Mal report - begginers should read this

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Disclaimer: I have 4 jumps and no nothing about skydiving!!!!
I do remember reading somewhere that in formation skydiving it would be advisable to wear chest mounted altimeters, aloowing not only yourself, but also your teammates to look at them. What would be the issue against that?
I understand the argument that altimeters are a mechanical device and that they can fail. But would that same argument not also go for AADs, RSLs or even reserve parachutes or a 3 ring cutaway system, all mechanical devices that could safe your life yet could fail as well?
SkyDekker
"We cannot do great things, only small things with great love" Mother Theresa

[DanG 1]

I have to agree that there is no really good reason not to wear a visual. If you choose not to, however, I think it very wise to carry two audibles, in case one fails.
My 4-way team's coach does not wear a visual, and I have talked to him about this. He says the same thing that weid says. He doesn't check it anyway, and that he always has two audibles (of two different makes and models), and also has 6000 jumps. As we discussed it more, he admitted that there is one situation where having a visual is extremely important. That is a canopy wrap. It such a situation your eyes and audibles are both useless, and knowing your altitude may change your emergency procedures.
I wear a visual because, at only about 900 jumps, I'm not accurate to within 500 feet unless I am right over the DZ. That and checking my visual during a 4-way dive (which I'll admit I don't do often) is faster than looking at the ground.
- Dan G

[AndyMan 7]

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I understand the argument that altimeters are a mechanical device and that they can fail. But would that same argument not also go for AADs, RSLs or even reserve parachutes or a 3 ring cutaway system, all mechanical devices that could safe your life yet could fail as well?

I think a better example is the spedometer in your car... it's mechanical too, it is possible it'll fail, but we still trust them and rely on them.
Barometric analog altimeters rarely ever "fail". It's pretty rare, but occaisionally they'll stick, but will usually catch up in a few seconds.
That said, the idea that I wouldn't take one or use one because it might fail seems to be as silly as not having a spedometer in my car because it might fail. Take it, use it, but also LOOK OUT THE FRICKIN WINDOW! (or in skydiving, look at the ground).
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
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[rgoper 0]

it's a well known fact they don't work as well due to the "burble" on the rw diver's chest area.
Richard

[Jimbo 0]

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it's a well known fact they don't work as well due to the "burble" on the rw diver's chest area.

Isn't the burble generally on the back? Either way, a chest mounted alti should work well enough (+/- 1000 feet) that it's beneficial to those who need it. No?

[AndyMan 7]

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it's a well known fact they don't work as well due to the "burble" on the rw diver's chest area.

That's a bit of a stretch, I think... the burble would be on the jumpers back, not their chest.
There would only be a burble on their chest if they were freeflying, not doing RW. I wore a chest mount when I was doing 4way. They were very handy.
_Am
ICQ: 5578907
MSN Messenger: andrewdmetcalfe at hotmail dot com
AIM: andrewdmetcalfe
Yahoo IM: ametcalf_1999

[Remster 24]

Its not a well known fact Richard.. I dont know if its a fact at all...
Chest mounted altis are very well positioned for RW. if I was doing 4way again, I'd mount mine back there, and ask my teammate do the same. That position allows you to see the altimetres af the other people during the skydive without altering your position of where you are looking.
Also, its ideal for tracking.
So if you have data to show taht a chest mount alti is affected by a new "chest burbble", can you share?
Remster
Muff 914

[riggerrob 558]

If it is a "well know fact that chest mounted altimeters are inaccurate due to a burble," how come this is the first time I have heard of this burble in 25 years of skydiving?
Granted sit flyers sometimes suffer altimeter inaccuracies due to chest-mounted burbles.
Altimeters are basically training wheels until you develop a sense of timing and learn to "eyeball" altitude. By the time you have learned to eyeball altitude, you have worn a visual altimeter for so many hundred jumps that you feel naked walking to the plane without it.
Bellytive workers and freefall instructors should wear visual altimeters for the benefit of others on the jump. Bellytive workers normally read the altimeter of the guy on the other side of the formation.
Freefall instructors at Perris always wear wrist and chest altimeters, for two reasons. First, students instinctively drop altimeters on concrete, so you always need a spare altimeter on the plane. Secondly, the student can read the instructor's altimeter.

[james1010 0]

"Altimeters are basically training wheels until you develop a sense of timing and learn to "eyeball" altitude."
Just a student, but all I hear is either Arch or Altitude Awareness. Seems odd that alot of Skydivers choose not use an altimeter. You're blowin a Newbies mind here , say it ain't so!

[quade 3]

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It seems that usually an audible altimeter that has 3 warnings have 3 distinct sounds with the third being a flat line of some sort. What type was he using?

If it was a flat line, then it was a Time-out.
Dytter products use a siren.
quade
http://futurecam.com

[billvon 2,400]

>it's a well known fact they don't work as well due to the "burble" on the rw diver's
> chest area.
The burble is on his back. The only time that's an issue is when sit flying or doing something like a horny gorilla. In that case a chest-mounted altimeter is indeed in the burble. During normal belly flying it's in a nearly ideal position.
-bill von

[billvon 2,400]

>I do remember reading somewhere that in formation skydiving it would be
> advisable to wear chest mounted altimeters, aloowing not only yourself, but also
> your teammates to look at them. What would be the issue against that?
Nothing. Many people do just that.
>I understand the argument that altimeters are a mechanical device and that they
> can fail. But would that same argument not also go for AADs, RSLs or even
> reserve parachutes or a 3 ring cutaway system, all mechanical devices that
> could safe your life yet could fail as well?
Failure of an altimeter will not kill you, so it's not as critical as those systems. One advantage that visual altimeters have over audibles is that, if the needle stops moving or the display goes blank, you know you have a broken altimeter, and you should look down. Audibles give no indication that they have failed.
-bill von

[airdrew20012001 0]

Interesting discussion. For those of you new to the sport I would say always wear an altimeter regardless of what others are doing. If you find some day that they are without use, get rid of them. For those of you who choose not to wear them, I am fine with that. Skydiving is a sport that requires self regulation and an understanding of one's limits. If you are within them continue as you were.
The person I was speaking of wanted one but didn't have one because he felt emberassed having to ask for one. He only had around 100 jumps. When he heard the warning on his Time Out he chopped not because his eyes told him he was low, not because his visual failed, but because he didn't know.
Further, I think the more important moral to the story is to try to stay calm. The problem was one that could have been fixed and landed by what I could see. Unfortunately, this skydiver fixated on the unstowed break instead of releasing the stowed one then freaked when his dytter went off while he was still in a spin under a fast moving eliptical canopy. Interesting discussion.
For what it is worth, I am pushing 500 jumps and have never had a visual malfunction. Nore have I ever been on a load where one has, talked to a skydiver who has one that has, or been on the DZ when one had.
Drewfus McDoofus

[Schroeder 0]

Not to play devil's advocate here, but Quade, you know a thing or two about areodynamics, and likely fluid dynamics. If you have a surface being presented to a flow of, well, anything, you will have 2 pressure areas, the low pressure in the rear, and the high pressure in the front. In the case of the altimeter, obviously the burble above a jumper will "trick" the alti, but what about in front of him/her? Is there a higher pressure area on the leading edge of a jumper's arch? Like on an airfoil, I've seen fluid modeling programs show that effect. So I guess I'm just wondering if it's negligable, or if it does actually affect it. (of course, a higher pressure would only make it read lower than the actual alt., but still.)
"If I ventured in the slipstream; Between the via-ducts of your dreams.......could you find me?"

[DanG 1]

I've had a visual fail. I banged it on exit from a 182, and it didn't move the whole jump. I was very new to the sport, and doing a solo. After a few double takes on the altimeter, and a lot of head scratching, I looked down, but couldn't tell how high I was. I pulled at probably about 6000. I knew I was high, but figured it was better than being low. After that, I made a much more serious effort to figure out what different altitudes look like.
Even though one failed on me, I still wear one on every jump.
- Dan G

[rgoper 0]

**Granted sit flyers sometimes suffer altimeter inaccuracies due to chest-mounted burbles.**
this is what i meant, next time i'll spell it out to the letter. jeez_us_h
Richard

[billvon 2,400]

>After a few double takes on the altimeter, and a lot of head scratching, I
>looked down, but couldn't tell how high I was. I pulled at probably about 6000.
And this is why visual altimeters fail more safely than audibles. When would a jumper with an audible begin to suspect that his had failed?
-bill von

[weid14 0]

Bill -- is that a trick question? everyone knows it's when the cypres fires Glad to see a healthy discussion, that's a good thing.

[jbrasher 0]

Multiple points of reference are the most desirable.
Any ONE may fail but it's unlikely that all would be off at the same time.
If you're comparing multiple referneces and they/one are not making sense you have a problem.
Red, White and Blue Skies,
John T. Brasher D-5166

[Jonsmann 0]

The burble usually refers to the low pressure region on the back of a bellyflier. However, there are also a high pressure region on the chest. It is maybe 10-20 times weaker than the low pressure on the back, but it is still there.
In freefall chest mounted altimeters will therefore show a slightly lower altitude than a wrist mounted altimeter.
- Jacques

[SkydiveMonkey 0]

I got myself a pro-track while still on student status, just to help with altitude awareness (I still used my wristmount all of the time though). Now, I'm going to buy myself a pro-dytter as I feel any aid to altitude awareness is good, the more the better.
When you participate in sporting events, its not whether you win or loose, its how drunk you get.

[airdrew20012001 0]

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i didn't even bother reading the responses this one got, so i'll make mine now to save time.

Hmm......nice you could voice your opinion while ignoring the opinions of others. You must be a manager.
Drewfus McDoofus

[rgoper 0]

and you? a stand up comedian? brush up on your skills! J/K
Richard

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Yeah, I jumped once without my Pro-Track. Forgot to take my seatbelt off .
Seriously though, it's very errie to jump continously with one, then jump without - the whole jump I had this feeling of 'this is not quite right' and checked the visual twice as much as before.

[mccordia 73]

I've only been jumping for a year, so I'm no authority when it comes to matters like these, but what I don't understand is....an altimeter doesn't realy limit your range of movement. Why would you want to jump without one? It's no bother to have one with you...(or is it a money issue?)
I do trust my eyes, and I recognize when I'm at about 3.000 ft (time to pull) but still I wouldn't dream about skydiving without one. But I tend to look at my eyes as a backup in case the visual altimeter fails. But even if you don't (think) you need it...why not cary one as a backup divice for when your eyes fail (or maybe you're in a rare situation where you can't see the ground, god knows why...)