divnswoop 0 #1 March 8, 2005 So this middle-aged man shows up the the drop-zone this weekend. He's wearing a shirt from a larger dz in the south and talks about being on a demo team/drops some well known names. He seems fairly knowledgeable about jumping and has a pretty small rig.(like an old Jav tjn) The main is a Diablo 135 without an rsl. He was pretty happy with the rig and said a person(with 5000 jumps) sold it to him for only $900. After a little investigating, it turns out that he ONLY HAD 40 JUMPS and didn't have a license! With his waiver weight said to be 185 that means he's at least 205 out the door with a 1.5 wingloading!!!! I can't believe that somebody actually sold this to him. It's sad that some very experienced jumper either just wanted the $$ or didn't care that he was more or less assisting suicide. Even if you not an instructor or work with students, the seller should realize how stupid this was. I found out the jumper who sold him the gear and the person who said he would be alright jumping it. I REALLY wanted to post their names here so everybody could know. But I realize that until I can verify the guys story, it may have just been a line that the guy was using to get in the air. I'm posting this because in this day of Ebay and other outlets that unqualified people can get their hands on this gear, DZ's have to be more aware and vigilant when it comes to new people visiting your DZ. Just because someone talks like their experienced, doesn't mean they are. This guy had me fooled as to how many jumps he truly had. I know that ANY canopy that is mis-flown can result in a fatality, but this person on a semi-elliptical with a 1.5 wingloading @ 40 jumps...is speeding in the passing lane to an accident/death. If this jumpers story turns out to be true...I will be writing a little more about this........ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #2 March 8, 2005 I've only got 36 jumps myself and all I can say about that whole deal is: W O W!!! What if this guy spun that canopy up and went in? How would the guy that sold him the rig feel? My nest question would be, is there any liability?? In this particular instance, I would certainly hope so. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,123 #3 March 8, 2005 I'm sure that if you were to ask the guy, he'd say he accepts the risk, and he knows what he's doing. The fact that he doesn't is "irrelevant". Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #4 March 8, 2005 That sucks. I recently bought my first set of new (to me) gear and bought my main from a dealer. When I called up to discuss the details, I was getting a lot of questions about my experience and W/L and my first thought was "Yeah yeah yeah, why are you asking me so many questions - I've done all my homework and talked to my instructors and done the research." But then I realized "He doesn't know that. That's *exactly* the kind of questions he should be asking and I should be happy he's doing that." It's good to know dealers do this (even for very conservative canopies) and it's a shame to think that an experienced jumper wouldn't do that. Of course, personal responsibility comes into play, too, and the jumper who bought the gear probably should have done more homework (at least you hope it was a choice made out of ignorance, not out of stupidity)."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #5 March 8, 2005 Wendy, I totally understand that, but still, Geesh. I just cant imagine ME getting under something like that and I am an EXTREMELY confident person (and think competent too) but thats just plain stupid, in my relatively non experienced view. I guess some people are just tougher than others, at least I hope so in his case. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2cmyzx 0 #6 March 8, 2005 This, unfortunately, is getting to be very common like you said with all the E-bay stores or services that sell for people. Someone brings in a rig to sell and the person who does the selling doesn't know anything about Skydiving will sell it to anyone who bids the most. This was a GREAT catch on your part though to check it out and make sure that He would be experienced enough to jump that! GOOD JOB! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #7 March 8, 2005 QuoteThe main is a Diablo 135 without an rsl. but this person on a semi-elliptical with a 1.5 wingloading @ 40 jumps...is speeding in the passing lane to an accident/death. If this jumpers story turns out to be true...I will be writing a little more about this........ According to my recollection, the Diablo is actually a fully elliptical 7-cell, not semi-elliptical.__ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #8 March 8, 2005 Had a jumper (I'd post his name but I can't remember it) trying to sell me a Sabre2 135 I think.. maybe smaller, when I was looking for my first set of gear. I told Him what my experience was (30 jumps smallest main to date 190) and his responce "you'll be fine the Sabre2 only starts to fly well when loaded over 1.3 to 1 anyway" Even at that level I knew this was BS. but due to that experience I was considering a SAM 150 as a first main and actually thought that was a good idea for a while .... then I pulled my head out of my ass. Thankfully I got my head clear before I ended up by chance talking to Brian Germain, what an ass I would have sounded if I had told HIM I was thinking of a sam loaded 1.2:1 as a first main fresh off AFP Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #9 March 8, 2005 >the Diablo is actually a fully elliptical 7-cell, not semi-elliptical. In one sense the Diablo is not elliptical at all; it's trapezoidal. There are no elliptical curves on a Diablo, only straight lines. But in another sense it's _more_ aggressive than some full ellipticals because it has an aggressive aspect ratio. That's the problem with the terms semi and full elliptical - they're often not very descriptive of the canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #10 March 8, 2005 QuoteI can't believe that somebody actually sold this to him. It's sad that some very experienced jumper either just wanted the $$ or didn't care that he was more or less assisting suicide He lied to you, how do you know he didn't lie to the seller. After being in the gear business for 5 years I can tell you I've had some pretty convincing liars try to get stuff past me. Maybe someone was good enough to at some time.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 March 8, 2005 QuoteAccording to my recollection, the Diablo is actually a fully elliptical 7-cell, not semi-elliptical. As Bill stated the perimeter of the profile (looking down from the top) is straight lines. In addition the leading edge is one straight line, all the taper is in the tail.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #12 March 8, 2005 >After being in the gear business for 5 years I can tell you I've had >some pretty convincing liars try to get stuff past me. Yep. I tried to sell a Crossfire 109 a while back and I had a tough time telling who was lying to me and who wasn't. I finally ended up selling it to a jumper in Russia because he had jumped with a rigger in Washington, and the rigger vouched for his ability. But often there's no one to vouch for the jumper. That's one reason I am pushing this USPA wingloading thing. We need canopy coaches that can really evaluate people's abilities. Imagine the following: "Yeah, I want to buy a Velocity 92." "How many jumps do you have? Have you flown small ellipticals before?" "Oh, like a thousand. And yeah, I've jumped lots of Velocity 96's." "OK. Fax me a copy of the signoff from a CC for a similar wingloading and I'll ship you out the canopy." "Oh - uh - see - I didn't get that yet." "No problem. You're in Georgia? Go talk to XX, he's a canopy coach there. He'll sign you off." "Oh, OK, I'll call you back." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divnswoop 0 #13 March 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteI can't believe that somebody actually sold this to him. It's sad that some very experienced jumper either just wanted the $$ or didn't care that he was more or less assisting suicide QuoteHe lied to you, how do you know he didn't lie to the seller. Thank you! hence my post and this, ***I'm posting this because in this day of Ebay and other outlets that unqualified people can get their hands on this gear, DZ's have to be more aware and vigilant when it comes to new people visiting your DZ. Just because someone talks like their experienced, doesn't mean they are. This guy had me fooled as to how many jumps he truly had. But I realize that until I can verify the guys story, it may have just been a line that the guy was using to get in the air.*** Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #14 March 8, 2005 One solution I saw recently was a guy selling his micrometer velocity, he required all buyers to submit pics of them under another uber small canopy. It filtered the chaff effectively. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crutch 0 #15 March 8, 2005 Word to the wise, there are some pretty convincing people out there, this guy was saying he was on a demo team with someone who was very well known at our dz, hence we slipped checking out his credentials initially. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amanduh 0 #16 March 8, 2005 True story: A guy showed up at my DZ who had just gone through student training and was very excited about his new rig. A very wise instructor, goes "Nice man, you got your own gear now, what did you get?" The kid proceeded to tell him it was a Vengeance!!!! With him wingloading it about 1.3. The instructor asked him if he was familiar with the canopy, etc. and told him he should not be jumping it with that little experience. The kid got mad and left...let's just say that others found out, and said their remarks as well. He ended up trading another person on the DZ for a Sabre I instead. If you do not speak up, then you will feel very bad if something happens to him. They refused to let this kid jump the canopy there...VERY wise in my eyes. For one, because the kid is still around jumping and not dead. I don't understand why anyone would sell gear to someone without the experience needed....I mean...this kid had probably 30-40 jumps at the time..and here someone thought it was cool to sell him a highly eliptical canopy. Makes no sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sid 1 #17 March 8, 2005 Ah... just let him jump it - make sure he signed the waiver and it was witnessed, then at least he won't show up anywhere I'm working........ Good Catch S!Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #18 March 8, 2005 Quote"you'll be fine the Sabre2 only starts to fly well when loaded over 1.3 to 1 anyway" That is VERY common advice. I've heard it over and over (specifically about the sabre2). I yell at people whenever I hear that, and remind them that I do just fine with my Sabre2 loaded at under 1.1, and my performance is just fine. I've been told (by an instructor) to downsize my reserve because you need to be at at least 1:1 on a reserve to get optimal performance. I let him know that I don't WANT performance on my reserve. Lots of skydivers have crazy ideas about appropriate canopies and wingloading. MANY jumpers have no idea what their wingloading is, or even why it matters. But luckily many of the skydivers that read these forums DO know better. When reading this, it's easy to get the impression that pretty much all jumpers know this stuff, but take a good look around in the real world... most jumpers DON'T read these forums or particularly educate themselves outside of what they hear at the DZ. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tombuch 0 #19 March 8, 2005 Quote I can't believe that somebody actually sold this to him. It's sad that some very experienced jumper either just wanted the $$ or didn't care that he was more or less assisting suicide. Perhaps the experienced jumper just didn't know any better. The 135 may have been a conservative canopy to him and his friends, and he may not have much experience judging the qualifications of novices. To that kind of jumper, selling a 135 to a person off student status might seem fine. My "take home" from your post is that individual jumpers selling gear should probably speak with a respected shop and seek guidance about who a specific canopy might be best for. I have always thought it is a good idea for novices to buy from a respected shop until they have the experience to make equipment decisions on their own. Now, I'm thinking it is probably important for individual jumpers to sell to a respected shop too, even though the price for the used gear might not be as high. Selling to a shop, rather than an individual, relieves the previous owner of the responsibility of evaluating the skill or experience of the buyer.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cbennettjr 0 #20 March 8, 2005 Maybe each DZ can have a special waiver stating, "I am aware that jumping this canopy makes me a complete ass, and that the probability that I will become a vegetable is highly likely. I have been advised by DZ staff that, in the event of my injury under said canopy, all my gear becomes the property of the DZO to cover the bad press they incurred because I'm a shit head". Oh, and get him saying it on video. It's like leaving a note before intentionally going in. Won't work but will prove Darwin's theory. chuck Canis meus id comedit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites divnswoop 0 #21 March 9, 2005 Well, I found out that the jumper was banned from the DZ that was on his shirt. (The Farm) Still haven't found out anything about the people who sold him the gear. I "hope" that this guy was just slick enough to pull the wool over the sellers eyes, and it's not the case of the seller trying to make the $$. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #22 March 9, 2005 I was in manifest once when I heard: "I'm want to make a skydive." "A tandem or do you want tickets?" "How much is it?" (prices quoted) "I'll just take a couple of tickets." "We'll need to do a gear check." "I don't have my gear." "We rent gear, what do you normally jump." "The usual stuff..." "Ummm...we'll need to see your logbook first..." The guy had never skydived and was trying to BS his way through it. I've never met anyone so clueless. I wonder what disconnect in his wee brain made that a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bch7773 0 #23 March 9, 2005 we had a student at our DZ who bought a rig and a stileto 135 from someone online. he had 5 jumps and weighed about 160 MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #24 March 9, 2005 Quote I wonder what disconnect in his wee brain made that a good idea. $40 <<< $180! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 259 #25 March 9, 2005 QuoteI can't believe that somebody actually sold this to him. Doesn't surprise me at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 1 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
AndyMan 7 #14 March 8, 2005 One solution I saw recently was a guy selling his micrometer velocity, he required all buyers to submit pics of them under another uber small canopy. It filtered the chaff effectively. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #15 March 8, 2005 Word to the wise, there are some pretty convincing people out there, this guy was saying he was on a demo team with someone who was very well known at our dz, hence we slipped checking out his credentials initially. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amanduh 0 #16 March 8, 2005 True story: A guy showed up at my DZ who had just gone through student training and was very excited about his new rig. A very wise instructor, goes "Nice man, you got your own gear now, what did you get?" The kid proceeded to tell him it was a Vengeance!!!! With him wingloading it about 1.3. The instructor asked him if he was familiar with the canopy, etc. and told him he should not be jumping it with that little experience. The kid got mad and left...let's just say that others found out, and said their remarks as well. He ended up trading another person on the DZ for a Sabre I instead. If you do not speak up, then you will feel very bad if something happens to him. They refused to let this kid jump the canopy there...VERY wise in my eyes. For one, because the kid is still around jumping and not dead. I don't understand why anyone would sell gear to someone without the experience needed....I mean...this kid had probably 30-40 jumps at the time..and here someone thought it was cool to sell him a highly eliptical canopy. Makes no sense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #17 March 8, 2005 Ah... just let him jump it - make sure he signed the waiver and it was witnessed, then at least he won't show up anywhere I'm working........ Good Catch S!Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #18 March 8, 2005 Quote"you'll be fine the Sabre2 only starts to fly well when loaded over 1.3 to 1 anyway" That is VERY common advice. I've heard it over and over (specifically about the sabre2). I yell at people whenever I hear that, and remind them that I do just fine with my Sabre2 loaded at under 1.1, and my performance is just fine. I've been told (by an instructor) to downsize my reserve because you need to be at at least 1:1 on a reserve to get optimal performance. I let him know that I don't WANT performance on my reserve. Lots of skydivers have crazy ideas about appropriate canopies and wingloading. MANY jumpers have no idea what their wingloading is, or even why it matters. But luckily many of the skydivers that read these forums DO know better. When reading this, it's easy to get the impression that pretty much all jumpers know this stuff, but take a good look around in the real world... most jumpers DON'T read these forums or particularly educate themselves outside of what they hear at the DZ. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #19 March 8, 2005 Quote I can't believe that somebody actually sold this to him. It's sad that some very experienced jumper either just wanted the $$ or didn't care that he was more or less assisting suicide. Perhaps the experienced jumper just didn't know any better. The 135 may have been a conservative canopy to him and his friends, and he may not have much experience judging the qualifications of novices. To that kind of jumper, selling a 135 to a person off student status might seem fine. My "take home" from your post is that individual jumpers selling gear should probably speak with a respected shop and seek guidance about who a specific canopy might be best for. I have always thought it is a good idea for novices to buy from a respected shop until they have the experience to make equipment decisions on their own. Now, I'm thinking it is probably important for individual jumpers to sell to a respected shop too, even though the price for the used gear might not be as high. Selling to a shop, rather than an individual, relieves the previous owner of the responsibility of evaluating the skill or experience of the buyer.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cbennettjr 0 #20 March 8, 2005 Maybe each DZ can have a special waiver stating, "I am aware that jumping this canopy makes me a complete ass, and that the probability that I will become a vegetable is highly likely. I have been advised by DZ staff that, in the event of my injury under said canopy, all my gear becomes the property of the DZO to cover the bad press they incurred because I'm a shit head". Oh, and get him saying it on video. It's like leaving a note before intentionally going in. Won't work but will prove Darwin's theory. chuck Canis meus id comedit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divnswoop 0 #21 March 9, 2005 Well, I found out that the jumper was banned from the DZ that was on his shirt. (The Farm) Still haven't found out anything about the people who sold him the gear. I "hope" that this guy was just slick enough to pull the wool over the sellers eyes, and it's not the case of the seller trying to make the $$. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #22 March 9, 2005 I was in manifest once when I heard: "I'm want to make a skydive." "A tandem or do you want tickets?" "How much is it?" (prices quoted) "I'll just take a couple of tickets." "We'll need to do a gear check." "I don't have my gear." "We rent gear, what do you normally jump." "The usual stuff..." "Ummm...we'll need to see your logbook first..." The guy had never skydived and was trying to BS his way through it. I've never met anyone so clueless. I wonder what disconnect in his wee brain made that a good idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #23 March 9, 2005 we had a student at our DZ who bought a rig and a stileto 135 from someone online. he had 5 jumps and weighed about 160 MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #24 March 9, 2005 Quote I wonder what disconnect in his wee brain made that a good idea. $40 <<< $180! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #25 March 9, 2005 QuoteI can't believe that somebody actually sold this to him. Doesn't surprise me at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
