Why do some countries....

[Scoop 0]

I dont think you could get device dependancy from an AAD. Things like audibles yes. If you were relying on your AAD to initiate your deployment youd either be dead, grounded or damn rich to afford to keep having things replaced and repacked.

I must admit the cost is a real bummer when im collecting my own gear, I was considering once on B licence and the one i bought has expired not bothering to replace it, but then I want to jump abroad so I guess I have to play the game

Edited to add: I do appreciate the safety benefits but Id still jump without one if neccesary (ie was in for service)

[bob.dino 0]

No, but jumpers with more experience might reasonably be assumed to be able to make the decision for themselves. Novice jumpers don't know what they don't know.

[Remster 24]

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I dont think you could get device dependancy from an AAD.

Lots of people will not jump at all without an AAD. If thats not being device dependent, I dont know what is.

Remster

[Elisha 1]

Anyone know if these places (e.g. San Diego, Empuria, France, etc.) that require AADs accept Vigils? I'm thinking of buying one when my CYPRES expires in about 6 mos.

[piisfish 135]

Empuria and France are "Vigil Friendly".. They will also let you jump with an FXC, but not freefly with it...

Quite sure in some places they'll let you jump with a KaP3

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Trae 1]

There is a movement pushing for compulsory AAD use for ALL skydivers. .. no matter how experienced.

The AAD manufacturers are not particularly concerned about this movement.

It does have worrying consequences as increased AAD use appears to have decreased certain safety consciousness in other areas.
eg Some people think strapping on an AAD automatically makes them a safe skydiver.
eg2 some people wouldn't skydive without one.

Funny how the regulators, a lot of them old men who never were very good at the sport , have dictated some of the AAd rules.

Allowing for the lowest common denominator eg some-one unconscious or dim-witted who needs an AAD and then applying it to everyone is a questionable safety technique.

[Mike111 0]

Very fair point... personallly i don't mind if a DZo wants AAD's to be worn by everyone - his business so he decides.

But organisations IMHO shouldnt have to decide things like that.... not their business (apart from public opinion i guess)

[TrickyDicky 0]

Technically (although not legally), you dont need to wear a reserve. So would you question someone now for not jumping without one (ignoring BASE).
If you were careful about packing, no reserve needed. Then you start wearing a reserve, your packing gets sloppier. But I think most people think wearing a Reserve is a good thing, whether you're the best packer in the world or not.

I dont see the problem with people saying "I wont jump without an AAD". I dont quite see the device dependancy. Why are people so annoyed with it? I really think the arguments about not being altitude aware are anythink like as heavy as losing altitude awareness.

I know 2 guys doing head down. Lost altidude awarenes and both had 2 out. One guy even filled his trousers. I dont think he remembered he had an AAD.

But think. If you wear an AAD when was the last time you thought, while having a mal "Well, Ive got an AAD, so I wont bother getting my reserve out myself". We all fuck up from time to time, its only human, so why not just have it for that fuck up?

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[rasmack 0]

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Very fair point... personallly i don't mind if a DZo wants AAD's to be worn by everyone - his business so he decides.

But organisations IMHO shouldnt have to decide things like that.... not their business (apart from public opinion i guess)

Skydiving is not a commercial activity everywhere. Skydiving in Denmark consists of skydiving clubs and a national assocation. We, the members appoint our representatives. They put down a framework for us to work in. Your "his business" argument really only holds water where there is a "business" that "belongs" to someone.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Technically (although not legally), you dont need to wear a reserve. So would you question someone now for not jumping without one (ignoring BASE).

Thats wrong. In BASE they dont jump without reserve, they do you without main. :)

[Trae 1]

in reply to "But think. If you wear an AAD when was the last time you thought, while having a mal "Well, Ive got an AAD, so I wont bother getting my reserve out myself". We all fuck up from time to time, its only human, so why not just have it for that fuck up? "
.......................

AAd's have their place. if you feel better with one that's OK by me.
I just don't appreciate being told I HAVE to have one especially when those doing the telling aren't aware of how we got on when they weren't common.

For tandems and student training they seem like a very good way to cover yourself and do the best thing by your passenger or student.

Somehow it seems that people with aad's are somewhat less safety conscious & aware of safety issues in areas other than AAD use. .. such as risk management and reduction. .

eg The need for a hard hat before AAD's became common place indicated that you were a novice skydiver (barring some exceptions ) who needed to get more experience before you could jump without a crash dome.

Have a look at some of the older pre cypres days photos/videos and you'll notice a distinct lack of hard hats on experienced skydivers. The early Sky Calls books are one place to look. People made up for no AAD's by being more skillful and more safety conscious. as well as being more aware of their sky buddies true abilities.

The loss of this trend and other safety related tendencies eg allowing novice to fly HP canopies, is also concerning .

Now much more crash and bash goes on and is apparently acceptable because we're wearing AAD's.

The price of progress.

[mr2mk1g 10]

AAD requirements have been revised twice recently in the UK. Firstly requiring them on demo jumps and secondly requiring them for A licensed jumpers.

I am aware that both of these changes were primarily driven by insurance concerns. Demo jumps are an area of the sport which offers the greatest opportunity for interaction between jumpers and the public - as such they entail increased liability exposure for the BPA insurance into which we all pay and from which we all benefit.

The level of liability exposure is directly related to the cost of insurance. If you can do something to limit or reduce that level you have a shot at reducing or mitigating any increase in the cost of insurance. Insurance costs have been a very hot topic in the UK over the past few years.

A-licensed jumpers can also be, rightly or wrongly, sold to insurance companies as being those who are most likely to benefit from the assistance of an AAD. As such, making AAD use mandatory for these individuals can be a bargaining tool with insurers again mitigating any costs increase.

Another factor in the BPA's decision was that virtually all A-license skydivers used an AAD anyway. As such they felt the negative impact of the requirement would only be felt by a very few people, while the positive impact of reduced insurance costs which we all pay would be felt by the entire skydiving community.

While these are the considerations within the BPA only, the same mechanisms may well be at work in many other countries. Hurling 200lb sacks of meat at people's houses is a dangerous business - the cost of third party insurance can be a big factor in the regulations adopted by national bodies, especially where the national body has a hand in the provision of that insurance.

[riggerrob 558]

AADs have been mandatory at Quebec DZs for several years now, and are steadily increasing in popularity at other Canadian DZs.
For a take on the next step in making AADs mandatory in Canada, watch the CSPA Annual General Meeting in March, in Niagara.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Lots of people will not jump at all without an AAD. If thats not being device dependent, I dont know what is.

In my opinion refusing to ever jump w/o an AAD is not, in and of itself, a sign of device dependancy. It might be overly paranoid, but that's about it.

I personally choose to have an AAD, audible and visual alti, and full-face helmet on every jump. I have occasionally done without one of these elements, including AAD... I'm not as comfortable, but I'll do it if necessary (borrowing a rig with no AAD to test fly a canopy, or audible batteries are dead... something like that).

Am I "dependant" on my AAD? No! Why not? Because I don't expect it to pull for me unless I can't. If my cypres ever fires when I'm concious, I'll be having a long self-evaluation about just what the hell I was doing that low, because obviously I did something very stupid. I'd rather that then be dead, though. Even if it were to fire when I'm incapacitated somehow, there will be some serious reflection because either 1) I fucked up real bad or 2) someone else did. Again, I'd rather be alive to make that reflection.

If I had posted the paragraph above, but instead said I would not ever jump w/o an AAD under any circumstances, would it magically make me dependant on it?

There are many people who are depandant on their AAD (sadly), but just refusing to jump without one doesn't put you in that group. Otherwise, BASE jumpers could all call us "device dependant" on our reserves, which we expect to save our ass if we mess up on our main. I wouldn't call myself dependant on my reserve, but it sure as hell was nice to have it around when I needed it.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[lurch 0]

"To get federal tax money. New Hampshire is the only state in the union that has had the spine to keep the seatbelt a personal choice.

Live free or die."

AMEN! (among many reasons why I don't want to live anywhere else... the fading illusion of freedom still looks most convincing, here. )

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[Mike111 0]

Very fair point.

it always comes down to money.

I should have thought of that

[btucker 0]

I can understand for insurance and PR reasons why a governing body/DZ would mandate AADs. To the layman, no skydiver will die if they jump with an AAD. We of course know that isn’t always the case – CRW, swooping, demos* it can be more risky to jump with the darn thing.

When it's a rule that you must jump with an AAD. An issue which hasn't been solved is what you do for the 10+ weeks it takes to get the thing serviced { my last service was 11 }. Not jumping or jumping borrowed gear can be more risky. If you can afford it, one is forced to buy another AAD and then sell the one returned from service. Which is what I did.

I’ve done about 50jumps without an AAD and was only knocked out once - as I whited out I threw my pilot chute. I bought an AAD for that rig the next day ;-)


* landing height different from take-off height (I'd phuck it up for sure).

Blue Dreams Benno

[Mike111 0]

i see your point amd am glad you are ok.

I remember reading a while back that skydiving attratcs certain people... and that people will be attracted to the sport because they will do everything they can to do it well.

Thus for PR reasomns, then maybe people who are device dependant are in the wrong sport? And if it is to attratc those "who like it safe" then maybe it is a better thing to not make them mandatory and attract those that can handle any situation thrown at them because they know the risks, and not cos "i have an AAD so i will be fine".

So thats for the PR.

But then again AAD's do save lives.

I dunno, maybe making a rule saying that one must make 5 jumps without an AAD, would help overcome that, as jumpers would put more focus on the proceddures and lkesson the AAD.

Im not having ago at all at anyone who jumps with an AAd, but ive heard this before from experienced skydivers that if you can;t jump without an AAD, dont jump - im only a student!

[skykittykat 0]

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I don't believe skydiving is entirely self-regulated in Great Britain (except by the BPA). In the US it's more self-regulated, but we still have the Federal Aviation Regulations. The BSRs of the United States Parachute Association are supposed to be treated as requirements by USPA member dropzones.

Could it be that only BPA dropzones exist in Great Britain?

Apologies in advance for anything I may say that has already been said, but I could not be a++ed to trawl through the posts.....

Regarding the BPA dropzones - I am not sure it is possible for a dz to operate without being part of the BPA as the BPA is regulated by the Aviation Authority of the UK (don't know the abbreviation, but would hazzard a guess at CAA...).

The BPA does not promote self-regulation, even within it's jumpers and I can understand that mentality - CURRENCY - skydivers within the UK are not generally as current as those skydivers living in areas with good weather, big planes (eg Otters, Skyvans, etc) and the talent of skydivers on the dz.

Having spent my first 3 years of skydiving in the UK and the past 2 1/2 in the States I do see the pros and cons of both USPA and the BPA.

Eg, now that I have skydived here in the US for a while, I find the whole idea of someone touching my gear for a gear check and signing me off to jump is something I don't like or want them to do. I take FULL responsibility for my putting my gear on and having it checked before boarding the plane and I don't want anyone touching it once it is on my body.

OK, I have the experience, but in the UK, so long as you have someone to sign you off (regardless of your A,B,C ratings) there is no need to take responsibility for yourself - someone will point out a problem with your gear.

I do understand the flight line checks that the BPA insists on, but I think that it should only be for students up until Cat 8. I am not comfortable signing my name against someone's else's name to say I had checked their gear and then they go out and go in because maybe in the plane they re-adjusted their chest strap and did not do it up properly causing them to fall out of their harness.

How do I prove that when I checked them, their chest strap was done up properly????

Once you have an A licence, you are responsible for yourself.....

The whole question of AAD's - you may be required to jump with one, but how is a dz meant to regulate if that AAD (eg, Cypres/Vigil) is turned on or not?

Also, many swoopers choose not to jump with an AAD if they are doing a hop'n'pop and swooping in as the instruction manuals state that their AAD's could fire under high performance canopy flying.....

Just a few thoughts.
Liz

[TrickyDicky 0]

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I do understand the flight line checks that the BPA insists on, but I think that it should only be for students up until Cat 8. I am not comfortable signing my name against someone's else's name to say I had checked their gear and then they go out and go in because maybe in the plane they re-adjusted their chest strap and did not do it up properly causing them to fall out of their harness.

There is no actual requirement to "sign" or record the fact a check has been done by or for anyone A licence and above. All students must be checked by an instructor and signed for.

It is the responsibility of the JM to ensure everyone has been checked. Some DZs do this by having everyone signed for, but I know of at least 2 (big) DZs that dont use signatures.

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