Will you land off with your jump buddies

[flyangel2 2]

First off, Wow, Steve is doing some CReW. Great, hope we can get together next time I'm out and do some jumps.

Yes, I will always follow someone if they had a malfunction. Last Saturday while at the DZ, I couldn't believe when one of the video guys had a reserve ride, and not one person followed his freebag or even him. Their excuse: Oh, sorry, we didn't see it. How hard is it to look around and count canopies when doing a four way?
On my last trip to Eloy, John and I landed out cause we saw a malfunction. One of us followed the freebag, and the other one landed need the jumper. Turns out, the guy wasn't even in our group. So, I don't buy the excuse that no one saw or noticed. My last malfunction I had, one guy landed near my free bag, and another one landed near me. It's always nice to have someone to talk to after having gone through that.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Michele 1]

I answered yes, but I need to caveat that.

I am not really good enough to intentionally land near someone if I'm not planning that up high (and even then it's iffy - and close for me is 40-75 feet). I'm also not good enough to be able to put myself down into a small spot, if there are obstacles around it.

However, if it's at Elsinore/Perris, and it's "out" but not across the road or the like, I will follow them unless I see someone else doing it. If someone else is doing it, then my best bet is to land and get some assistence headed out from the people at the dz.

When I am better able to figure out where I'm going to land on much shorter notice, then yes, I most certainly will. Until then, it becomes more of a question of will I contribute to the solution or the problem...

However, I've pulled off the side of the road to watch a jumper land off, and then drive to them and make sure they're all right, and give them a lift in.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[flyangel2 2]

Michele, you're doing the right thing. If you're not comfortable with your landings in an off field situation, then don't add to the problem. Someday, you'll be swooping those freebag

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[rjf98 0]

I tend to follow. I have in the past. Funny story follows.

Collegiates 1999-2000. Sitting around BSing before the next round. A car pulls up to Marana, and who steps out... an Air Force Cadet with rig!!!

Being the new officer that I was at the time (and an Aggie of course) I couldn't help but start harrassing them about leaving a buddy behind and what great teamwork they must be teaching at the academy etc etc. Of course, the prior enlisted in me just knew that the enlisted coaching staff would raise all kinds of hell... and you can bet they did

It was damn funny. Besides, they spanked us, I had to get my digs in somehow.

[Michele 1]

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Someday, you'll be swooping those freebag

Yup, and catching them with my toesies. In the meantime, I'll just practice a whole lot in my imagination. LOL!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

I agree with Mar...WOW Steve! I'm so impressed that you are trying multiple disciplines...and with the canopy skills you already have, it makes sense that you'd enjoy CReW. I enjoyed watching you play with the CReW Dawgs on your first few jumps this weekend! Thanks for letting me sit in on your brief/debrief sessions, I learned a lot!
As far as following someone who lands out, once my canopy skills improve, I would certainly look out for my peers just as I'd hope they'd look out for me.

_________________________________________

[Nullified 0]

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I've followed freefallers under reserve and spotted and/or retrieved gear on a couple of occasions. Without exception they've been pleasantly surprised to find out someone was looking out for them when they expected to be on their own.

Yeah, I don't think anyone should land alone.
Regardless of the type of jump I'm doing, if someone is landing off and I can safely make it to where that person is landing, I will try to land with them...mal or not.
I always have my cell with me, and you never know whether the person is hurt or not.

Stay safe,
Mike

Edited to add; Jim, sorry I couldn't land in that tree with you last weekend

If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid.

[Decibel 0]

It's interesting (or maybe expected) that all the CRWdogs are all over following someone or their gear down... they're the most experienced canopy pilots around! :)

But everyone should remember the number 1 rule of emergency response/search & rescue:

Your safety comes before all else; another injury makes things worse not better.

Having said that, I've seen one cutaway and watched the main for as long as I felt I should (didn't really know enough to look for the freebag at that point). Hopefully one of these days I'll be good enough to do more than just watch gear fall to the ground.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Your safety comes before all else; another injury makes things worse not better."
Absolutely.
But you can normally land close enough to avoid placing yourself at risk (only you can decide if this is possible).
The last time I followed (a dotcommer by the way, how are things Conway?) a cutaway, I made sure I had a fix on his gear then landed a short way away, in the same field as the jumper.
I was disappointed to see nobody else from the load offering assistance in this particular case.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Ron 7]

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Your safety comes before all else; another injury makes things worse not better.

Which is another reason to land on the DZ and send help. Plus many times the best thing you can do for an injured person is call 911 and direct them to the injured person.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rehmwa 2]

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I couldn't believe when one of the video guys had a reserve ride, and not one person followed his freebag or even him. Their excuse: Oh, sorry, we didn't see it. How hard is it to look around and count canopies when doing a four way.

It's a good point - we actually had this happen to our video guy three years ago and we felt TERRIBLE. The camera guy opens high (sometimes way higher than the rest of us - we kind of delay and mess around a little at breakoff), then we are typically looking for traffic below us.

Since then, I always check for the ENTIRE team. However, not seeing the camera guy is a good excuse because of special breakoff considerations for him - but only once. At least, I can see how it happens....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[sunshine 2]

If i feel i can safely land off, i will. I have followed down a buddy's free bag before and landed fine. I've also had someone (wmw999) follow me into the desert to help me after i had a reserve ride. It's all about safety first. You gotta decide at that time, in that situation if it's safe or not to do an off landing.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[Genn 0]

In an ideal world...somebody follows the gear..somebody lands with the jumper...and somebody else makes it to the airport to get the car and pick the others up.

[riddler 0]

I have done it and I will do it again. But I feel comfortable landing off. This is something that should only be done by people that feel 100% comfortable with it. If something's not right about the landing area, or if you feel wind or other conditions aren't right, or if you have less than 50 jumps, I would say don't do it.

Now, if you have TWO jump buddies, it works out great, because the first person can chase the jumper to make sure he/she is OK, and the second can chase the cutaway canopy. Bonus points if you get the freebag too

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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But I feel comfortable landing off. This is something that should only be done by people that feel 100% comfortable with it. If something's not right about the landing area, or if you feel wind or other conditions aren't right, or if you have less than 50 jumps, I would say don't do it.

Yes absolutely. This is one reason why I included a third option in this poll. I realized that some people currently do not feel comfortable purposely landing off and yes one must always think of safety first before we start chasing gear or our jump buddies.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Ron 7]

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Yes absolutely. This is one reason why I included a third option in this poll. I realized that some people currently do not feel comfortable purposely landing off and yes one must always think of safety first before we start chasing gear or our jump buddies.

Yeah but your poll options were not very good.

I am experienced enough to land off in most situations..I just think its better to land on the DZ for two reasons.

1. Its the safest place to land...And one broken jumper (If they get broken) is bad...TWO is worse.

2. It is faster to get people to the downed guy if you know where they are...If they land out, and you land out...What if no one sees you both, and he (or you) IS injured?

I have followed mains, freebags, people, and even once a helmet. The only time I land with the person who is out is if I KNOW that someone else is sending help...Or if I am jumping with my cell phone (which I do when I do CRW.)

A broken jumper sitting in a field needs emergency people there...not me with my limited training and no equipment trying to help him.

Its brave and portrays a noble effort to land out with someone....But in most cases you would actually help more by landing on the DZ and making sure that others know EXACTLY where the jumper is. That way emergency crews can actually respond quicker.

Imagine this..a jumper goes down and you land with him....He has a femur sticking out of his leg...Are you going to leave him to get help? (Most people will not...Its a trama thing...even though they can't do anything, they will stay there and try to "help") What if no one else saw him or you land? Now you have to wait for someone to miss you, realize that you are not there...Then start looking for you. They then have to actually FIND you. Then they have to call 911.

If I see a jumper go down...And If I see them hit..I can call 911 while I get to the jumper in the DZ truck WITH emergency gear and if I am so lucky a Dr. or Nurse that jumps ridding with me.

An exception to this rule would be if I can't make the DZ either..Then I land with people...Two people off in two different areas is really bad.

This is why I count people in my group after I land..In most cases I am one of the first to land in my group and I take a mental headcount before I start to pack. If someone is missing, I find them.

I have a friend that was in the middle of a field with a broken femur for 6 hours while no one looked for her....Thats bad form.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[relyon 0]

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I have a friend that was in the middle of a field with a broken femur for 6 hours while no one looked for her....Thats bad form.

This is exactly why I don't let anyone land alone if at all possible. How was this person injured?

Bob

[Ron 7]

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This is exactly why I don't let anyone land alone if at all possible. How was this person injured?

Hit a tree root on landing.

This is why I land back and do a head count. If I was on that jump, and landed off with them....We would have two people off, and no one looking for them. If I was on that jump and landed back at the DZ...Then I could do a headcount and start a search.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TribalTalon 0]

hmm. if i see somebody landing off, and i have no chance of landing at the dz, i'll go ahead and land where the other person landed, if the area is cool. that way we have somebody to bitch with about the horrible spot.

[crwmike 0]

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Yes absolutely. This is one reason why I included a third option in this poll. I realized that some people currently do not feel comfortable purposely landing off and yes one must always think of safety first before we start chasing gear or our jump buddies.

Yeah but your poll options were not very good.

I am experienced enough to land off in most situations..I just think its better to land on the DZ for two reasons.

1. Its the safest place to land...And one broken jumper (If they get broken) is bad...TWO is worse.

2. It is faster to get people to the downed guy if you know where they are...If they land out, and you land out...What if no one sees you both, and he (or you) IS injured?.

I passed on replying to your earlier comments, but since you persist ...

Your point is not totally invalid but, all considerations balanced out, land with your buddy and quit rationalizing a desire to not be inconvenienced.

Injured people can greatly benefit from having someone else there. Can you put pressure on a bleeding wound. Can you pull their head out of water and facilitate breathing? Can you talk and let them know they are not alone (aside from warm fuzzies, you could prevent deadly shock).

If you can safely land out, then land out with them. If they are injured/unconscious (prior to landing), push your own margins of safety to help them.

BSBD,

Michael

[Ron 7]

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Your point is not totally invalid but, all considerations balanced out, land with your buddy and quit rationalizing a desire to not be inconvenienced

You have points...But most people dont' know how to react in an emergency situation..I have seen many people just freakout when someone needs help.

Also many people can't handle off landings well..As clearly pointed out by the fatality reports. Most deaths are off landings...Do you really think its wise to ADVISE people to land off when off landings kill so many people?

You do a lot of CRW...So the world is your DZ...And many people have PRO ratings...YOU and THEY can handle that type of landing...MOST people can't.

So:
If you don't have medical training and are not SURE of your canopy skill level...

Locate the person and the gear and land on the DZ to assist in the recovery efforts.

The simple fact is most people who can pull this type of manuver off...Are not going to not do it cause they read about it here....But you MIGHT convince someone who can't do it to try....And that could be very bad.

The people who can will....But I really don't recomend that people try it unless they KNOW they can handle it...

Telling people its a good idea on here is just going to put it into their heads to try it...And that could be bad.

Mike...How many guys have you seen try to catch a main?

The people in the know would not try it...The people who don't know better do try it..And it can be very bad.

I can't recomend to people to land off when off landings are the #1 killer in this sport right now.

It's safer and in many ways better to land on the DZ and call 911 and lead the emergency people to the injured party instead of making them look for them.

You may not agree, and thats fine. But I will not recommend people risk themselves to try to be a hero.

Besides those that can will anyway.
But I don't want those that can't to even try.

But like I said we don't have to agree

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[webracer 0]

I will definitely land off with folks if it is way off. It is right next to the airport, I'll go to the landing area.
I am loaded 2.1:1, and I make it back more than most.
If there is a mal, I will do my best to help out by getting the freebag, or main, or help the jumper.
Taken one step further, on occasion I have been with a group of newer that could not make it back. I will then pick a good landing area and land early to show the newer folks a safe place to land. Usually if they see me landing, they'll land by me.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[pccoder 0]

i'd like to think i would land off with them, however at my low jump numbers, I am not sure it would be wise for me to land off on purpose.

PcCoder.net

[crwmike 0]

My mistake. I thought we were talking about what you would do.

Skies,

Michael

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Your point is not totally invalid but, all considerations balanced out, land with your buddy and quit rationalizing a desire to not be inconvenienced

You have points...But most people dont' know how to react in an emergency situation..I have seen many people just freakout when someone needs help.

Also many people can't handle off landings well..As clearly pointed out by the fatality reports. Most deaths are off landings...Do you really think its wise to ADVISE people to land off when off landings kill so many people?

You do a lot of CRW...So the world is your DZ...And many people have PRO ratings...YOU and THEY can handle that type of landing...MOST people can't.

So:
If you don't have medical training and are not SURE of your canopy skill level...

Locate the person and the gear and land on the DZ to assist in the recovery efforts.

The simple fact is most people who can pull this type of manuver off...Are not going to not do it cause they read about it here....But you MIGHT convince someone who can't do it to try....And that could be very bad.

The people who can will....But I really don't recomend that people try it unless they KNOW they can handle it...

Telling people its a good idea on here is just going to put it into their heads to try it...And that could be bad.

Mike...How many guys have you seen try to catch a main?

The people in the know would not try it...The people who don't know better do try it..And it can be very bad.

I can't recomend to people to land off when off landings are the #1 killer in this sport right now.

It's safer and in many ways better to land on the DZ and call 911 and lead the emergency people to the injured party instead of making them look for them.

You may not agree, and thats fine. But I will not recommend people risk themselves to try to be a hero.

Besides those that can will anyway.
But I don't want those that can't to even try.

But like I said we don't have to agree

[CloudOnMyTongue 0]

When I was on my forth jump I landed off. It was really rocky and I had a bad landing. I had no serious injuries but I was badly bruised.

When I heard someone behind me ask if I was okay and turned to see my jumpmaster, nothing else could of made me happier.

It was a long walk back,and he was pretty old. But it was really comforting knowing that the staff at the DZ was looking out for me.