served on the battle fields? Do you know what that question means to the average woman out there who was NOT heavily connected to military? These old folks thought you meant he was on the front lines - most do not think in terms of being based or in a position out of harms way. Why when those who served out of harms way - will usually say - 'I served during WWI, but I was not on the front lines." They do NOT want to TAKE AWAY from those who did and quickly qualify their positions.

Kenny was mild manner person and would never have bragged about his tour of duty in a way that a braggart would.

As for Kenny not attending class reunions after so many yrs. Many attended every reunion, but those who lived a distance away - ONLY attended the most important one and now the economy keeps some from attending. Also the timing of some re-unions conflicts with other engagements - like a grandchild graduating from high school or college or a wedding. Sometime we just drift away and/or feel our money has a better place to be spent. Those who live close - usually go.

Well, when I retired I started looking like a gardner and a homemaker. THAT is life! We dress for the occassion...life becomes casual. Some days I look like a bag lady.

Asking for a front and back chute was INDEED a strange way to ask for chutes! WHY do you think the authorities thought Cooper splattered? So was also asking for a Knapsack! Seems like a lot of the terminology used indicated Cooper was well into his 40's. Perhap the Marla supporters should have studied the language and terminologies use by COOPER!

Antiquated! Acquired knowledge from observation or was Cooper just trying to throw everyone off.
Really Cooper was NOT that smart.
Perhaps Cooper expected to die or to be caught and sent to prison.

Why would someone do something like that? What was going on in the mind of Cooper? Why did Tina state "He was a VERY SAD man."

I seriously do not think a man who knew chutes and who had a lot of experience would have portrayed the image of a SAD man! Just a little FOOD for thought!

The profilers if there was such a thing in 1971 and those who have done profiles on Cooper after the fact - need to re-evaluate their chosen profession. Cooper was childish when he actually saw the money and held it in his hands!
This information is in the FBI files and in the witness testimonies per the newpapers and other media sources.

Useful information if one knows their subject!
Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

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