Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid

[Skydawg 0]

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me flying off a 3000 ft + terminal wall in Norway in my wingsuit skydiving rig.

that I, regardless of BASE experience, don't see why it would be a problem to anyone for me to jump off that rock, fly for 1000 feet vertical, then dump at 2000agl.

I'm sorry but I don't think you realise why BASE jumping your wingsuit skydiving rig is a bad idea. I'm sure you have a vast amount of wingsuit experience, I'm not disputing that. But the BASE environment is different to skydiving. In a BASE jump the exit is critical, and has a direct correlation to stability in the first 3 to 4 seconds of the jump. Just have a look at Nick's list to see how many fatalities have been stability related.

It's the bit between jumping off the rock and flying that will catch a non-BASE jumper out, those 3 to 4 seconds before the suit starts to fly. During this time you have to be stable. If you go unstable (head down, on your back whatever), normally because of a bad exit, then the wingsuit restricts your physical movement making it harder to recover. If you do recover before hitting the wall, then you're probably very close to the wall with very few outs (are you facing the wall? Do you have enough altitude to clear the talus/ledge/outcrop? etc.), so you'll probably have to dump immediately, this is where the skydiving gear will kill you... Sail slider (longer distance to open), small canopy / higher wing loading (fly's faster into the wall), greater opening surge (no DBS), no vents (canopy may not stay inflated during a wall strike), A container with no "dynamic corners" or open corners (promotes off-headings) etc. If you have an off-heading towards the wall, The wingsuit prevents you from controlling your canopy immediately after opening. (have a look at #84 on Nick's list)

If you do everything right, fly away from the wall and open at 2000 agl, there's still the fact that typically a BASE LZ is smaller, rockier etc. Probably not a worry for some one of your experience, but still worth considering.

So while, it's possible to do a BASE jump off a terminal wall with your wingsuit skydiving rig, there's a good chance you'll die :)

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a RANK AMATEUR wingsuit BASE guy who zoo'ed a poised exit out of a Caravan then promply flew himself into a bridge. Give me a break.

Dude, that was below the belt.

[mjosparky 3]

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Just have a look at Nick's list to see how many fatalities have been stability related.

Where would I go to find "Nick's list"?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[NickDG 23]

http://www.basefatalities.info/

NickD
BASE 194

[mjosparky 3]

Thanks Nick.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[TVPB 0]

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FWIW
I have decided that I have made an ass of myself and should stay out of this. Gimme another decade in the sport and a few REAL achievements and maybe I'll have some useful input, but for now, I should know better.
Might be asking you for lessons in BASE if I ever meet you, though...
-B
Flight test rule #7: A packjob tuned for wingsuits does not open gently when used for RW...

Don't apologise and you are not an ass. It is very hounourable that you are defending a mate/idol and a person you have respect for. The reality is that I would learn heaps from Skymonkey in various aspects of the sport (i.e wingsuiting). He is a hell of a lot more current than I am. He would know a lot more about modern wingsuiting (i.e. last few years) than I do. He is more than likely more skilled than I am too.

You are allowed to have opinions. And it is certain that I can learn things from you as much as you could learn from me. The great Chinese Philosopher Confucious had a saying: "The man who cannot learn from a fool, is a bigger fool himself". I twist that a bit and say: "The man who cannot learn from a beginner, is an egotistical wanker". But that's just me - I can be a bit of a w sometimes too!!!!!

All I want is for you / Skymonkey / every person that puts on a parachute to be open minded, willing to learn, accept that you have strengths and weaknesses, take small steps up that mountain of skill and knowledge, etc. This will make you an accomplished, successful, respected, and most importantly, surviving jumper. And that means any parachute off or out of anything. Both sports deserve the same level of respect. The only difference is that BASE has a much lower margin for error.

Good luck with it all. Go get that experience.
p.s. BASE lessons. I will put you onto more relevant people. Do all the prerequisites in skydiving. They are fun and they will teach you lots about BASE. Get an excellent mentor, do things in the right sequence, etc, and you will live a long prosperous jumping life.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[Lindercles 0]

Wow, how ironic is it that a guy just jumped a BASE rig out of a balloon on national television?

[skinnyshrek 0]

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Wow, how ironic is it that a guy just jumped a BASE rig out of a balloon on national television?

Did the ground crew go running to the FAA

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[Lindercles 0]

Well, since it happened in Germany there's probably not much the FAA could do, but it's still ironically apropos.

[marks 0]

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Wow, how ironic is it that a guy just jumped a BASE rig out of a balloon on national television?

ya, I saw that. it was in another country also.

[mjosparky 3]

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Wow, how ironic is it that a guy just jumped a BASE rig out of a balloon on national television?

ya, I saw that. it was in another country also.

Don't break his bubble!

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[pchapman 261]

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Well, since it happened in Germany there's probably not much the FAA could do, but it's still ironically apropos.

Well, the US has gone into Germany before to enforce the rule of law. But what with the cost of Afghanistan & Iraq, the US treasury & armed forces might be stretched a bit thin. Now, back to the thread...

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid, and harms our sport.
I'm putting this in General Skydiving for a reason, and that is to educate skydivers who may not know this important fact. "
.................................................................

Mmmm....... yep this looks like common sense in the skydiving world.
However .. gear design differences give the BASE gear some serious advantages over a skydiving reserve.

A BASE jumper ( terminal opening ) is in a similar situation to a skydivier that has had a high speed mal. They are both relying on one parachute for their next beer.

It could be argued that the BASE rig is safer in this situation given its specific design advantages over a skydiving reserve.

Skydivers rely heavily on that one last parachute too but perhaps with more faith ( in their rigger ). A BASE jumper relies on their own usually meticulous packjob.



My question is.... is it any less reasonable to rely on a well packed canopy as a skydiving reserve or as your only canopy on a BASE jump.?

Skydivers rely very similarly on that ONE last canopy.

[peek 20]

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My question is.... is it any less reasonable to rely on a well packed canopy as a skydiving reserve or as your only canopy on a BASE jump.?.

I think they are basically as reliable, and I understand all your points. It's been a long thread, so you may not have caught all my comments, but it was something to the effect of, "It is a skydive (being from a balloon), so why not go higher and use a skydiving rig with 2 parachutes." Also my concern about the legality of it was that it could affect skydiving or the WFFC.

BASE jumping is a great sport, but mixing it with skydiving would seem to eventually cause problems I don't think either sport wants.

Thanks for the comments.

[marks 0]

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My question is.... is it any less reasonable to rely on a well packed canopy as a skydiving reserve or as your only canopy on a BASE jump.?.

I think they are basically as reliable, and I understand all your points. It's been a long thread, so you may not have caught all my comments, but it was something to the effect of, "It is a skydive (being from a balloon), so why not go higher and use a skydiving rig with 2 parachutes." Also my concern about the legality of it was that it could affect skydiving or the WFFC.

BASE jumping is a great sport, but mixing it with skydiving would seem to eventually cause problems I don't think either sport wants.

Thanks for the comments.

that is a great summary. thanks.

[HydroGuy 0]

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that is a great summary. thanks

No, a B licensed or higher skydiver (B license is required for WFFC is it not?) at a skydiving convention attempted to jump out of an aeriel vehicle with non tso'd gear and got narc'd to the FAA for something he didn't even do by another skydiver...that's a better summary.

The whole BASE arguement was simply people's latent issues coming to the surface.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[marks 0]

sure, whatever. and what is coming to the surface with you? a little angry are we?

ager will consume you.. try understanding.

jeese, i should take my own advice sometimes..

[mjosparky 3]

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attempted to jump out of an aeriel vehicle with non tso'd gear and got narc'd to the FAA

And where do you draw the line? Does anything go? In any society there has to be limits on behavior. What are yours?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[TomAiello 25]

I believe HydroGuy's point was that there was no BASE jumping involved in this discussion.

A skydiver made a decision about his skydive, and the gear he wanted to use for that skydive, at a skydiving gathering.

Arguments about BASE jumpers, BASE jumpers attitudes, etc, are simply not relevant to the underlying facts of the situation, because there is no BASE jumping in the original fact pattern.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[mjosparky 3]

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I believe HydroGuy's point was that there was no BASE jumping involved in this discussion.

I believe I was addressing his point. I made no reference to BASE, you did.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,400]

>Arguments about BASE jumpers, BASE jumpers attitudes, etc, are
>simply not relevant to the underlying facts of the situation, because there
>is no BASE jumping in the original fact pattern.

Well, to be fair, if an organizer stopped a dangerously drunk person from making a skydive, they would not have been skydiving while drunk. But it would still be a skydiving issue, and it still would have concerned alcohol. Claiming that it had nothing at all to do with skydiving would distract from the issue (which might be an important one to discuss.)

If there's one thing to be learned from this, it's that you can't take legally take BASE gear out of aircraft, even if the aircraft is a free balloon - and that's what might have happened in this case.

[peek 20]

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No, a B licensed or higher skydiver (B license is required for WFFC is it not?)

Actually no. The WFFC web site lists the requirements to be wristbanded as a "skydiver" on the "Gear and Jumper Requirements" page.

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... at a skydiving convention attempted to jump out of an aeriel vehicle with non tso'd gear and got

admonished by 2 people who know better and wish that people would not do things that jepardize skydiving, the WFFC, and baloon jumping at the WFFC.

[wwarped 0]

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attempted to jump out of an aeriel vehicle with non tso'd gear and got narc'd to the FAA

And where do you draw the line? Does anything go? In any society there has to be limits on behavior. What are yours?

the question of acceptable limits is appropriate.
remember, GP and the FAA inspector did NOT prevent a FAR violation. the skydiver's lack of readiness prevented the violation.

I accept GP was trying to prevent the jumper from trying it again... but he did involve the FAA in a non-violation situation.

imagine, it's after midnight, and drunks are talking about the wicked stuff they will do on the dawn load. they obviously will be in NO condition to skydive. do you call the FAA rep to educate them?

just as the balloon situation, they have the intent, but will likely lack the ability.

maybe this valid question of limits is why GP started the other thread...

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[rehmwa 2]

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hey obviously will be in NO condition to skydive. do you call the FAA rep to educate them?...

I guess it would depend on what kind of "person" the rep is, who else is around that the drunks might listen to, how idiotic the drunks are being, whether the rep is just another aviation mentor handy vs in an "official FAA capacity", etc.

I won't paint them all with the same brush.

Gary did not "involve the FAA". He involved a knowledgable person named Daisy that wasn't acting in an FAA capacity at the time - that he thought the beligerant jumper might listen to for whatever reason.

I don't see how this chip is going to leave some shoulders on this thread...

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wwarped 0]

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I guess it would depend on what kind of "person" the rep is, who else is around that the drunks might listen to, how idiotic the drunks are being, whether the rep is just another aviation mentor handy vs in an "official FAA capacity", etc.

I won't paint them all with the same brush.

Gary did not "involve the FAA". He involved a knowledgable person named Daisy that wasn't acting in an FAA capacity at the time - that he thought the beligerant jumper might listen to for whatever reason.

I was attempting to illuminate the question of a previous poster, "where do you draw the line?"

the actual events do not appear to differ much from the scenario I created. many jumpers are familiar with the one I described, but few see an unapproved rig being used.

drawing attention to authorities, whether on duty or not, raises the profile of that activity. it MAY provide the autorities a reason to look for such activity. an A&P friend of mine hates when student pilots find a dubious, odd, maintenance issue. not for that issue, but because the remaining students constantly think they find the problem. typically, these copycats are non issues that detract from other mainenance activity.

I do not know all facts to the initial incident.

[hypothetically]
GP & Dixie might have spent an amazing night, laughing and talkin. they had NOT gone to bed. while strolling along, she asks GP, "what's that?" 'course GP has NO choice but to do as he did.

alternatively, Dixie might have been exhausted and cranky from a long shift the previous day spent trying to control these unappreciative skydivers. she hates the convention and how it consumes her time. she is trying to relax for 15 minutes before her shift starts when GP runs up to here to start her day off early...
[/hypothetical]

limited FACTS have been posted and many have gotten them wrong. people tend to read based on their personal biases.

once we settle on the known facts, we can only speculate. you seem happy to agree with GP, but hesitate to act similarly in my proposed scenario. you stumble over "yeah, but's" pondering all the possibilities. if you agree that decisive action is required on one, then why no the other?

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[mjosparky 3]

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maybe this valid question of limits is why GP started the other thread...

That is avoiding my question.... not answering it. Where do you draw the limits?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals