Choosing to scratch for whatever reason - Reprecussions?

[sadskydiver 0]

I'm deliberately leaving out details that don't affect the story, but would make it obvious where this was. That's not necessary to the story. I'm not naming names, and I never will. That's not what this is about. I just want to share this question and get other people's insight.

West Coast dropzone. A few weeks ago. Weather is pretty bad all day. Very few people jumping, most old-timers staying on the ground. Finally clears up late in the afternoon, but there's a thunderstorm moving in off in the distance.

Group puts together a 10-way, invites someone on it. He's a relatively low-timer, a few hundred or so jumps. He looks at the coming storm, declines. They go and do their jump anyway, works perfectly, no problems landing. Within five minutes of getting back on the ground, rain storm moves in. They're all celebrating a great jump, watching the video, "beating the rain." "You should have come - it was great! There was no storm! You should have come with us!"

Despite everyone who talks about how they'd rather be on the ground wishing they were in the air, is there still a level of "oh, you didn't jump, everyone else did, you're a wuss" in this sport, despite everyone claiming that's not the case?

I believe so. But am I wrong? I could be.

I think there's still level of "safety is boring" or even "risk it, it's more fun" in this sport, that although rarely seen, does appear from time to time. And I hope it's not the kind of attitude that could wind up killing those more impressionable.

What happens if the weather turns bad - or the storm picks up speed, and a low-timer, coerced into taking the jump, can't handle the turbulence, or can't reinflate his partially collapsed canopy?

Are we looking at an undiscussed problem, or am I just making something out of a nothing?

[mnealtx 0]

Absolutely nothing wrong with passing up a jump that you're not comfortable with, for ANY reason!!

Anyone that would MALICIOUSLY rag on someone over that is an asshole and should be shunned, anyway. (good-natured ragging on is, of course, a totally different story!)

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[airtwardo 6]

I think there's still level of "safety is boring" or even "risk it, it's more fun" in this sport, that although rarely seen, does appear from time to time. And I hope it's not the kind of attitude that could wind up killing those more impressionable.

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There always was and always will be,it's SKYDIVING!



The question is~

...are you smart enough to make the 'right' call for yourself and are you secure enough to sick with it and not give credence to the others pressuring you to 'take a chance' you aren't comfortable with.

"There are old ones and there are bold ones....not too many old AND bold ones!"

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[faulknerwn 36]

For every time that someone successfully beats the rain, there's one that they don't.

I know that every time I've been convinced to go up to do a jump to beat the incoming weather, EVERY TIME, I regretted it :-)

Last time I turned em down I avoided a hailstorm that others jumped through. The AFF student I was with was very happy that I wouldn't let him go after he saw the others land!!!!

[Orange1 0]

I'd say "well done" to the low timer for having the guts to say no to a jump that "everyone else" is happy with. 5 minutes as a margin of safety? what if they'd had to do a go-around for some reason?
there have been times i haven't jumped when the more experienced guys have, but (so far) have never been made to feel like i was a wuss - maybe dz-specific - but it is something i am grateful for.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[skytash 0]

I'm often one of the first to scratch if I see bad weather coming in or being uncomfortable with the wind conditions. Having said that, I wasn't always this way and there are times now when I choose not to jump and know that 5 years ago, in the same conditions I would have jumped. And that change in attitude isn't even because anything happened to me in bad conditions.

Last time I scratched off a 50+ way, around 5 people said that they should have stood down too (mind you thats over 45 people who were happy with the conditions!). I think it takes guts from a low-timer to choose not to jump and I respect that in others because I know there were times when I wanted to but didn't have the courage to tell others I was uncomfortable when they obviously were.

The way an organiser reacts to me scratching is one of the ways that I judge organisers.

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They're all celebrating a great jump, watching the video, "beating the rain." "You should have come - it was great! There was no storm! You should have come with us!"

I wasn't there and in my view the above comments can be taken two ways - one the negative 'you're a wuss' way or a positive 'it would have been great if you were with us 'cos it was fun, shame you weren't'. That is usually clear from tone of voice and your interpretation may be the correct one in that situation, but commenting that someone should have come doesn't always mean that the person making the comment thinks the other one is a wuss.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I remember a time that I stayed on the ground and I turned out to be the one that was right. The closest tandem landed about 4 miles away. As I recall the farthest was about 6 miles. It took the rest of the afternoon to find everyone and get all of the gear back. Canopies in trees, canopies cut away because people were being dragged.

Some fun razzing is one thing but if someone ever gives you real shit about choosing not to jump tell them to fuck off or find a new DZ.

[docdialtone 0]

"The weather turned ugly on the way to alt. Winds shifted 180 degrees, became high and gusty, her canopy collapsed due to the gusty wind at about 20ft. resulting in a hard landing and a broken Femur."


Ya just never know!

[cocheese 0]

Hell, you're too chicken to fill out your profile...

Probably could have shortened your thread to this:

Are you a follower, or do you sit out when weather looks iffy?

[davelepka 4]

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What happens if the weather turns bad - or the storm picks up speed, and a low-timer, coerced into taking the jump, can't handle the turbulence, or can't reinflate his partially collapsed canopy?

These are the type of questions you should be asking yourself before every jump. When you can't come up with an answer to them, don't jump.

This is your physical well-being and possibly your life that is at risk. Don't take it lightly. Have enough confidence in yourself to stand by your choices.

[peckerhead 0]

You can scratch for any reason any time period.

[darkwing 4]

Neither me, nor any of the people I jump with regularly would give you any sort of crap for scratching any time. Of course, there is good natured name calling all the time, for any real or imagined reason, but actual serious crap for scratching, no way.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[SansSuit 1]

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I think there's still level of "safety is boring" or even "risk it, it's more fun" in this sport,

I see that, too. In addition, there is the "We got away with it, so it must have been a wise thing to do." attitude. Get away with it enough times and it becomes policy.

Peace,
-Jeff.

Peace,
-Dawson.
http://www.SansSuit.com
The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving

[Baksteen 84]

Having not that many jumps myself, I choose to believe that anyone ragging maliciously on you for declining to jump in what you perceive to be dubious conditions is a skygod, and therefore not worth listening to anyway.
Listening to skygods gets you killed.


However, I fully agree with Tash:

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I wasn't there and in my view the above comments can be taken two ways - one the negative 'you're a wuss' way or a positive 'it would have been great if you were with us 'cos it was fun, shame you weren't'.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[BillyVance 34]

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I remember a time that I stayed on the ground and I turned out to be the one that was right. The closest tandem landed about 4 miles away. As I recall the farthest was about 6 miles. It took the rest of the afternoon to find everyone and get all of the gear back. Canopies in trees, canopies cut away because people were being dragged.
.

I can tell you that the Pell City DZ not too long ago had a tandem land 4 miles off, all the way across town to the other side.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[rehmwa 2]

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Anyone that would MALICIOUSLY rag on someone over that is an asshole and should be shunned, anyway. (good-natured ragging on is, of course, a totally different story!)

You got that exactly right.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the ragging was intended as good natured and if the skydiver that scratched took it personally, then he's more of a wuss for that than for scratching.

Someone can scratch or not for any reason

However, you need go no further than these forums to see a 'small' handful of idiots that feel the need to play up the 'danger' aspect of the sport for their own egos. They usually don't advance in skill or stay in the sport very long. It'll never be a challenge or sport to them, only a 'stunt'.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[piisfish 135]

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Group puts together a 10-way, invites someone on it. He's a relatively low-timer, a few hundred or so jumps.

he probably was the most intelligent of the group

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Peej 0]

You're the one jumping, therefore you have the right to scratch or not, end of story. A few hundred jumps ago i would jump in any conditions, just for the sake of jumping. Thinking about it now, they weren't always ideal, even though i handled them ok.

Nowadays i love to swoop and to do this i prefer very little wind, so the chances of me fun jumping even in moderate winds are small. There are days however, like yesterday, where we have a lot of tandems at the DZ and we have to get them done, in which case i'll jump but will keep an eye on things and discuss them closely with the TI with whom i am jumping. If he is happy to jump, we jump.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[steve1 5]

I've seen this happen many times. Often enough though, the more experienced jumpers are the ones sitting things out, because they know better. They know what can happen....But not always.

Sometimes some experienced jumpers like living on the edge and they may pull someone with less experience into something that you know you aren't ready for. It's important to listen to your instincts, and listen to the right people for advice.

I'd find someone with a lot more jumps, that you can really trust, and ask them what they think. Ask them if what you are about to do is safe enough. I've often trusted, more experienced jumpers for their advice, but I don't trust just anyone, just because they have more jumps.

Sometimes people feel safety in numbers. Just because your Pals are going up to jump, doesn't mean it's smart to go with them. I respect someone who is strong enough to say no when something doesn't feel right.

I remember a formation night jump (back in the 70's). We had the twin beech gased up and ready to go. The only problem was that there was no moon, or stars, and it was darker than the inside of a well. All my instincts were saying..."This isn't a good idea!"

But you know, I would have gone ahead and jumped with my pals if they had said, "Let's do it." Luckily one of the more experienced jumpers called it off. What a relief! I guess I'm too much of a follower at times.

Nobody wants others to think they are chicken. But the thing is, listening to your instincts and being cautious isn't being chicken. Caution is something that will keep you alive, and uninjured. How does that saying go about old bold pilots? I think it also applies to skydiving....Steve1

[Fast 0]

Good on the guy for sitting down when he didn't think it was good conditions.

The problem that I have is with people being whinny. I mean, if you had the self confidence to actually scratch off the load, don't be a pussy and whine when people give you shit for it. Stand up for yourself.

More and more it seems like people want to be handled with kid gloves and take everything personally. What happened to sticking with your decision and dealing with taking some shit for it. I mean, if a person can't take some razzin, I don't even know what to say. People get way to upset about things that are probably done in fun / jest.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[kimemerson 7]

Any asshole who calls anyone out for not jumping in marginal conditions, or any circumstance in which the jumper is not comfortable or has questions hasn't been hurt, or hasn't seen anyone get hurt and is a likely candidate to eventually get hurt or hurt someone else. And that asshole needs either to be shut up, shut down, or ignored all together. And of course, a good painful humiliation like only skydiving can provide is a solid way to get rid of the 'asshole' status. Leland Bendel once told me, "An accident is a series of bad decisions executed to perfection." And there's a difference between an accident and a mistake. It would be a mistake to assume you won't get into an accident and it would be an accident waiting to happen to make too many mistakes. Bob Hallet one time came to me when I was about to go up in some ugly winds. "I'm staying down," he told me. "You know how many jumps I have?" he asked. "No, but you're going to tell me, huh?" "About 5,000. And you know why I have 5,000 jumps?" "No, but you're going to tell me, huh?" "Because sometimes I don't jump." Took me the better part of the rest of the season to figure out what the fuck that meant. How do you get 5,000 + jumps without jumping, I wondred. By surviving well and long enough to make them all, I learned. He probably has 10,000 by now. Not bad for a guy who "Sometimes doesn't jump."

[BillyVance 34]

Best advice I ever got: "I have 3000 jumps, I wouldn't jump in winds like that."

12 years and 1220 jumps later, I haven't jumped in winds like he described.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[skybytch 259]

Give me shit if I won't jump because I'm too lazy to pack. Give me shit if I won't jump because I've decided it's my sunset. Give me shit if I won't jump because I want to do something non-skydiving related. I'll take it with a smile.

Do NOT give me shit if I won't jump because I've made a safety call on myself.

Let's say you give someone shit on a windy day and they decide to jump despite their concerns. You open up in significantly higher winds than when you took off. The guy who wanted to scratch ends up getting pushed back over a bad landing area. You gonna sleep good that night?

[popsjumper 2]

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...Let's say you give someone shit on a windy day and they decide to jump despite their concerns. You open up in significantly higher winds than when you took off. The guy who wanted to scratch ends up getting pushed back over a bad landing area. You gonna sleep good that night?

Kids nowadays? yeah...probably would.


...and any potential lessons learned would go right over their heads...WHOOOOSH.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Fast 0]

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Give me shit if I won't jump because I'm too lazy to pack. Give me shit if I won't jump because I've decided it's my sunset. Give me shit if I won't jump because I want to do something non-skydiving related. I'll take it with a smile.

Do NOT give me shit if I won't jump because I've made a safety call on myself.

Let's say you give someone shit on a windy day and they decide to jump despite their concerns. You open up in significantly higher winds than when you took off. The guy who wanted to scratch ends up getting pushed back over a bad landing area. You gonna sleep good that night?

Hey, I am not saying its right. I am saying that if you aren't willing to stand up for something you believe in, what is the point. If you are upset at the fact that people want to give you a hard time about something, then you are questioning yourself. Thats a lack of confidence. Just be confident you made the right call and stand up for it.

I won't encourage anyone to jump when the conditions are marginal and have sat on the ground myself. Some times it would have been ok to go up, some of the times it wouldn't have been. I have heard the "haha you should have come with us, see everything was fine" before and I have basically said, "good for you, I don't care." That is standing up for yourself. Complaining because people want to give you a hard time is stupid.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka