The next fatality waiting to happen.....

[Zenister 0]

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Skydiving IS more complex. Anyone with a negligible amount of jumps (1-maybe 800 or 1000) relies on the seller to select a canopy fit for his or her abilities.

i disagree completely.. (once you are off student status) a jumper should rely on themselves to make the correct gear choices..certainly, take advice from those who mentor you, but relying on a merchant for your own personal safety is foolish..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[lawrocket 3]

kallend said, "The purpose of a parachute is to decerate the jumper from freefall speeds, and all current models are fit for this purpose."

I agree. This is the other side of the argument. Indeed, it's the one I would support and make. But, again, whuffo lawyers don't understand this. And whuffo juries need more convincing of this side than the other side.


Zenister said, "(once you are off student status) a jumper should rely on themselves to make the correct gear choices..certainly, take advice from those who mentor you, but relying on a merchant for your own personal safety is foolish.."

Again, I agree wholeheartedly. Most skydivers would. But Bouncin' Tigger's family would be saying, "What? He got that canopy?! HE didn't know how unsafe it was." Then you've gotta get a whole lotta witnesses to testify that he was told beforehand that it was beyond his skills.

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jumper should rely on themselves to make the correct gear choices

But the jumpers, to do that, need information. From all sources. Lisa has refused to sell canopies to people who are not qualified to pilot them. Moral, ethical, and good practice from a legal standpoint.

Indeed, how many skydivers don't let people continue to rely on themselves, as there are many craters looking for grid coordiantes. They get grounded, lambasted and chewed out.

And it seems from many threads, they take issue with the sellers.

Again, I'll reiterate, I do not accept the position as I have stated it. I could not, in good conscience, argue it. But plenty of people can, and I do try to see all sides of the issue. And that's why any equipment seller with the slightest sophistication would expressly and clearly waive that warranty.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 1,625]

Well, going back to your mountaineering analogy, does the dealer have to say "These boots are not fit for climbing Everest", or "These boots, which are perfectly fine for climbing Everest, are not fit for YOU because you can't climb Everest"?

How is a dealer supposed to evaluate a jumper? Jump numbers (but even people with 1000s of jumps hammer in from time to time)? License level (maybe an old "D" with only 210 jumps).

I think trying to argue that the dealer has a responsibility to screen purchasers is inappropriate since we have no agreed upon criterion for said screening.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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In your issue with the shoe, that shoe meant for Sunday strolls through the park could KILL the mountaineer. That's fitness for a particular purpose. If the shoe falls apart on the first steps through a dewy meadow, that's merchanitability. If it tears through ordinary wear and tear on the stroll that could be expected, no breach of any duty.

Skydiving IS more complex. Anyone with a negligible amount of jumps (1-maybe 800 or 1000) relies on the seller to select a canopy fit for his or her abilities. Selling a novice jumper a napkin may violate this warranty.

I have a hard time with both scenarios. Someone heading for an 8km peak knows (or should) far more than the retailer. They would be the skydiving equlivient of a DDDD, if we had such a thing. And they would be using those boots on a trial run long before going to Asia. Back in the older days, it took quite a while to break boots in for use.

An instructor rated vendor selling me a napkin might have issues, but it's clear that I know better too. What happened to my legal responsibilities? It may be unethetical for the vendor to behave so, but I'm not seeing it as illegal. But misrepresenting a used and perhaps suspect canopy is simple fraud, no?

[Scrumpot 1]

Maybe instead of all these long, interconnecting ellipses, we can try...

Ellipsis'

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Griff69 0]

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Mark you truely are a poster child for the US education system.

Ellipses ...

See you tomorrow.
Ian

The US has an education system?

Chris

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. Liberty is two wolves attempting to have a sheep for dinner and finding a well-informed, well-armed sheep."

[Cloudi 0]

So. Did this genius show up at the Dublin Boogie? Has he tried to jump anywhere else? Or did he, maybe, just maybe decide he should take up golf?

I would love to hear a happy ending to this story. Something like:
He wakes up from his delusional state to be greeted by relieved family and friends. Everyone has a good laugh over his temporary insanity and vows to never let him near peyote again. The End.

I can dream, dammit!!

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[GTAVercetti 0]

ummm:

el·lip·sis
n. pl. el·lip·ses (-sz)

1.
1. The omission of a word or phrase necessary for a complete syntactical construction but not necessary for understanding.
2. An example of such omission.
2. A mark or series of marks (... or * * *, for example) used in writing or printing to indicate an omission, especially of letters or words.

ellipses is plural of ellipsis.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Hans 0]

No he didn't show up in Dublin, but he did show up at The Farm the week before. I had some choice words for him along with several other people.

The Farm

[jeiber 0]

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So. Did this genius show up at the Dublin Boogie?

Actually I decided not to go at the last minute.... I'm curious to know of any developments on this guy as well.

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[marks 0]

damn. too bad i didnt see him... were the coice words harsh enough to where he wont come back again? because i have a few more words for him...

[skinnyshrek 0]

u tell him skimeal

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[Hans 0]

You know how I can be

The Farm

[skybytch 259]

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How is a dealer supposed to evaluate a jumper?

What I did was ask a series of questions designed to give me some idea of if that customer was, in my sometimes flawed but always lawsuit minded opinion, indeed "ready" for the canopy they were asking about.

Overall jump numbers, current canopy and wingloading, number of jumps on current canopy, how they fly that canopy, what goals they have for their next canopy, if they have worked with, continue to work with or plan to work with a canopy coach in the future, how often they do jumps solely to work on canopy control, if they have/can do the things on billvon's "list", where they jump (both for msl and to determine how much traffic they generally fly in), if they travel, if they have previous injuries to protect, how aggressive a person they are overall... for starters anyway. There was also the option of calling the customer's S&TA, instructor and/or DZO if I still had questions about making the sale.

Did I ever refuse to sell something to someone who was capable of safely flying/landing it? Probably. I felt it was better to err on the side of conservatism and I didn't mind pissing someone off. Luckily my paycheck was never affected by it (at least when I worked for someone else; I can't say that about when I worked for myself). Did I ever sell something to someone not capable of safely flying/landing it? Probably. Some people lie very well; it's not difficult to learn to talk the talk. Did I ever get sued? Nope, and as far as I know none of my customers ever died under a canopy I sold them.

I did gain the respect of many in the parachute industry, to the point that when I ordered a 57 sq ft crossbrace for one customer the manufacturer's rep had no problem filling the order - he knew I wouldn't have taken the order if I wasn't 99.9% sure the jumper could handle it.

It's much less stressful working with jumpsuit orders.

[skyhigh57 0]

I find this a very questionable statement from an AFF instructor (no less!) in a public forum about one of his former students.

At your certification course, didn't they teach you not to debrief in public? That's what you are effectively doing; VERY unprofessional, IMHO.

And no, while you have the responsibility to teach the necessary skills before advancing him to the next level, you are not personally responsible for the rest of his life.

At this point of time, especially as you went so far as to identify the individual by first name, the only thing that should be pulled is your license. Your AFF instructional license that is. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but how can another student ever trust his instructor again...if all get's aired in a public forum in no time. Unless that's the new USPA philosophy...(ellipsis)

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I could only shake my head when I saw him totally biff in his reserve landing (I wonder what THAT was loaded at). Needless to say he didn't get his reserve repacked, so he'll be trying to track down a rigger (or repack himself) sometime soon. As he was leaving, he made it a point to stop and tell me he'd see me at Dublin. I sure hope not...

if we see him in dublin. i will make sure he doesnt jump....

anyway.. wholly shit! i didnt even read this thread till now... but my god.. i heard this guy was tossing around my name also...

ya, i did some teaching to him ... i was his AFF instructor. i failed him on a couple jumps. reason being down to the fact that he would just run run his mouth like he knew what he was doing and wouldnt listen... so whatever.... eventually he passed...

i didnt see him jump a whole lot.. but he always brought me a cooler of beer in the back of his old white beat up limo...

honestly. i wish i had the power to pull all those aff jumps i did with him and revoke them....
i cant say im 100% surprised he did somthing like this.. but hel;l.. how ya going to know...

maybe uspa should pull his membership. hell i dont even know if he has an "a" license yet......

but ive been in this sport a while. and you get shit like this from some peeps... but you just have to deal with it when it comes up..

and hopefully if any of you have met me. someone mentioned about the cupid boogie in seb.!! well if you know me. you will know that i might be a little high energy, high strung. hyper. party hard. and skydive hard... actually it is skydive then party.. but you get the point...well you would know that im not STUPID. i dont do stupid things and i would never tell this dude "PAT" is his name by the way... that he should jump a dioblo 135. even if he did have the experience to jump it!...lol... i think the canopy is crap!.. but that is an opinion... and it is mine. so shut up...

anyway.. yes.... he probably is the next fatality to happen..... and im not surprised... not after getting to know him after he graduated.. maybe he will break his leg and learn his lesson instead of getting killed... but he is the type to blame the broken leg on something or someone else..

i would pull his license and his rating if i could... or at least turn the pass AFF skydives to fail.....\

what a dumn ass..... i hope he is in dublin.. i really do... cause if you see him and then see me see him!!!! go ahead and dial 91......... hopefully i get a chance to hurt him before that canopy does....

and no im talking shit.. but i will curse him out..... throwing around names like that to get attention to what you want... is someone that needs mental help.... or humiliated so bad that he leaves the sport all together...


thanks divnswoop. for posting this... im surprised it took me this long to figure out who this was..

[divnswoop 0]

Not that I agree/disagree with what marks has stated in this public forum, but if one of my former students was going around to other DZ's dropping my name when people questioned him about experience and gear in a simular situation as this, I would have a problem.

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I find this a very questionable statement from an AFF instructor (no less!) in a public forum about one of his former student

Questionable is also somebody who enters these forums without a name or background just to put their 2 cents in. Why not step up and stand behind your words?

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At your certification course, didn't they teach you not to debrief in public? That's what you are effectively doing; VERY unprofessional, IMHO.

So you've been to a AFF course?( I didn't read that in your profile) I agree with you,but once again this guy is out there dropping names of well-known people in this area who I KNOW(now that i've met/talked to them) didn't say it was cool for him to jump this gear. As an instructor, I'd have some issues with my students using my name to try and get around the system......

[skyhigh57 0]

In my books, the student-instructor relationship is almost attorney-client priviledged (if that means anything to you by professional experience). I want this to be absolute, trust-based w/o the threat of later discovery in a public venue (even if it's only $30 a pop).

This trust was violated in the posting under question. And as you are so concerned about my profile: for the sake of simplification, let's just assume that I have never jumped out of an airplane. So, tell me where I am wrong...

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Not that I agree/disagree with what marks has stated in this public forum, but if one of my former students was going around to other DZ's dropping my name when people questioned him about experience and gear in a simular situation as this, I would have a problem.

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I find this a very questionable statement from an AFF instructor (no less!) in a public forum about one of his former student

Questionable is also somebody who enters these forums without a name or background just to put their 2 cents in. Why not step up and stand behind your words?

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At your certification course, didn't they teach you not to debrief in public? That's what you are effectively doing; VERY unprofessional, IMHO.

So you've been to a AFF course?( I didn't read that in your profile) I agree with you,but once again this guy is out there dropping names of well-known people in this area who I KNOW(now that i've met/talked to them) didn't say it was cool for him to jump this gear. As an instructor, I'd have some issues with my students using my name to try and get around the system......

[ianmdrennan 2]

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So, tell me where I am wrong...

When the "student" presents false information to another dz that the instructor(s) never gave out.

Performance Designs Factory Team

[divnswoop 0]

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In my books, the student-instructor relationship is almost attorney-client priviledged (if that means anything to you by professional experience).

I agree with that statement. Yes, I did wear a suit and tie to work everyday for 8 years and I'm familiar with "professional experience". However, If I have a student with a particular problem, I will share that with all of my fellow instructors who could possibly be taking someone on their next skydive.

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This trust was violated in the posting under question.

I never said I agreed with that post as it stands. BUT, the trust aspect goes right out the window when somebody starts to use MY name to jump through hoops at another dz. I trust my students to go to other dz's and NOT use me or my name in a manner that is untrue.

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And as you are so concerned about my profile: for the sake of simplification, let's just assume that I have never jumped out of an airplane (or maybe I have jumped thousands of time). So, tell me where I am wrong...

I'm not too concerned with your profile.....I'm just somebody that will stand up and behind the words I post on this forum. It's kinda of a trust thing. I trust myself to post only things that I'll back up AND would be happy to discuss anything I write on here to anybody.
I don't know shimmel, what type of instructor he is, or much about him. It's his choice what he writes on here about his previous students. I never said I agree with that post.....BUT....the priviledge thing goes out the window when somebody puts words in my mouth.

[skyhigh57 0]

I think you and I are eye-to-eye for the most part...no need to further discuss.

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In my books, the student-instructor relationship is almost attorney-client priviledged (if that means anything to you by professional experience).

I agree with that statement. Yes, I did wear a suit and tie to work everyday for 8 years and I'm familiar with "professional experience". However, If I have a student with a particular problem, I will share that with all of my fellow instructors who could possibly be taking someone on their next skydive.

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This trust was violated in the posting under question.

I never said I agreed with that post as it stands. BUT, the trust aspect goes right out the window when somebody starts to use MY name to jump through hoops at another dz. I trust my students to go to other dz's and NOT use me or my name in a manner that is untrue.

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And as you are so concerned about my profile: for the sake of simplification, let's just assume that I have never jumped out of an airplane (or maybe I have jumped thousands of time). So, tell me where I am wrong...

I'm not too concerned with your profile.....I'm just somebody that will stand up and behind the words I post on this forum. It's kinda of a trust thing. I trust myself to post only things that I'll back up AND would be happy to discuss anything I write on here to anybody.
I don't know shimmel, what type of instructor he is, or much about him. It's his choice what he writes on here about his previous students. I never said I agree with that post.....BUT....the priviledge thing goes out the window when somebody puts words in my mouth.

[skyhigh57 0]

Agreed.

But I am not convinced that he ever said: "Marks (Skimeal, or whatever the dudes name) told me I am ready to jump a Diablo 135." If he'd made that statement using my name, I'd be ripping him a new asshole. But that was never made or implied...hence my earlier analysis about violated trust.

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So, tell me where I am wrong...

When the "student" presents false information to another dz that the instructor(s) never gave out.

[divnswoop 0]

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But I am not convinced that he ever said: "Marks (Skimeal, or whatever the dudes name) told me I am ready to jump a Diablo 135."

So, either you were there when it happened, your speculating,or your close to the subject? Which is it?

I didn't post WHO he said it was alright to jump the canopy. It's kinda a privacy thing IMO. "As long as you jump it with some wind" was the favorite quote i heard during the conversation.

Why do you need to be convinced that? I thought we were letting it go?

[pash 0]

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In my books, the student-instructor relationship is almost attorney-client privileged (if that means anything to you by professional experience).

Question: was there ever fee exchanged for service in this instance? or consulting? or an assumption that information was confidential? was either party deceptive in their initial conversation?

Skydiving and "blocking" of information almost seem antithetical to each other.

[marks 0]

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I find this a very questionable statement from an AFF instructor (no less!) in a public forum about one of his former students.

and what exactly is the question?.

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At your certification course, didn't they teach you not to debrief in public? That's what you are effectively doing; VERY unprofessional, IMHO.

i dont know... you tell me, your the Professional here.

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And no, while you have the responsibility to teach the necessary skills before advancing him to the next level, you are not personally responsible for the rest of his life.

agreed, but dont you think any half ass human being would try and make sure that the student could do all of what is necessary to pass before he is passed? go fly a kite!

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At this point of time, especially as you went so far as to identify the individual by first name, the only thing that should be pulled is your license. Your AFF instructional license that is. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but how can another student ever trust his instructor again...if all get's aired in a public forum in no time. Unless that's the new USPA philosophy...(ellipsis)

well then you should potition the U.S.P.A. to have them revoke my license. after all, it is a membership for the people. talk to glen bangs. he is the one who certified me. ohh i dropped his name too!

as for PAT! ya thats his name! PAT PAT PAT!!!! well speaking of name dropping. ya well go figure it out...

[marks 0]

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In my books, the student-instructor relationship is almost attorney-client priviledged (if that means anything to you by professional experience). I want this to be absolute, trust-based w/o the threat of later discovery in a public venue (even if it's only $30 a pop).

why? you got somthing to hide? c'mon give me a break. your obviously not an instructor.

i take my students after they grasduate and humiliate the hell out of them. i try and make the mostr fun of them as possible.. really!.. im just trying to harden them up to deal with people like you/...

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I find this a very questionable statement from an AFF instructor (no less!) in a public forum about one of his former student

PAT! PAT! PAT!....should have never used my name and or my reputation to try and get him somthing... this is personal now.. has nothing to do with my rating...

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At your certification course, didn't they teach you not to debrief in public? That's what you are effectively doing; VERY unprofessional, IMHO.

well if you call this a debrief, then your just like pat.. he has already graduated aff, and the last i heard was still working on the "a" license. my debrief from aff was done a while back... do you even know what is done or said in a debreif!?