Control Tower possibly going up in DeLand

[skymama 35]

Front page of the Orlando Sentinel today. The vote is on Monday. This sucks.

Read it here.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[jonstark 8]

No mention of the hundreds of millions of dollars that the gear manufacturers bring into the local economy. Alti II is just the tip of the iceberg!

jon

[NWFlyer 2]

Wow, that really sucks.... it's going to be difficult (if not impossible) to replicate the little petri dish of innovation that DeLand is today with all those manufacturers in one area.

ARticle says $40 to $50 million in economic impact from the skydiving industry ... even if that's a low estimate, that's got to be a big hit for a city the size of DeLand. Sounds like they haven't thought it through...

Crossing my fingers for you guys; I've really enjoyed my visits to DeLand and hate to think that opportunity may end.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[JerryBaumchen 1,049]

Earlier this year I heard talk of Bill Coe (Mr. PD) was considering buying his own property for his drop testing.

Maybe there would be enough of them to go together and just buy some land and own their own airport. $40 mil income/yr is some serious $$$$.

Jerry

[Cloudi 0]

There will be a city commission meeting on this subject Monday, June 5th at 7:00 pm at DeLand City Hall (121 W. Rich Ave., DeLand).

We encourage all those in the area who are against this to be present. Bring friends. The more people who show up to represent Skydive DeLand and the manufacturers who depend on this dropzone, the better.

Many people's livelihoods depend on preventing a tower from being constructed at this dropzone/airfield. We're all about safety, too. The tower just isn't the way to go about it--it doesn't guarantee safety, it only promises to bring operations to a crawl.

The city simply isn't thinking ahead and needs to understand how badly this could affect Skydive DeLand and the city of DeLand. There will be speakers representing us, who will explain why the tower could be the end to income to the city and its residents.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[JohnMitchell 14]

I've never jumped at Deland. I do know that Ogden, Utah has 2 DZ's at a tower controlled airport. I've jumped there with no problems. An operating control tower may occasionally delay jump operations, but if the traffic at the airport has grown to a point where a tower is justified, then those delays would be in the interest of safety.

Jump operations are often misunderstood by air traffic controllers. If the tower is installed, the jump operations should be proactive and meet with the facility manager to create a Letter of Agreement with the tower. This will be the opportunity to tell the controllers what the jump operation needs to be successful, and develop the procedures to ensure that.

[n23x 0]

Politely, I understand that there can be confusion and miscommunications between a DZ and tower controlled space, but I myself am confused as to how the rising of a tower equates to the death of a DZ.

Anybody care to elaborate on why co-existance is out of the question?

Thanks!
.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[jonstark 8]

Ogden, Utahr sure as hell ain't Deland. The number of loads that fly out of there unfettered make most DZs look like the tricycle rider on Laugh-In.

Imagine asking "mother may I" for every movement you'd like to make during the day. The wasted time would equate to hours over the course of a week adding to the cost of operations (fuel, mx, hourly wage for pilots, etc) Jump prices would have to go up and the idea that a team might not be able to make enough training jumps on a daily basis would be enough to drive them away or prevent their coming in the first place.

Yes, a DZ can operate on a controlled field but Deland ain't no ordinary DZ.

Fettered access to the airspace there could hamper the regular operation to the point of non-viability. You've gotta be familiar with large DZ ops to appreciate the gravity of this threat. DZ closes; manufacturers go away.

[Cloudi 0]

I don't think that it's impossible for the two to co-exist in a situation that does not include a high volume DZ like Skydive DeLand is.

Right now, during the summer season with one plane going, a tower would probably be no big deal. The teams aren't here training and it's pretty much just us fun-jumpers, AFF, & tandems.

During peak season, it would be a different story. We often have 2-3 planes going most of the day. I can envision that being a thing of the past with a tower. Manifest, jump pilots, and other pilots do a fantastic job of coordinating take-offs, landings, and altitude climbs without some dude off in his tower telling them when they can take off, when they can land, and where they can fly. Not to mention a tower will likely have the planes flying over areas where there are noise ordinances already restricting plane noise. That will piss off the homeowners and then we'll really have problems.

Basically (from my very limited understanding), the city is trying to perform open heart surgery on a hang-nail. It's overkill for a "perceived" problem. I'm sure someone like Bill Coe, Bob Hallett, Bill Booth, etc. could do a much better job of explaining why this could be the end of a successful DZ operation (as it has evolved) and take it to a pitiful version of itself much better than I could.

I think the complaints from the flight school that share the runways may contain some valid concern, but is likely being overblown because DeLand Municipal Airport just isn't the tiny, empty airfield that they would prefer. If it were really the problem they profess it to be, don't you think we would have seen the news crews there for plane to plane collisions?

Just my opinion and take on it. Those with extensive aviation experience will be better qualified to explain it. I'm just one of the meat bombs they let out of the plane, after all.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[wildman2231 0]

at 40 to 50 mil a year,build your own tower and staff it! for the industry you've built there! SKYDIVING!
195 private pilots can wait thier turn-as they are used to at every other destination. It will really suck if you pay taxes for it to be built , and then staffed by the FAA. Then get put on back burner. Yep! move
elsewhere then take that 40 or 50 mil and build skydive heaven in anybodys county! They'll be glad to have you! DO IT FOR YOURSELF! 195 pilots and a jerkwater behind a desk....hmmmm. Get together and get a permit and build and control your tower! The best reason to do this is for safety and control. Yea,sounds easy, not my money or location. Or you can have to pay for it and loose it to... A DZ with its own tower? anybody think of that?
as opposed to a tower on your DZ? I'm a contractor,A hop at lunch would be nice...

I'm fine...crazy people don't know they're crazy...No,Really!

[JohnMitchell 14]

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If it were really the problem they profess it to be, don't you think we would have seen the news crews there for plane to plane collisions?

Have there been any close calls? Have those become more common? How is the level of traffic compared to 5 years ago? Yes, a control tower might add to operating costs. So does holding short of the runway at an uncontrolled airport. So does having to enter the pattern and sequence yourself behind the C-152 doing bounce-and-go's. The more traffic you have at an airport, the more delay you will take, regardless of a control tower or not. You say the jump pilots do a great job of coordinating among themselves. How well have they been coordinating with the other users at the field? Have there been complaints? If so, have they been addressed properly?

I'm not saying there have been problems or that a control tower is necessary at Deland. I'm just saying those are some of the questions get asked.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

pilots do a fantastic job of coordinating take-offs, landings, and altitude climbs without some dude off in his tower telling them when they can take off, when they can land, and where they can fly. Not to mention a tower will likely have the planes flying over areas where there are noise ordinances already restricting plane noise. That will piss off the homeowners and then we'll really have problems.

The dude in the tower ensures separation on the runway, using the same standards that should already be applied by pilots at uncontrolled airports.Just because there is no control tower does not mean you can do what you want. You must still share the pattern and runway with the other planes.

What in the world makes you think the "dude" in the tower will make the planes fly through noise sensitive areas? Believe me, his phone will be ringing as soon as it happens. Noise sensitive home owners love to call the tower when planes fly over. The "dude" will work harder than the pilots to avoid noise complaints. This part of your argument is nonsense.

[Cloudi 0]

Quote

You say the jump pilots do a great job of coordinating among themselves. How well have they been coordinating with the other users at the field?

Actually, I said, "...jump pilots, and other pilots do a fantastic job of coordinating take-offs, landings, and altitude climbs..."

I also said, "Just my opinion and take on it. Those with extensive aviation experience will be better qualified to explain it. I'm just one of the meat bombs they let out of the plane, after all." I don't claim to have all the answers. I don't work at the airport, I work for a manufacturer.

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Have there been complaints?

I assume so from the news article in the original post.

Quote

...have they been addressed properly?

How the heck should I know? Knowing Bob H., I'm sure they have. He is very concerned with safety, so I'm quite sure that extends to all airport operations, not just his own.

I'm not trying to say I know the inner details of exactly why this is happening, just what I see as a resident and jumper. Sorry if I came across that way.

I'm sure the city is looking for a way to prevent incidents and has good intentions by proposing a tower. I just don't think they've thought it all the way through. Let's experiment with it at your DZ first and see how it goes.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[slug 1]

Hi C

Don't see how the state & FAA can justify the expense of a tower without the number of T.O. and landing numbers from the skydiving ops.

Good luck, play nice, make it a win win

R.I.P.

[Cloudi 0]

Quote

What in the world makes you think the "dude" in the tower will make the planes fly through noise sensitive areas?

I'm sorry you don't like the word "dude."

The reason I think this is because the airport is surrounded by them. The jump pilots are pretty much forced to fly close to the airport to avoid them and other local air traffic patterns. I have a suspicion that the ATC won't be having that even though it's done in a very safe fashion. Again, just my opinion. I could very likely be way off on this.

You are quite obviously much more experienced than I am with skydiving operations. If you are trying to get at something (like I'm talking out of my ass), that's cool. I respect that. I probably am. Maybe you can explain why a tower won't be a detriment to a busy DZ? I have an open mind.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[DSE 3]

Ogden, Utah isn't remotely close in operation to what Deland is, not by a long shot. Ogden is slower than its counterpart in Tooele, or at least that was my experience there, and there are a lot of Ogden jumpers that come to Tooele allegedly for that reason. Ironically, we were just discussing that today. I'm jumping Ogden next week because we're there for the airshow, maybe my opinion will change.
that said, I just looked in the phone book, can't find a phone number for the tower in Ogden. My point? The guy in the tower doesn't care much more about noise than the pilot does, and the guy in the tower isn't answering phones about noise. That's what the FAA is for, among many other things.
I dunno....Never have jumped Deland, but have been there. A tower might not hurt operations, but I'd wager it would.
Small airports that don't support more than one DZ sure are nice. Yes, the pilots have to self-manage, but at the same time, they also are managed by a controlled system, and usually do quite well. In Tooele for instance, the DZ has priority because they're commercial, except when the BLM or other government entity has their helicopters or Gulf fired up.
Deland is an awesome place. Sure hope it can stay that way.

[Cloudi 0]

Quote

This part of your argument is nonsense.

Who's arguing? I'm only explaining my take on what a tower could mean. I live here. I jump here. I work here. My job could be gone (or I could be forced to leave my friends/skydiving family if we have to relocate) if my employer can't do what needs to be done.

It's not about drop testing. That's done at another airport anyway. It's about R&D and test jumping customers' canopies when necessary. Something that could take as little as a week or two (with cooperative weather, of course) could take much, much longer if our test jumpers can't get in the air more than a few times a day because the tower over-restricts traffic.

It's not all about fun-jumpers. It's too hot to be in a hurry anyway. Teams wouldn't be able to make as many practice jumps as they need to make their time here beneficial. They will go elsewhere. The DZ would lose a vital amount of income. That would have a huge rippling effect on the community.

Edited to add:

Without the support of teams and manufacturers, that leaves local jumpers, AFF, & tandems.

Jump prices will go up all around to maintain such a large operation. Loyalty goes a long way, but how long do you think the support of local fun-jumpers can sustain a large DZ like this? How many do you think will make the drive to other DZ's with more competitive jump prices?

Once the fun jumpers are gone, how do you think the AFF operation will fair? Do you think tandems will sustain operations? Maybe if they charge $300 per jump (yes, I pulled that dollar amount from my ass)? How will that go over in a financial climate like we currently have?

Yep, let's build a tower. It will be a big boost.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[EDYDO 0]

The authorities who may be in charge of implementation of this have no idea of the financial impact to their community. After all, when they hold that twenty in their hand, they have no idea that it came to Deland through the skydiving business.

If Deland gets a tower, will the last skydiver to leave please turn out the lights.

Ed

[alw 0]

There is a broader perspective on this than skydiving, flight school, and tower.

On one side of the debate is the skydiving busisness. The DZ is relatively mature business. It is cyclical with a winter peak. The jumps per day factor for teams is a necessity to draw them. The Plus on the draw is the proximity of several manufacturers. The other plus on the draw is the weather and local infrastructure for accomodations. The manufacturers benefit from a local DZ for jump availability for testing, some incremental walk in business and a symbiosis of proximity. Relative Workshop and PD rely on an established skill base which would be expensive to develop elsewhere and more expensive to move. Other manufacturers may have similar problems to a lesser degree. Government contracts and mail order are staples, local testing is a benefit that may suffer but perhaps not significantly if a DZ continues to operate in some capacity.

As for the flight schools, a local tower would benefit them. Controlled airport light communications training and practice is an important aspect of any flight curriculum. Uncontrolled practice can be conducted at any number of nearby local airports and is necessary to a lesser degree. It is a good fit with a flight school.

The bigger picture from the City and County is the potential for commercial air traffic. A commercial airport represents non-cyclic business in any government's eyes. It represents growth, which is another attractive aspect that politicians lust for. Proximity to Orlando attractions has been responsible for some growth in air traffic at Daytona and more recently Sanford. Whether or not it will effect Deland is a question mark, but anything that means more tax dollars for a politician to spend is generally good in their eyes.

At the end of the day, this will go where it goes, but our industry and sport has always been small and not well organized or understood by the general populace. We do not have a lobby or public relations face. Not that skydiving publicity is bad, it's just non-existant. Historically nomadic hunter gatherers die out when farmers begin taking over the land. I fear this is just an example of that.

Good luck at the hearings. Remember that the first step to to avoiding a trap is knowing that it is there. Planting the seeds of doubt as to how good the unproven alternative revenue sources are is as important as demonstrating how good the existing ones are. You won't win the argument, but you may help the other side loose theirs.

---------------------------------------------
Every day is a bonus - every night is an adventure.

[skymama 35]

Quote

How is the level of traffic compared to 5 years ago?

From the newspaper article, the total number of takeoffs and landings:

2001: 109,939
2002: 109,989
2003: 123,166
2004: 153,895
2005: 125,500

projected (I don't know how they came up with these numbers):
2010: 150,048
2015: 183,943
2020: 224,897

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[DSE 3]

Does anyone know if the Airport Authority is using funds provided by levees placed on the "big" airlines using Orlando? Don't know if it's the same in Orlando as it is here, but our small airport receives its funds from the majors, because the major airport impacts private operations, thereby requiring a second airport operation in the area for private/small commercial use.
Not that it matters much, other than having a tower would increase commercial use, which is obviously about which the area jumpers are concerned.

[kallend 1,632]

Quote

Quote

How is the level of traffic compared to 5 years ago?

From the newspaper article, the total number of takeoffs and landings:

2001: 109,939
2002: 109,989
2003: 123,166
2004: 153,895
2005: 125,500

projected (I don't know how they came up with these numbers):
2010: 150,048
2015: 183,943
2020: 224,897

How many of those are jump planes? 10,000 or so?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skymama 35]

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How many of those are jump planes? 10,000 or so?

I don't know, I was just quoting the information from the article. Maybe someone else knows how many loads DeLand puts up a year, I've never inquired.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[Mixoligist 0]

Clearly the lure of government grants/loans is clouding the needs of the community.

Bigger is not always better

..................................
Better you than me
..................................

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

From the newspaper article, the total number of takeoffs and landings:


2005: 125,500

Ogden Municipal had 105,120 operations last year. Sounds like Deland is almost 20% busier. I'm not sure what level triggers the call for a tower.