Control Tower possibly going up in DeLand

[quade 3]

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Being under ATC is differenet then operating out of an airport with an active tower. Most DZ's are in some ATC control, just very few have an active tower to control their taxing also.

Phree -- lemme just say that if the airport is busy enough to warrant a ground control in addition to regular tower duties then the airport is definately busy enough to warrant slowing down a bit for the safety of all involved.

That said, my guess is that there are still one or two issues here that are not being discussed that are the "real" reasons why the DZO et. al. are against the concept of having the FAA controlled tower. I can think of one right off the bat that kind of requires that it not be discussed in public. It would, in fact, have a fairly significant impact to the total number of operations per year, but in reality probably has no serious impact on safety -- yet, as I said, it can't really be discussed in a public forum.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

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I'm just wondering if, come the next election, the skydiving industry can show how big we are in town and vote the mayor and his cronies out of office.

That only works if everyone is registered within the relevent districts. I'm not within the city, county, or Congressional district for any of the DZs I visit.

Business owners have more clout than voters in these sorts of situations. They represent the interests of all those from outside the city that contribute money in the form of tax receipts.

[slug 1]

If the tower gets closed down by the FAA because it's not cost effectivve to spend federal resources to have a contoller in the tower because it's under utilized maybe it will be tall enough for other sports activites
Maybe wall climbing can be added to the design of the tower.

BTW the business owners didn't do to good keeping the WFFC at quincy.

R.I.P.

[StreetScooby 5]

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Stewert is class D

I just learned something. Thanks, Tom. See you in a couple of weeks...

We are all engines of karma

[NickDG 23]

Otay Lakes (Boarderland) in San Diego operated for decades without a traffic problem - then the FAA put an Airport Radar Service Area (we called it an ARSA-Hole) over us and a few months later we had a deal.

John Nichols was hit in freefall by a Navy C-130 inbound to North Island Naval Airstation. We never found any piece of him and the C-130 pilots, who felt the impact, reported a bird strike . . .

NickD
BASE 194

[popsjumper 2]

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Well, if it goes up, maybe we can get Psycho Bob to transfer to the tower and help out.

That bears repeating...Apparently everyone missed the best suggestion yet...


On serious note...I didn't see any mention anywhere of the following scenario:

ATC to Otter: Cleared for take-off. Climb to 3000 ft and hold.

10 minutes later -
ATC to Otter: Climb to 6000 ft and hold.

10 minutes later -
ATC to Otter: Climb to 9000 ft and hold.

10 minutes later -
ATC to Otter: Climb to 12000 ft and hold.

10 minutes later -
ATC to Otter: Descend to 9000 ft and hold.

10 minutes later -
ATC to Otter: Descend to 6000 ft and hold.

10 minutes later -
ATC to Otter: Descend to 3000 ft and hold.

etc...etc...etc...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[pilotdave 0]

Once the plane climbs above about 3000 feet, it'll be out of deland airspace and have no abnormal restrictions (edit: assuming they make it a class D). The next problem will be getting clearance for the exit. Not sure if the tower will care about that or not.

I think the biggest problem with a tower is having the FAA watching operations ALL the time. Deland is obviously a very safe, law abiding DZ, but minor violations can happen on occasion at any DZ. The FARs make it nearly impossible to skydive 100% legally all the time...

Dave

[popsjumper 2]

Thanks PilotDave...it's obvious I'm not a pilot or I would have known something like that...

Thanks again.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[EDYDO 0]

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If the tower gets closed down by the FAA because it's not cost effectivve to spend federal resources to have a contoller in the tower because it's under utilized maybe it will be tall enough for other sports activites.

Yes, this passed, but it may not be as bad as originally thought. First, it is going to take about two years to come to fruition. Second, I understand the tower is going to be built with federal assistance and the controllers will meet federal requirements, BUT they will be paid by and employees of the City of Deland. Whether or not skydiving operations are slowed will depend entirely on the mindset of the City of Deland and who they choose to run the tower.

Ed

[NWFlyer 2]

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Whether or not skydiving operations are slowed will depend entirely on the mindset of the City of Deland and who they choose to run the tower.

And... Skydive DeLand has a choice at this point of whether to be proactive and positive about the tower, or being negative and uncooperative. There's no saying whether the former will help the situation, but the latter is likely to hurt it.

[mark 102]

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I understand the tower is going to be built with federal assistance and the controllers will meet federal requirements, BUT they will be paid by and employees of the City of Deland. Whether or not skydiving operations are slowed will depend entirely on the mindset of the City of Deland and who they choose to run the tower.

Hmmm. My experience with non-Federal Control Towers is that they function the same as FAA-staffed towers in all respects. I've always believed the FAA required them to follow the same rule book, but I hear you saying that's not so.

Perhaps someone with ATC/NFCT experience could chime in here.

Mark

[EDYDO 0]

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I've always believed the FAA required them to follow the same rule book, but I hear you saying that's not so.

Same rulebook, same guidelines. Who the controller is and how he thinks, matters. I now believe Skydive Deland will be just fine when this control tower is in operation. It will be worked out.

Ed

[riggerrob 558]

What's the fuss?

I have jumped at a variety of controlled airports over the years, in Canada, France, Germany and the USA.

With professional controllers, air traffic flows smoothly, with only minor delays and surprises are rare.

For example - last Sunday - Pitt Meadows Airport controllers handled: skydivers, Air Cadet gliders, floatplanes, helicopters, privately owned light planes and students from three or more flying schools.
Meanwhile, Vancouver Center sent dozens of airliners over the Pitt Meadows VOR at 6,000 feet or higher.
I did five working jumps on Sunday, without trying very hard. The only reason I did not do more jumps was an intimidating pile of rigging work.
Sport jumpers and students did as many jumps as they could afford.

The bottom line is: professional air traffic controllers keep traffic flowing. To them, skydivers are just more traffic to keep in motion.

[riddler 0]

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What's the fuss?

My father-in-law owned a DZ in California that had a tower. It was the single largest problem, by far, for the DZ. It resulted in significant lost time, fuel and even customers for the DZ. I think a lot of it depends on the relationship the DZ and the tower have, and hopefully if Deland gets a tower, they can co-exist and even possibly help each other. But I will feel pretty bad for them if they do get one.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[JohnRich 4]

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The bottom line is: professional air traffic controllers keep traffic flowing. To them, skydivers are just more traffic to keep in motion.

I emphasized the word "professional" in your statement, above. Because a lot of people have a bias in favor of pilots, and against skydivers. All the regular aircraft are flying around more or less horizontally and thus coexist rather peacefully. Then along come the skydivers, descending vertically at high speed through all their well-organized horizontal layers. And the next thing you know, they don't like skydivers any more... A professional will recognize the rights of skydivers to be there, deal with it, and make it work. But if someone doesn't like the "disorder" of skydivers, then they can make life hell on them.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

When we moved onto the Pitt Meadows airport there was definitely a lot of friction between ATC and the skydivers. Most of the problems, however were in class C being controlled by the (TRACON) Vancouver controllers. The tower controllers tend to appreciate professional pilots much more than your typical 50 hr/year GA pilots.
All new controllers are encouraged to come for a fam flight as well as a free tandem. If they are interested PFF is also free. All new pilots go for a tour of the centre to see how they do things, but also to put a face on the voice (hiring pretty women hasn't hurt over the years). The number one thing the owner has done is insist that the pilots present themselves on the radio at all times as the professionals they are. In the grand scheme of things these measures have cost peanuts and paid huge dividends.
If the presence of a controller causes less movements to take place, the movement level at that airport was too high to be safe.

[mdrejhon 8]

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All new controllers are encouraged to come for a fam flight as well as a free tandem. If they are interested PFF is also free. All new pilots go for a tour of the centre to see how they do things, but also to put a face on the voice (hiring pretty women hasn't hurt over the years). The number one thing the owner has done is insist that the pilots present themselves on the radio at all times as the professionals they are. In the grand scheme of things these measures have cost peanuts and paid huge dividends.

Hear, hear .... Excellent suggestion!

There may be not much that can be done -- if they force the tower onto the dropzone -- then Deland would be well within rights to tempt the FAA controllers to become licensed skydivers (FREE OF CHARGE). Possibly this would help diplomacy between jump planes and other planes, and the better knowledge would increase safety while keeping loads as frequent as possible. If enough bite the offer, there could be an annual ATC Boogie, with PsychoBob.

[Cloudi 0]

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And... Skydive DeLand has a choice at this point of whether to be proactive and positive about the tower, or being negative and uncooperative. There's no saying whether the former will help the situation, but the latter is likely to hurt it.

Absolutely. No one is giving up here and the plan is to roll with it and make the best of it. The city has a few more hurdles to cross before they get that money, so it's not over until it's over. Even if/when they get the approval and funding to build a tower, we aren't done here, not by a long shot.

We will continue to be the professionals we have been and we'll do whatever we can to change the image of skydivers as dangerous "daredevils" with no regard for the safety of others or ourselves. People who don't jump (even in this community so driven by the industry) have such a strange perception of what we do and why we do it. We will continue to strive to change that perception.

A tower, although strongly opposed by more than just the skydiving community, doesn't have to mean the death of DeLand as we know it. We will do our part to make it work and even though there isn't much hope the city will stand up for us, we will remain positive and professional until the bitter end.

DeLand has been a place for innovation many times throughout the years. We plan to make running a successful DZ on a controlled airport another notch in our belt of accomplishments and be an example for other DZ's and skydiving communities if this becomes a trend. [Paraphrasing something Mike Johnston, Skydive DeLand's DZM, said today that I totally agree with.]

Please don't take our disgust or disappointment for giving up or to mean we will be difficult every step of the way. It simply isn't the case. We will do everything in our power to make it work. We're skydivers, for crying out loud! Skydivers don't give up without a fight!

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[Mixoligist 0]

This was in today's News Journal 6/8/06

..................................
Better you than me
..................................

[PhreeZone 15]

Now that is FUNNY!!

FAA is in the middle of talking about consolidating towers all over, there is talk about them closing the radar facility we talk to on climb so its going to be interesting to see where the money falls with ATC over the next few years.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Jumpah 0]

LOL

Would have been great if they were holding their shoes, too...

[akarunway 1]

That WAS FUNNY> I'll prolly be on the no fly listLOL

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[tombuch 0]

Very funny. I love the helmet cams!

-tom buchanan

[SKYHIGH 0]

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All new controllers are encouraged to come for a fam flight as well as a free tandem. If they are interested PFF is also free. All new pilots go for a tour of the centre to see how they do things, but also to put a face on the voice (hiring pretty women hasn't hurt over the years). The number one thing the owner has done is insist that the pilots present themselves on the radio at all times as the professionals they are. In the grand scheme of things these measures have cost peanuts and paid huge dividends.

Hear, hear .... Excellent suggestion!

There may be not much that can be done -- if they force the tower onto the dropzone -- then Deland would be well within rights to tempt the FAA controllers to become licensed skydivers (FREE OF CHARGE). Possibly this would help diplomacy between jump planes and other planes, and the better knowledge would increase safety while keeping loads as frequent as possible. If enough bite the offer, there could be an annual ATC Boogie, with PsychoBob.

This tower will most likely be staffed by contract controllers. It would be a conflict of interest for them to accept a gift valued over $20.00. Ditto for FAA controllers.
By the way, I've seen contract controllers be real hard asses at small airports.

[kallend 1,623]

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All new controllers are encouraged to come for a fam flight as well as a free tandem. If they are interested PFF is also free. All new pilots go for a tour of the centre to see how they do things, but also to put a face on the voice (hiring pretty women hasn't hurt over the years). The number one thing the owner has done is insist that the pilots present themselves on the radio at all times as the professionals they are. In the grand scheme of things these measures have cost peanuts and paid huge dividends.

Hear, hear .... Excellent suggestion!

There may be not much that can be done -- if they force the tower onto the dropzone -- then Deland would be well within rights to tempt the FAA controllers to become licensed skydivers (FREE OF CHARGE). Possibly this would help diplomacy between jump planes and other planes, and the better knowledge would increase safety while keeping loads as frequent as possible. If enough bite the offer, there could be an annual ATC Boogie, with PsychoBob.

This tower will most likely be staffed by contract controllers. It would be a conflict of interest for them to accept a gift valued over $20.00. Ditto for FAA controllers.
By the way, I've seen contract controllers be real hard asses at small airports.

May have something to do with their letter of agreement. At Gary, IN (KGYY) with contract controllers, the tower is not allowed to authorize a practice ILS approach to runway 30 according to the LOA they have with the FAA, and if you ask for one they are obliged to tell you to buzz off. However, if you ask for a long approach to runway 30 they authorize it with no problems.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.