Wrong or Right Call?

[billvon 2,426]

>It is a very viable option. Look at the line-over mod for BASE. Toss
>the steering lines and fly the rear risers. Works fine.

Warning - BASE canopies are NOT like skydiving canopies! I watched two separate canopies land people very hard in the water during Bridge Day 1997, because the jumpers put a line-release mod on their canopies then inadvertantly let go of their toggles (no malfunction.) The tails of their canopies folded up and dropped them pretty hard. Fortunately they both landed in the river. I don't know what kind they were, other than one was a large 7-cell and one was a smaller one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Warning - BASE canopies are NOT like skydiving canopies! I watched two separate canopies land people very hard in the water during Bridge Day 1997, because the jumpers put a line-release mod on their canopies then inadvertantly let go of their toggles (no malfunction.) The tails of their canopies folded up and dropped them pretty hard. Fortunately they both landed in the river. I don't know what kind they were, other than one was a large 7-cell and one was a smaller one.

Thanks Bill, very true. Some canopies will react that way.

Derek

[mjosparky 3]

Jim,

There was only one person close enough to the problem to make an informed decision on what to do. I am not sure what I would do, I wasn’t there. Sounds to me like you kept yourself updated as to altitude and canopy condition and walked away. That puts you way ahead of some that were landing a canopy in perfect condition.

Sparky

Effective packing is all about the little detail.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Peej 0]

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Sounds like you did a good job dealing with a tough situation. Im not saying what you did was wrong, but I would have chopped. My decision to chop in the situation you were in comes from A) low jump numbers and B) an ingrained predetermined decision that if I can't fly it in the air without stress, I probably won't land it without breaking myself. You have a ton more experience than I do so maybe in the future my decision will mirror yours but at this point, Im buyin a rigger a bottle

Seconded. At my experience level i'd have got rid of it.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[kallend 1,644]

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Ah the old hook knife!

Unfortunately in the chain of events, I removed it from my chest strap because I carried the rig on board the aircraft when I left Houston.

Of course, I failed to put it back on when I got to Eloy starting the whole chain of events.

You too with hook knife at the airport! It took me a month or so before I remembered to put mine back. Fortunately its absence did not initiate a malfunction in my case.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[TomAiello 25]

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It is a very viable option. Look at the line-over mod for BASE. Toss the steering lines and fly the rear risers. Works fine.

Warning - BASE canopies are NOT like skydiving canopies! I watched two separate canopies land people very hard in the water during Bridge Day 1997, because the jumpers put a line-release mod on their canopies then inadvertantly let go of their toggles (no malfunction.) The tails of their canopies folded up and dropped them pretty hard. Fortunately they both landed in the river.

Even on a BASE canopy, the procedure I teach when ditching a toggle is to keep the other one in hand to minimize tail deflection when flaring with (both) rear risers.

I have landed BASE canopies on rear risers with both toggles in hand, one toggle in hand and the other trailing, and no toggles. On those canopies (265+ square foot 7 cells) the difference between those three states was much less than I had expected. It was noticeable, but only just.

I have no idea how this applies to skydiving canopies. Them little zippy high performance postage stamps scare me.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Praetorian 1]

Um ... you have me scared here, I thought I knew my main pretty well.. when my breaks are unstowed, full flight the slack in the lines means the tail of the chute is holding its shape with no tension on the break lines... would the main fly differently if the break lines were cut insted of with no tension? I'm not talking c or d lines here?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[billvon 2,426]

>the slack in the lines means the tail of the chute is holding its
>shape with no tension on the break lines...

Well, there is never really 'no tension on the brake lines.' If they are bowed, it means the only tension is that supplied by the air, which is a few pounds pulling backwards (translates to downwards due to the way the lines are attached.) If the lines are 'freed' they are now pulling only backwards, not downwards. Some canopies do have trouble with this; their tails 'flip up.' This has the opposite effect as a flare.

[joebud321 0]

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Ah the old hook knife!

Unfortunately in the chain of events, I removed it from my chest strap because I carried the rig on board the aircraft when I left Houston.

Of course, I failed to put it back on when I got to Eloy starting the whole chain of events.

You too with hook knife at the airport! It took me a month or so before I remembered to put mine back. Fortunately its absence did not initiate a malfunction in my case.

dont you guys check that someone has a hook knive on a a gear check????......we arnt aloud on a plain without one!.....and im very happy thats the case

[mattjw916 2]

Hook knives are not "required" by the USPA. I think most people would either drop it, poke themselves in the eye, or cut the wrong lines most of the time anyway.

There's a H U G E thread about hook knife usage started by Ron I think somewhere around here.

Personally, I probably wouldn't even think about cutting lines on my main, my reserve OTOH, I'd cut anything I thought I needed to in order to make it land safely.

I carry a hook knife, never even thought about reaching for it though...

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[artistcalledian 0]

why are you supposed to carry a hook knife? what are they for?

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[JohnRich 4]

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What would I have done? I would not attempt to land a main canopy with a brake line knotted to the point of it being 16 inches shorter. I would first try to cut the brake line with my hook-knive and land on rear risers, and if I couldn't manage to get it cut, I'd cuttaway and pull my reserve.

I have absolutely no doubt that I'm about to be flamed to Hades.

Well, a lot of posts have been made since you made this, and no one has set you alight yet.

I think there is a big difference between our personal opinions about what we would do, and what the person in question should have done. That's because we all jump different canopies, have different experience levels, have different landing zones, and so on. What's right for one person might be wrong for another. So none of us can really properly judge, because gemini was the only one that knew the exact circumstances; with his canopy, how it handled, its wingloading, his comfort with controllability, the size of his landing area, etc. All those factors go into the decision about what is "right".

He handled it and walked away, so I call that right for him.

[AndyMan 7]

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He handled it and walked away, so I call that right for him.

He asked for opinion. Was he right or wrong?

To me, that means: "did I stack the odds in my favor and it worked", or "did I stack the odds against me, and I got lucky?"

I sure as hell know that I've got plenty to learn in this sport, and I presume the same is true of gemini, and you, and everyone else.

Since he asked, I answered. I think Gemini put the odds against him, when he could've put them in his favor. This isn't something I say lightly, but I know that it's the kind of answer that he's looking for - that's why he asked.

It helps nobody for everyone to chime in "you walked away, you did the right thing". Giving that answer kills a perfectly good learning opportunity. We all can learn, especially from the mistakes we walk away from.

I would prefer that people tell my why it isn't a mistake, than to tell me I'm not supposed to point it out.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[rehmwa 2]

Good job Jim. With a more radical canopy, I'd have likely cut away, but with a Sabre2 and a good control check no problem. Maybe I'd have held the good line in my teeth to let both hands work the toggle-tangle.....

Actually, my very first cutaway was similar, except the fly straight point was much closer to stall, so I had to cut away. My only round jump on that reserve.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[The111 0]

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It helps nobody for everyone to chime in "you walked away, you did the right thing".

True. In my short time in the sport, I have already done a few stupid things that I got lucky and walked away from.

Not commenting on this specific instance, but on the trend of the "walk away = ok" style responses.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[Andy9o8 0]

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why are you supposed to carry a hook knife? what are they for?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1938647#1938647

[Eule 0]

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Unfortunately in the chain of events, I removed [the hook knife] from
my chest strap because I carried the rig on board the aircraft when I left
Houston.

Of course, I failed to put it back on when I got to Eloy starting the whole
chain of events.

You too with hook knife at the airport! It took me a month or so before
I remembered to put mine back.

Sometimes parked airplanes will have a lot of covers or safety latches
with big red "REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT" ribbons hanging from them.
Maybe this calls for an "INSTALL BEFORE FLIGHT" ribbon? Something
like tying a pull-up cord (preferably brightly colored) around the hook
knife pouch or the strap where it was when you take the knife out or
off. Or shoving a folded-up dollar bill in the pouch with one end
sticking out, or tie one of those freebie paper luggage tags around it,
or whatever. Basically, something that's conspicuous and easy to do
with available materials when you're wandering up to the check-in
desk at the airport and suddenly remember you have to take the
knife off. Hopefully, when you get where you are going, somebody
(maybe even you) will notice the cord or the money or the tag and
ask, "why is that there?"

The above might be a bad idea for some reason I haven't thought
of. It can also probably be argued that a gear check would prevent
leaving the hook knife off. On the other hand, if someone else is
giving you a gear check, a hook knife may not be as "essential" in
their eyes - some people have them, some people don't. If I (as
a n00b) was doing a gear check on a more experienced jumper, "you
don't have a hook knife" would be a much lower priority than "where
the hell is your reserve handle?" or "your left 3-ring is hooked up
wrong".

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[darkwing 4]

I've been thinking about this since you first posted. After much thought I think you did the wrong thing. I have seen several times cases where a seemingly static situation deteriorated. In your case it could have happened a couple of ways. As one person mentioned, the knot could have cleared at flare time. Also, being that deep means your canopy was MUCH more susceptible to a stall induced by turbulence from any source--wake turbulence from other canopies, thermals, gusts...

I am very glad you came out OK, but I think you erred. I am willing to debate the philosophy that "if you walked away from it you did the right thing."

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[GravityGirl 0]

I was taught to only toss one brake line (the one with the line over ) and fly one brake line and one rear riser.

I saw a jumper at bridge day toss both, and luckily he landed in water. It was U G L Y.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I was taught to only toss one brake line (the one with the line over Wink) and fly one brake line and one rear riser.

I saw a jumper at bridge day toss both, and luckily he landed in water. It was U G L Y.

I think it depends on the canopy. I've tossed them on a Fury 220 and didn't have a problem, but like you said, it can cause a problem on other canopies. I wonder what the difference is?

Derek

[GravityGirl 0]

Mabye trim? Maybe spacing between line attachments? I do know, that I DON'T want to be the test dummy on this one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[bob.dino 0]

Give me a tertiary and I'll do it.

[gemini 0]

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the knot could have cleared at flare time

There was no way the knot was going to clear where it was and how it was twisted around the toggle, but your point (and those similarly made by others) is valid and I worried about it prior to seeing how the knot was made.

Blue skies,

Jim

[skylord 1]

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why are you supposed to carry a hook knife? what are they for?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1938647#1938647

That was funny! (But is it true?)

Bob
FGF-1

Bob Marks

"-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman

[JohnRich 4]

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He handled it and walked away, so I call that right for him.

He asked for opinion. Was he right or wrong?

To me, that means: "did I stack the odds in my favor and it worked", or "did I stack the odds against me, and I got lucky?"

I sure as hell know that I've got plenty to learn in this sport, and I presume the same is true of gemini, and you, and everyone else.

Since he asked, I answered. I think Gemini put the odds against him, when he could've put them in his favor. This isn't something I say lightly, but I know that it's the kind of answer that he's looking for - that's why he asked.

It helps nobody for everyone to chime in "you walked away, you did the right thing". Giving that answer kills a perfectly good learning opportunity. We all can learn, especially from the mistakes we walk away from.

I would prefer that people tell my why it isn't a mistake, than to tell me I'm not supposed to point it out.

Down boy! Down!

Chill out. I simply offered an opinion. I wasn't telling anyone else that they couldn't post different opinions, and I'm not trying to stifle the learning experience. Save the acrimony for the gun threads.

I think gemini made his decisions wisely and was rewarded with a decent landing. I see nothing about that to be critical.

And as an example of why we shouldn't second-guess the person who was there, is the post about how the knot could have come loose at flare time. Gemini had thought of that, and decided that the knot was secure enough that slippage wasn't going to happen. So we're here with second-hand speculation, while he was in the air with first-hand observation. He made the right decisions. Alternative decisions could have also been made, which were also correct. But as it is, he did great. So I see nothing to be critical about. Your mileage may vary.