cvfd1399 0 #1 December 29, 2004 I have came across people that have stated that they dont care to get more knowledge about the way gear is made/maintained/repaired b/c they dont plan on becomming a rigger. You get the very basics during initial student training, but you still find people that have never taken risers off the rings or checked housings for movement and tacking. How are you promoting safety if you cannot do a correct gear check on anyone not wearing anything but the same gear you jump.. if that? I think the more you know the better off you are. Like PADI/NAUI say never stop learning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winsor 234 #2 December 29, 2004 QuoteI have came across people that have stated that they dont care to get more knowledge about the way gear is made/maintained/repaired b/c they dont plan on becomming a rigger.Quote IMHO, people with such an attitude are well advised to take up another hobby. If the pin setter at the local bowling alley hangs up, and you are unsure of how to reset it, it is no big deal. Pound down another beer while the management sorts things out, and you're back in business. In skydiving, ignorance can be life threatening on a personal level, but it puts the rest of our community at risk as well. I want people around me that are heads-up enough to tap me on the shoulder and bring it to my attention if there is something about my gear that is questionable, not people who don't know the difference. A lackadaisical attitude regarding safety issues is not acceptable, and it speaks of a level of personal responsibility that is incompatible with the demands of this sport. Blue skies, Winsor Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChileRelleno 0 #3 December 29, 2004 Knowledge is Power Knowledge is Safety "I" have the "Power" to be "Safe"! This is way too common, lots of skydivers are ignorant of in-depth gear knowledge. I don't mean masterrigger stuff, just more than "If I don't cock my collapsible, I'll have a P/C in tow." and ect... ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #4 December 29, 2004 QuoteA lackadaisical attitude regarding safety issues is not acceptable, and it speaks of a level of personal responsibility that is incompatible with the demands of this sport. And it is happeing more and more. These people's mistakes from lack of knowledge can kill you. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #5 December 29, 2004 I think a part of the problem is that many new jumpers (and not very new too) do not pack by themselves. Packing is a good way to learn about your gear (except for reserve system) and develop some confidence in doing some simple maintance (changing closing loops, cleaning the cables, flexing the risers near 3-ring, line continuity checks and so on). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites usskydiver 0 #6 December 29, 2004 AMax brings up a good point. As a (your) rigger, I see your gear every 120 days (unless you have a problem). However, the inventor (or at least brought to skydiving) of the 3-ring calls for the monthly maintenance of the 3-ring assembly.. Therefore, as an instructor (and a plea to other instructors), let take a few minutes and explain maintainance. Weather days can be educational....create the curiosity, then satisfy it.... Tim T. Team Paraclete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Punky_Monkey 0 #7 December 30, 2004 Some of the new jumpers do want to know all they can about the gear. I am still a student that is always asking...If something doesn't look right I ask...I ask what if it was like this? What would happen. I know I am still a student but all the knowledge that I gain can one day save my life or save someones. Knowledge is power in this sport and it is that power of knowledge that keeps everyone safe.******* Punky Monkey You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #8 December 30, 2004 Because I'm a rigger, I had someone want to pay me to hook up their 3-rings for them, I was busy and said do it yourself. Their reply was "if I knew how to do it I wouldn't be paying you to do it, besides your the rigger". This was a jumper with 400 to 500 jumps. And no I didn't do it, I told them they were a dumbass and pointed out the stack of manuals in the loft and told them to go learn how to do it, he left and got one of the packers to do it. Was I a dickhead about it?OH WELL, if someone don't want to help themselves why should I help them, I see no reason to do work for the types who throw their money at you to do some simple work that their to lazy to learn to do that may save their ass or a buddy one day, there is no excuse for this type of lack of understanding of ones own gear! `you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cvfd1399 0 #9 December 30, 2004 I agree thank you for doing what you did. If you can stack 3 leggos on top of each other you can assemble a set of three rings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #10 December 30, 2004 Yep, and if you can read at 8th grade level you can learn from the manual too, had this same person walked over and picked up the manual to any sport rig he would have found it, and I would have gladly inspected their work when done and not charged a dime to do so. Damm yuppies think they just pay their way through life. `you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #11 December 30, 2004 >>they dont care to get more knowledge about the way gear is made/maintained/repaired<< It's not entirely their fault. Time was the only way you could BASE jump is after switching your main from your skydiving rig into your BASE rig. Most times this is done in the dark at the DZ so no one would see you. In fact, that is one of the early lessons we learned, don't set up for BASE in the dark. Before that, and in skydiving, you had to understand your gear, Capewells and all that, because it's complicated and could kill you twenty five different ways. (Anyone remember no such thing as the first call being a fifteen minute call?) Yet, this is the here and now of it. The only reason anyone would become deft at the task nowadays is if BASE instructors made their students transfer canopies between rigs ten times in succession with the knowledge they're going to jump one. There will always be a certain amount of new BASE jumpers, probably a majority amount, that will take it upon themselves to learn all there is to learn. And always keep learning. The fact some can go about it without the intensity toward the gear, most see as necessary, is nothing less then testament to our success, for lack of a better word . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #12 December 30, 2004 Quote there is no excuse for this type of lack of understanding of ones own gear! Quote Agree! Had a guy ask me to hook up his R3's once... I did it, showing how... and then UN-did it and watched him try several times..but finally get it. You give a man a fish...he eats one day, but TEACH him to fish...! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #13 December 30, 2004 I don't mind teaching anyone, however if pointing out to someone where to get the info and they find it easier to throw five buck around instead of picking up the book and reading it, then they are not worth my time,fuck um! Step 1, read the manual. Step 2, apply what you learned.(open book is perferred) Step 3. have teacher inspect work.p.s. R-3's is easier then 3-rings, LOL. you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 623 #14 December 30, 2004 I used to care about this issue, now I just want the money. Mind you, the new freeflying club has asked me to give a series of short "Know Your Gear" talks during their evening coaching sessions. Think I'll put together a series of 5 minute talks about closing loops, exercising 3-rings, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #15 December 30, 2004 I used to just want the money, but now I care to work with those who want to learn, for me it's not about the money but I'll still take it.~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyangel2 2 #16 December 30, 2004 I admit, I know the basics about my rig. I'm lucky to have a damn good rigger to catch the things that need to be fixed.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zep 0 #17 December 31, 2004 Maybe it's time to bring in compulsary packing certificates IE:you have a rig you have a certificate to pack it you don't have a certificate you don't jump it That way at least we weed out the people who don't know their A line's from their dick line Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fab 0 #18 January 1, 2005 yippie..more paperwork What is an A-line? _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites op5e 0 #19 January 1, 2005 In australia you have to "have approval of a CI to pack a main parachute for his or her own use or a licensed parachutist" in order to get your A license. If you do not have your A license you need to have a Packer B or above check your pack jobs. Do you not need this in America for your A license? Or is it an issue of the CI not being strict enough? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybill 22 #20 January 2, 2005 Hi 1399, As R.L. Tycer (You ancient Louisiana/Texas jumpers remember him?) said,"Knowledge is Power You Dumb Ass!!" Funny how dumb ass skydivers still persist!! The worst comment anyone can make is,"I don't want to know that!!" O.K.,Fine, be dumb all your life and in skydiving an attitude like that will ensure your life will be short!! No, you don't "have" to get your riggers ticket but having a working understanding of how your rig works and is assembled just might save your life!!! (and/or mine too!!!!) Good question dude, I like the responces. If someone has a question about their gear I'll gladly help what I can. The average Joe or Jane Jumper should at least know how to safety check their rig, do routine maintenance on their 3-rings and be able to connect, disconnect and continuity check a canopy to a rig for starters, oh yes and PACK! Unfortunately lots can't and some (the really dumb ones) don't want to!!!SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites akarunway 1 #21 January 2, 2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yippie..more paperwork What is an A-line? ROFLI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zep 0 #22 January 2, 2005 Quoteyippie..more paperwork What is an A-line? ya A lines connected to ya B line ya B lines connected to ya C line ya C lines conected to ya D line or so the song goes I'm not going to answer that as I know yout taking the Mick.(piss) Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zep 0 #23 January 2, 2005 QuoteIn australia you have to "have approval of a CI to pack a main parachute for his or her own use or a licensed parachutist" in order to get your A license. If you do not have your A license you need to have a Packer B or above check your pack jobs. Do you not need this in America for your A license? Or is it an issue of the CI not being strict enough? When I started sport jumping I started at a military dz. As Like most for the first year I did'nt have my own kit so I used the centers kit (free) each rig had it's own packing card and untill you had a packing certificate for that type of rig you had to call an instructor to sign the packing card for each of the four stages of packing (pro packing had'nt been invented then). this was time consuming and a great incentive to take a packing course an be able to sign off yourself. I think that if some one can go to the trouble to learn how to skydive, They should also go to the trouble of learning the basics of container care and packing If a skydiver can't explain the the different line groups or connect a canopy properly to a container could you call that person a skydiver. I don't think so. Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites homer 0 #24 January 2, 2005 Quote I think a part of the problem is that many new jumpers (and not very new too) do not pack by themselves. I agree that everyone should pack there own gear unless your on a team and doing back to back loads then a packer is in order. I know people who haven't packed there own gear in several hundred jumps. WHY? Because they say it sucks and they would rather pay someone else to do it for them. How are these people ever going to know what is wrong with there gear if all they do is put it on for a jump and then throw it into a corner at home. I myself will never have another person pack my rig again after it resulted in a pilot chute in tow. IT"S MY GEAR AND MY RESPONSIBILITY to know what is going on with it. If I have a question I ask my rigger. In fact I do it every time I make a change of any kind to my equipment even after swapping out mains to make sure all lines are strait and 3rings are assembles properly. This is my security as I haven't screwed anything up. I haven't been able to jump for the last year and my memory is rusty but isn't there a section in the SIM about equipment checks. I know for an A license you need to know how to change a closing loop shouldn't they add the installation of 3rings as well. To not know how to maintain your gear I believe is just as bad as complacency in the air. CSA #699 Muff #3804 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fab 0 #25 January 2, 2005 "I'm not going to answer that as I know yout taking the Mick.(piss) " _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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ChileRelleno 0 #3 December 29, 2004 Knowledge is Power Knowledge is Safety "I" have the "Power" to be "Safe"! This is way too common, lots of skydivers are ignorant of in-depth gear knowledge. I don't mean masterrigger stuff, just more than "If I don't cock my collapsible, I'll have a P/C in tow." and ect... ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #4 December 29, 2004 QuoteA lackadaisical attitude regarding safety issues is not acceptable, and it speaks of a level of personal responsibility that is incompatible with the demands of this sport. And it is happeing more and more. These people's mistakes from lack of knowledge can kill you. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #5 December 29, 2004 I think a part of the problem is that many new jumpers (and not very new too) do not pack by themselves. Packing is a good way to learn about your gear (except for reserve system) and develop some confidence in doing some simple maintance (changing closing loops, cleaning the cables, flexing the risers near 3-ring, line continuity checks and so on). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
usskydiver 0 #6 December 29, 2004 AMax brings up a good point. As a (your) rigger, I see your gear every 120 days (unless you have a problem). However, the inventor (or at least brought to skydiving) of the 3-ring calls for the monthly maintenance of the 3-ring assembly.. Therefore, as an instructor (and a plea to other instructors), let take a few minutes and explain maintainance. Weather days can be educational....create the curiosity, then satisfy it.... Tim T. Team Paraclete Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Punky_Monkey 0 #7 December 30, 2004 Some of the new jumpers do want to know all they can about the gear. I am still a student that is always asking...If something doesn't look right I ask...I ask what if it was like this? What would happen. I know I am still a student but all the knowledge that I gain can one day save my life or save someones. Knowledge is power in this sport and it is that power of knowledge that keeps everyone safe.******* Punky Monkey You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #8 December 30, 2004 Because I'm a rigger, I had someone want to pay me to hook up their 3-rings for them, I was busy and said do it yourself. Their reply was "if I knew how to do it I wouldn't be paying you to do it, besides your the rigger". This was a jumper with 400 to 500 jumps. And no I didn't do it, I told them they were a dumbass and pointed out the stack of manuals in the loft and told them to go learn how to do it, he left and got one of the packers to do it. Was I a dickhead about it?OH WELL, if someone don't want to help themselves why should I help them, I see no reason to do work for the types who throw their money at you to do some simple work that their to lazy to learn to do that may save their ass or a buddy one day, there is no excuse for this type of lack of understanding of ones own gear! `you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #9 December 30, 2004 I agree thank you for doing what you did. If you can stack 3 leggos on top of each other you can assemble a set of three rings Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #10 December 30, 2004 Yep, and if you can read at 8th grade level you can learn from the manual too, had this same person walked over and picked up the manual to any sport rig he would have found it, and I would have gladly inspected their work when done and not charged a dime to do so. Damm yuppies think they just pay their way through life. `you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #11 December 30, 2004 >>they dont care to get more knowledge about the way gear is made/maintained/repaired<< It's not entirely their fault. Time was the only way you could BASE jump is after switching your main from your skydiving rig into your BASE rig. Most times this is done in the dark at the DZ so no one would see you. In fact, that is one of the early lessons we learned, don't set up for BASE in the dark. Before that, and in skydiving, you had to understand your gear, Capewells and all that, because it's complicated and could kill you twenty five different ways. (Anyone remember no such thing as the first call being a fifteen minute call?) Yet, this is the here and now of it. The only reason anyone would become deft at the task nowadays is if BASE instructors made their students transfer canopies between rigs ten times in succession with the knowledge they're going to jump one. There will always be a certain amount of new BASE jumpers, probably a majority amount, that will take it upon themselves to learn all there is to learn. And always keep learning. The fact some can go about it without the intensity toward the gear, most see as necessary, is nothing less then testament to our success, for lack of a better word . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #12 December 30, 2004 Quote there is no excuse for this type of lack of understanding of ones own gear! Quote Agree! Had a guy ask me to hook up his R3's once... I did it, showing how... and then UN-did it and watched him try several times..but finally get it. You give a man a fish...he eats one day, but TEACH him to fish...! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #13 December 30, 2004 I don't mind teaching anyone, however if pointing out to someone where to get the info and they find it easier to throw five buck around instead of picking up the book and reading it, then they are not worth my time,fuck um! Step 1, read the manual. Step 2, apply what you learned.(open book is perferred) Step 3. have teacher inspect work.p.s. R-3's is easier then 3-rings, LOL. you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 623 #14 December 30, 2004 I used to care about this issue, now I just want the money. Mind you, the new freeflying club has asked me to give a series of short "Know Your Gear" talks during their evening coaching sessions. Think I'll put together a series of 5 minute talks about closing loops, exercising 3-rings, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #15 December 30, 2004 I used to just want the money, but now I care to work with those who want to learn, for me it's not about the money but I'll still take it.~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #16 December 30, 2004 I admit, I know the basics about my rig. I'm lucky to have a damn good rigger to catch the things that need to be fixed.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #17 December 31, 2004 Maybe it's time to bring in compulsary packing certificates IE:you have a rig you have a certificate to pack it you don't have a certificate you don't jump it That way at least we weed out the people who don't know their A line's from their dick line Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fab 0 #18 January 1, 2005 yippie..more paperwork What is an A-line? _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
op5e 0 #19 January 1, 2005 In australia you have to "have approval of a CI to pack a main parachute for his or her own use or a licensed parachutist" in order to get your A license. If you do not have your A license you need to have a Packer B or above check your pack jobs. Do you not need this in America for your A license? Or is it an issue of the CI not being strict enough? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 22 #20 January 2, 2005 Hi 1399, As R.L. Tycer (You ancient Louisiana/Texas jumpers remember him?) said,"Knowledge is Power You Dumb Ass!!" Funny how dumb ass skydivers still persist!! The worst comment anyone can make is,"I don't want to know that!!" O.K.,Fine, be dumb all your life and in skydiving an attitude like that will ensure your life will be short!! No, you don't "have" to get your riggers ticket but having a working understanding of how your rig works and is assembled just might save your life!!! (and/or mine too!!!!) Good question dude, I like the responces. If someone has a question about their gear I'll gladly help what I can. The average Joe or Jane Jumper should at least know how to safety check their rig, do routine maintenance on their 3-rings and be able to connect, disconnect and continuity check a canopy to a rig for starters, oh yes and PACK! Unfortunately lots can't and some (the really dumb ones) don't want to!!!SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #21 January 2, 2005 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- yippie..more paperwork What is an A-line? ROFLI hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #22 January 2, 2005 Quoteyippie..more paperwork What is an A-line? ya A lines connected to ya B line ya B lines connected to ya C line ya C lines conected to ya D line or so the song goes I'm not going to answer that as I know yout taking the Mick.(piss) Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zep 0 #23 January 2, 2005 QuoteIn australia you have to "have approval of a CI to pack a main parachute for his or her own use or a licensed parachutist" in order to get your A license. If you do not have your A license you need to have a Packer B or above check your pack jobs. Do you not need this in America for your A license? Or is it an issue of the CI not being strict enough? When I started sport jumping I started at a military dz. As Like most for the first year I did'nt have my own kit so I used the centers kit (free) each rig had it's own packing card and untill you had a packing certificate for that type of rig you had to call an instructor to sign the packing card for each of the four stages of packing (pro packing had'nt been invented then). this was time consuming and a great incentive to take a packing course an be able to sign off yourself. I think that if some one can go to the trouble to learn how to skydive, They should also go to the trouble of learning the basics of container care and packing If a skydiver can't explain the the different line groups or connect a canopy properly to a container could you call that person a skydiver. I don't think so. Gone fishing Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
homer 0 #24 January 2, 2005 Quote I think a part of the problem is that many new jumpers (and not very new too) do not pack by themselves. I agree that everyone should pack there own gear unless your on a team and doing back to back loads then a packer is in order. I know people who haven't packed there own gear in several hundred jumps. WHY? Because they say it sucks and they would rather pay someone else to do it for them. How are these people ever going to know what is wrong with there gear if all they do is put it on for a jump and then throw it into a corner at home. I myself will never have another person pack my rig again after it resulted in a pilot chute in tow. IT"S MY GEAR AND MY RESPONSIBILITY to know what is going on with it. If I have a question I ask my rigger. In fact I do it every time I make a change of any kind to my equipment even after swapping out mains to make sure all lines are strait and 3rings are assembles properly. This is my security as I haven't screwed anything up. I haven't been able to jump for the last year and my memory is rusty but isn't there a section in the SIM about equipment checks. I know for an A license you need to know how to change a closing loop shouldn't they add the installation of 3rings as well. To not know how to maintain your gear I believe is just as bad as complacency in the air. CSA #699 Muff #3804 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fab 0 #25 January 2, 2005 "I'm not going to answer that as I know yout taking the Mick.(piss) " _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
