Stuck toggles - mal or not?

[Hummusx 0]

I'm wondering how many people would cut away if they found that they could not unstow either toggle, assuming that you have an otherwise perfectly functioning canopy. It would be useful when you answer if you could indicate your canopy/experience level (not necessary if your profile is filled out) and whether you have landed your canopy on risers previously.

____________________________________
It’s like selling a million grills all at the same time…with extended warranties. -Hank Hill

[Peej 0]

I had that exact mal at jump number 32 iirc. I had no qualms with chopping it and landing on the reserve. Now i'm much more confident with my canopy skills and provided i was over the DZ i'd land on the risers.

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[BillyVance 34]

I'd say if it was a big docile canopy, you could probably get away with landing on the rear risers. Small heavy loaded canopies? Uh uh, chop it. Edited to add: Just my personal opinion...

We had one guy at my home DZ have a locked toggle on one riser. He had to chop it. Upon inspection it was found he mis-routed the brake line in the velcro-less stow, effectively locking the toggle in place.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[ccowden 0]

I have played around with all kinds of scenerios while under canopy and also land with rear risers on almost every jump, and I know for sure that I would not chop in this situation. That is why it is good to practice up high flying and flaring your canopy in all types of scenerios.

So, no. I would not cut away.

2692 jumps
Velocity 96
WL @ 2.1

[mr2mk1g 10]

Yes its a malfunction... but I wouldn't chop and didn't when I had a very similar problem.

Tension knot left break line. Used half breaks on right toggle to fly back to DZ and landed from half breaks with a flare and PLF.

Happened at about jump 90 something and on my first jump on a 170 after jumping a 190 for 70 jumps (just demoing not changing canopies).

[Pawel 0]

Monday I had stuck toggle right side. Vector 2 with saber 170 1.2 ratio. Tried to get the damn thing out loosening the tension did not help. So since I did not practice landing on rear risers and never landed I chopped. I did think about could I land this canopy, but with my limited experience I did not want to try. But will practice my rear risers on my next jumps above 3k.

[skip 0]

I also chopped from a stuck toggle – it was my 81st jump. I do think I would be more open to the idea of landing it now – that is assuming I was able to play with it and feel comfortable with it before my hard deck.

If only one toggle is stuck and has not released the break line you would have to wrap the other steering line around your hand to counter the turn and then steer/flare with your rears – correct? Would this not also bring you close to your stall point upon flare time?

neilp

[AndyMan 7]

I'm curious of you've ever landed on rear risers with one or both brakes at half...?

It would seem to be much more complicated than simply landing in rears.

The way I see it, even though I can easily land in rears, I'm not so sure about landing in rears with one or both brakes stowed, so the choice becomes cutting the brake line with a hook knife and landing rears, or chopping and landing my reserve.

Chopping lets me get repacked in a few hours, cutting the brake line and landing my main means my main is out a few days at least for repairs.

Given the situation described, I'd chop.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[lowpullin1 0]

I cutaway my Heatwave 135, which i was loading at 1.5, but because of a bad habit i used to have i didn't unstow my brakes till 1300 ft. and of course one didn't unstow. i was trying to make it back from a long spot after filming a tandem and since i was at 1300ft. i didn't have a whole lot of time to mess with it so when in doubt, whip it out.

"It's hard to fly with the eagles when you are surrounded by turkeys."
My Website

[skip 0]

Quote

It would seem to be much more complicated than simply landing in rears.

I guess that is what I was trying to get at. In my situation only one break had fired and the other was not going to unless I forced it (with my knife). I simply could not get the configuration down well enough to feel comfortable landing it – wrapping enough line to make my chute fly straight and continue to fly straight while I flew and flared with my rears.

neilp

[ryoder 1,387]

Already been discussed:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1667881;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 2,400]

Broken brake line on my Nitro - land
Stuck brake on my Nitro - depends on landing area; would chop if not good
Either one on my Pilot - land

[brabzzz 0]

Yeah, this weekend I reached to pop my toggles and only the right one came off.

The left toggle had a line round it (under lotsa tension) and the canopy began its left dive. Nothing drastic, it's only a 170 Saber2 at 1.2 so i leveled out with the right brake and considered options.
Chop? No..not yet....still at 1800ft...plenty of time for that. I put the right one in my mouth and tried a two handed tug on the left...no joy.
Given that it was open, flying and Netheravon has a landing area the size of a small country I did left turns (!) and set up to land in an empty bit of the DZ. I did a few practice turns andf flares up high (using right toggle from its part down position and the left from its stowed/locked position). Landed with a PLF and got my new jumpsuit muddy. Grrr.

In hindsight using the left toggle to yank on for the flare was silly - had it come off suddenly 6 feet up I could have slapped into the deck less than elegantly. On the other hand I did 3 more jumps that day...so I'd done something right, even if i could have done better! Lesson learnt...next time i'll do it differently!

I wouldn't chop anything unless the situation was pretty desperate and options were fast running out. Whose to say the reserve will work?

Stay safe.

---------------------------------------
Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

[katzurki 0]

Quote

...cutting the brake line and landing my main means my main is out a few days at least for repairs.

If you cut it close to the toggle, it can be replaced in all of about 15 minutes, no?

On my first jump on a 190 (Spectre), I had a toggle that wouldn't unstow and stood up the landing. That was around jump #25.

[FreeflyChile 0]

i´ve landed a situation similar 3 times. what has happened is that when i go to unstow a toggle a knot forms (crappy packing...its always been after i´ve packed fast) and the toggle only releases about 1/5 of the way. i´ve just steered with the other toggle and then plf'd on landing.

i jump a sabre 135, and with gear i probably weigh around 185lbs.

[rehmwa 2]

Depends on the canopy. That said rely on your training:

with the risers -
if you can - left turn/right turn/flare - then it's not a malfunction and foolish to cut away

the key words "controllability check"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

If you cut it close to the toggle, it can be replaced in all of about 15 minutes, no?

Cut it close to the toggle and it's still stowed.

You might have made it easier to get it free, or you may have done nothing at all. In this case, I'd ask how much time are you planning to spend trying to fix it?

I supose my only point was simple - the answer that many people are giving - landing with a stuck toggle - is a lot more complicated than people are admitting.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Darryn 0]

I would like to practice this scenario.

looking for anyones opinion. Would it be safe to unstow one brake and find the neutral point with the other toggle and practice flare or leave both stowed,both unstowed?

I think I would want to land something that is going fast then (possibly) something not at all.

[nael 0]

Quote

I supose my only point was simple - the answer that many people are giving - landing with a stuck toggle - is a lot more complicated than people are admitting.

I havent had to land with a stuck toggle yet, but this thread has got me thinking that you are right by saying this.

I dont have a lot of jumps but at my level thought I would probably give landing on rears a go. But then assuming only one toggle is stuck (as I guess happens more than both being stuck), you would need to take a wrap of the unstowed toggle to fly straight. Fine. But then wouldnt attempting to flare on rears with (essentially) your breaks stowed aswell change the stall point of the flare?

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, this really only just occured to me now and I'm just trying to make an informed decision on what I would do in this situation.

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[ryoder 1,387]

Quote

Quote

I supose my only point was simple - the answer that many people are giving - landing with a stuck toggle - is a lot more complicated than people are admitting.

I havent had to land with a stuck toggle yet, but this thread has got me thinking that you are right by saying this.

I dont have a lot of jumps but at my level thought I would probably give landing on rears a go. But then assuming only one toggle is stuck (as I guess happens more than both being stuck), you would need to take a wrap of the unstowed toggle to fly straight. Fine. But then wouldnt attempting to flare on rears with (essentially) your breaks stowed aswell change the stall point of the flare?

Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, this really only just occured to me now and I'm just trying to make an informed decision on what I would do in this situation.

With the brakes stowed, it will require less riser deflection to stall the canopy.

Because you are flying at half brakes, you won't have as much flare power as usual. But because you are flying at half brakes, you won't need as much flare power.

If you watch the landing area long enough, you will occasionally see jumpers on moderately loaded canopies (WL <= 1.1) land w/o any flare at all. If your forward speed is mostly canceled out by the wind speed you can do this. I have seen a light tandem master with a small passenger do this in a 15 mph wind.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[ccowden 0]

Quote

I'm curious of you've ever landed on rear risers with one or both brakes at half...?

It would seem to be much more complicated than simply landing in rears.

Actually landed, no. But I have played around with the situation and felt what it did in turns and in a flare. I am sure it would be more touchy, but I am quite positive that I could get myself to the ground safely in this situation from what I experienced in practicing. THAT is why I would not chop. I am not saying it is the choice for everyone, but that wasn't the question.

There is nothing guarenteed about a reserve either. You could just as easily end up under a worse malfuntion with your reserve. The way I look at it is, if I can get myself to the ground safely under what I have, then I am keeping it.

[Kris 0]

I've landed my Stiletto loaded at 1.4:1 on rears before and would do so again, even with the brakes stowed.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Freefly69 0]

I also used to have the bad practice of unstowing the brakes low. Rick Hustler, on many occasions would unstow the brakes with just enough altitude for his canopy to reach full flight before he flared and untucked his landing gear.

After unstowing my brakes at about 1200' It felt funny. It was becasue my right toggle came completely undone. Once your brakeline is free, there is no reaching it. It flies right behind your tail. I decided not to chop. It was the first time I had landed on Rears. This was Way before it was the latest and greatest technique. Winds were 8-10 which really helped. 180Lbs out the door under 130 sq Zpo (sabre clone) had a few hundred jumps at the time.

Practice up high. Do hop n' Hooks from 10K
Know your canopy


Long Swoops!

Expect Nothing. Be Ready For Anything!

[NWPoul 1]

If only one toggle is locked is it reasonable to try to stowing other toggle back and get your canopy in simmetrical 1/2 brakes configuration? (it seems this - what I should try to in my next jump:))

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[mr2mk1g 10]

quicker to take a wrap of the break line