Do you loosen your chest strap after opening?

[monkycndo 0]

I follow the same basic steps as Spot on a WS jump. I prefer to have the chest strap loose for me to reach down to unzip my leg wing. It is much easier and doesn't induce a harness turn as much. Between each step, I watch for traffic and maintain altitude awareness. If I am close to my hard deck, I will pop my breaks anywhere in the listed sequence to allow time for controllability checks and then EPs if necessary. If all is good, I finish the house keeping.

I'm not a dirty low puller so seldom hit hard deck before all the chores are done.

And I load my various canopies from 1.4 to 1.6, on Sabres & Nitros and see noticeable improvement in canopy handling with slider lowered and chest strap loosened.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[jumper03 0]

on every jump after controllability and traffic check.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[tetra316 0]

I loosen mine all the way. And I even had a longer chest strap installed after the fact. I like the extra room it gives me and I feel it allows me to use more harness input. And no I don't swoop now. It just feels better and more natural to me once loosened. And yes I have landed it fully done up if pattern, other canopies, altitude doesn't allow me to loosen.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Don't forget the fatality in SoCal not too long ago, where a very experienced jumper had loosened his chest strap, before attempting to pop his brakes, and found that he had a mal (I think this is how it went) regardless, he cut away and couldn't find the reserve handle. Canopy collisions, as well as spinning yourself up could all lead to cutaways with a loose strap. That is not a scenario I will let myself get into, hence I don't loosen it, and if I did, it would be below my hard deck...

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

at that point i collapse slider and loosen up chest strap, then do a full control check with handles.

PLEASE CONFIRM THIS WITH YOUR OWN INSTRUCTORS, but I think that part is backwards to how you should do it. You should do your full controllability check BEFORE you loosen your cheststrap, not after you loosen it. That's because if your controllability check reveals a malfunction that you have to cut away, it's much safer to cut away with a chest strap that's fully cinched-up, as opposed to one that's already been loosened. A few posts above in this thread already mention that.

[Skydave103 0]

Quote

Don't forget the fatality in SoCal not too long ago, where a very experienced jumper had loosened his chest strap, before attempting to pop his brakes, and found that he had a mal (I think this is how it went) regardless, he cut away and couldn't find the reserve handle. Canopy collisions, as well as spinning yourself up could all lead to cutaways with a loose strap. That is not a scenario I will let myself get into, hence I don't loosen it, and if I did, it would be below my hard deck...

Are you sure you have the facts straight?
loosening your chest strap will set your handles back just a little if you continue to stay upright. if you lean forward then they will move behind you.

Andrea, once your under a good canopy stow your slider past your toggles (dont release your break until after you do this and be careful. I have popped a toggle before pulling my slider down) and stow it behind your head.(i have a removable)

i loosen my CS before i release the brakes once that is done i do my breaks.( i also have an extended CS. about 3' long)

play around with leaning forward and resting on your now loose CS. It feels funny at first but you get used to it. and no your not going to fall out!

as said before it least the canopy fly as intended.

I will see you in Fitz if you have any questions!!!

LifeshouldNOTbeajourneytothegravewithawellpreservedbody,buttskidinsideways,cigarinone hand,martiniintheother,bodythoroughlyused upandscreaming:"WOO HOO!! What a ride!!!"

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Quote

Don't forget the fatality in SoCal not too long ago, where a very experienced jumper had loosened his chest strap, before attempting to pop his brakes, and found that he had a mal (I think this is how it went) regardless, he cut away and couldn't find the reserve handle. Canopy collisions, as well as spinning yourself up could all lead to cutaways with a loose strap. That is not a scenario I will let myself get into, hence I don't loosen it, and if I did, it would be below my hard deck...

Are you sure you have the facts straight?
loosening your chest strap will set your handles back just a little if you continue to stay upright. if you lean forward then they will move behind you.

Andrea, once your under a good canopy stow your slider past your toggles (dont release your break until after you do this and be careful. I have popped a toggle before pulling my slider down) and stow it behind your head.(i have a removable)

i loosen my CS before i release the brakes once that is done i do my breaks.( i also have an extended CS. about 3' long)

play around with leaning forward and resting on your now loose CS. It feels funny at first but you get used to it. and no your not going to fall out!

as said before it least the canopy fly as intended.

I will see you in Fitz if you have any questions!!!

I am sure they have their facts straight. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3246379#3246379
I changed my habits after this incident. It took quite a few jumps as old habits die hard, but I do believe you need to finish your canopy check before you loosen your chest strap.

[Skydivesg 6]

I'm getting to the party a little late but I'll throw my 2 cents in anway.

I have been loosening my chest strap and advising others to do so for about 20 years, since my first Sabre. I always have 12 to 16 inches added to the strap when ordering a new rig and even had one replaced to get it longer. I loosen it all the way to the stop (fold). I also usually do a handle check after wards. I know where my handles are after loosening just as well as I do before. And always lock eyes on them as well.

It's important to note that if you do not bring the slider all the way down behind your head or remove it then the benefits of spreading the chest strap are negligible for reasons already stated.

As some have already stated, spreading the chest strap dramatically reduces the anhedral shape. Which simply means when looking directly at the front of a canopy the wing tips are pulled down below the center cells after opening. Because of this, the lift on the outer cells is pulling at an angle to the outsides. The more you reduce the arc from wing tip to wing tip the flatter the wing becomes. This allows a more effecient wing surface which causes the lift to pull more directly up over head.

All this provides the following as mentioned by others:

* Improved overall lift
* Improved glide
* Improved stability (especially in turbulence)
* Lower stall speed
* Improved flare

All of this is a basic understanding of aerodynamic flight and can be readily researched anywhere.

It is my understanding that all of those with PD will essentially tell you the same thing. And that most average jumpers will see noticeable improvement in canopy flight, even those will larger wings and lower wing loadings.

When I talk to newer jumpers I tell them to listen to everyone, but to always question a person's answers. Sort of like making them defend a thesis. Ask them how they have come to their conclusions. It won't take long for an intelligent person to figure out if the answers are just being regurgitated from what they've heard or if they have actually thought out their position.

It's also important to note that many older jumpers are set in their ways and will often tell you that someone elses ideas are "BS". Again it doesn't take long to figure out who those people are.

If people will take the time to invest a few jumps dedicated solely to canopy flight they will soon learn for themselves whether this chest strap stuff is a myth or not. I've done the research, I've made the jumps and I know for a fact that it is not a myth.

I won't waste time trying to convince the close minded who refuse to do the research because I'm a firm believer in:

"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[d100965 0]

That's one of the best posts I've ever read on DZ.com! Very nicely said.

That would be a good place to leave things.

We could go round in circles here and talk this over to the death. What's perceived, what's not, what's real and what's BS.
But you know what the simple answer is?

Well, that's easy.....

If you haven't tried it yet, then just have a go and see for yourself.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

Quote

Didn't use to...then John LeBlanc suggested it, even on a canopy loaded at 1:4/Storm. It does make a difference in the landings and how my body can pitch forward. I don't have a long chest strap,You might want to try it for a few jumps and see how you feel about it, even on a lightly loaded canopy.
I wouldn't recommend it to newer jumpers until they're really comfortable with the post-deployment and landing process, merely because it's adding more 'stuff.'

That really makes sense Jim, if you want a really nice gross motor skill connector get a hold of me and I will send you a couple.

They are really strong and have a paracord connected that pulls the buttons in from center when tugged with very little input.

Depending on the length of the cord you could release that without letting go of the toggles I think.

They are made by ITW Nexus

It's a really old 'trick' that use to make quite a difference on a PC, hang the front mounted reserve to the side and open the chest strap all the way.

I jump fairly lightly loaded canopies and I agree with DSE, it DOES make a discernible difference, even just doing it 4-5 inches...flattens out the wing and gives you more responsive turns and flare.

REALLY turbo-charged one of my demo canopies by adding a split slider!

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

Are you sure you have the facts straight?
loosening your chest strap will set your handles back just a little if you continue to stay upright. if you lean forward then they will move behind you.

Won't that make them harder to find? And in the event of a spinning, falling mess, the slackness of the harness can really make those handles move around, right? That's the point he was trying to make.

[bofh 0]

I do loosen my chest strap and extender before grabbing the toggles.

With my old toggles it is really hard to grab the toggles again after they are released, they flaps around too much in the wind and I had to land once without having them properly in the hands due to that. I tend to wiggle back and forth when releasing the chest strap with toggles in hands, which I don't like. My new toggles will be of the stiffer model, so after I've tried them, I'll change my ways to release them before opening the chest strap.

[wildcard451 0]

Every jump, all the way to the stop, with slack still left in the chest strap.

Open
Secure RDS +/- Bag/PC
Clear rings
Pop Brakes
Loosen chest strap
Hands back into brakes, etc....

Canopy much more responsive to harness input once the chest strap is loose. YMMV.

[tbrown 26]

Truthfully, I never even think about it. I like having a snug feeling to my harness before leaving the plane. Then after opening, I just collapse the slider, pop off the brakes and negotiate the traffic back to the dropzone. I'm not a swooper or a crewdog, to me my canopies are just the ride home so I can jump again. That doesn't mean that I don't take canopy courses, nor do I fly on auto pilot. I'm just more of a freefaller is all.

Finally, I don't pull the slider down either. I have tried it and I have noticed better performance. But I don't like the hassle, and especially don't like the way the slider interferes with my peripheral vision, especially as I like to jump with fairly large formation groups. I'd rather sacrifice a wee bit of performance to keep an eye on everyone else.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[JanuszPS 0]

Two rigs for different jumps:
rig 1- 150 sft canopy for WS @ 1.25 WL - all way to the stop, but it's not very long
rig 2 - 120 sft canopy @ 1.6 WL for FS, FF, canopy flying, etc - all way down - extended chest strap

I did it first time on Cayenne 170 and was doing on SA2 150 @ 1.25 WL and I noticed huge difference. Since I cannot imagine to fly any canopy w/o doing it. It improved my flying/landing ability and quality to huge extend. I was frightened doing this first time (before I had 100 jumps), but later I get use to.

Up to 135sqf I was loosening the chest strap with brakes in my hands (after collapsing the slider and stowing behind my neck). But on my 120 I find loosening my chest strap a little exiting as the canopy is more sensible to uneven pulling on toggles.

@ Dave:
Just speaking using common sense. No matter if the canopy is flying better or this is a subjective feeling that it flies better. The most important for the jumper /eg. me is that I fly and land my canopy better! So I don't really care what the canopy was designed for. It works better so I don't see much reason for arguing what makes it happen.

Speaking as an engineer I can say that everything is designed to work in some range of control, installation etc, which is called a tolerance.
Now, thus if the risers are spread or not, the canopy works as it was designed to - there is control and is safely landable with or w/o loosen chest strap. The question is if the canopy works better, and most of ppl think that it does, as flat wing is more efficient and has more lift thus still flies with less speed.

The same sort of question is if lying forward in the harness improves the canopy efficiency/flying ability or not... fact is people lying in the harness are landing better in different aspects as finishing the flare at the end of the canopy flying speed (not prematurely) covering more ground at the landing, etc.

just my opinion.
j.

Back to Poland... back home.

[danielcroft 2]

I loosen my chest strap on every jump if it's safe to do so. I pop toggles and check canopy before loosening my chest strap. I'm flying a Sabre 2 so it's not really a big deal to balance the canopy when doing this. I've jumped a friend's KA (more lightly loaded) and didn't have any issues doing this either. I feel as though the canopy flies better like this and have to agree with JanuszPS, even if there's no actual improvement in efficiency to the wing (or it's negligible) the point is that I feel happier and that's a performance improvement right there. I also pull my slider all the way down and am looking into a removable slider (not a full RDS) this year.

[Rugby82 0]

I loosen my cheststrap every jump. I loosen my cheststrap before unstowing my toggles. I added a step to my EP which now is:

- Tighten cheststrap
- and the rest....

I bought a removable slider from LookMa 2 months ago and made about 15 jumps with it. I love the great peripheral vision and the openings on my Crossfire2 - 139 got much better. I always got stuck with my camera box in my slider, it really sucked. The canopy flies even better with the slider removed than it did with the slider down.

I also got the RDS-pouch from LookMa which can be used even in freefall and is easy to put your slider in. It has 2 straps that connect to your hiprings and a sleeve where you put the cheststrap through.

Blue skies!

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

All this provides the following as mentioned by others:

* Improved overall lift
* Improved glide
* Improved stability (especially in turbulence)
* Lower stall speed
* Improved flare

Question:
If all these benefits can be achieved after opening, why is it that manufacturers don't design, and build, the canopies with these benefits built in?

On the face of it, these benefits might be achieved with a line set change since all we're doing is changing the shape of the canopy.

It's kinda like having to buy after-market add-ons to get your new car to run smoothly.

I'm missing something, obviously.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Av1ator 0]

I was thinking the same thing Pops.

And aren't are the Really Kool Kids jumping removable sliders these days?

[davelepka 4]

Quote

My canopy does everything I want it to do rather nicely as is.

IF there's a difference, I cannot see how it would improve on what I already have to such an extent that it would make me change anything

There you have it. Summed up nicely, and right in line with what the OP was asking.

Given the actual benefits of loosening the chest strap are partially jumper percpetion, and partially better suited to swoopers or jumpers who use harness input, it leaves a small portion of the benefits that will apply to the average non-swooper with no interest in lossening their chest strap, so why do it?

Let's look at a PC. A PC may actually work if it's uncocked, but the penalty if it doesn't work is fairly severe, so in essence, you have to cock a PC.

If you want a helmet to protect your head, ti might stay on if you don't fasten the chin strap, but the penalty(ies) for it flying off in freefall (lost helemt or loss of protection) are severe enough that you have to fasten your chin strap.

Your chest strap is another story. You do not have to lossen it to get your canopy to open or fly properly, so if you're not the type to be inclined to do so, then don't.

To who don't read completely or cannot comprehend, I openly admitted that there are gains to be had from lossening your chest strap. I lossen mine to the stop on every jump and feel odd if I borrow a rig with a shorter chest strap.

The point I was making that if you take a jumper, like the OP, who is happy with their canopy and it's performance, and happy with their chest strap tight under canopy, then there is no reason to add to their workload or risk level on a skydive.

[Mr.B 0]

Quote

On the face of it, these benefits might be achieved with a line set change since all we're doing is changing the shape of the canopy.

Yes, these benefits, probably can be achived with a proper lineset too, but then a canopy manufacturers would need to make these linesets, to match jumpers body and/or harness size. This might also mean more testing of specific canopy / lineset / harness combinations. Not to mention it could be a little difficult to actually demo such manufactured canopies, as a lineset for big guy might cause funky openings for a smaller/thinner girl. I think we are better of with canopies that are built for a "lowest common denominator"

I haven't seen it mentioned here, but loosening a chest strap and bringing slider down the risers, will also result in moving a center of mass (of canopy+jumper system) a little bit lower, which not only means better harness input, but also less chances of getting into unintentional line twists after opening (for instance as a consequence of a too aggressive toggle input, or canopy collapse).


cheers,
Bart

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I also got the RDS-pouch from LookMa which can be used even in freefall and is easy to put your slider in. It has 2 straps that connect to your hiprings and a sleeve where you put the cheststrap through.

Why?

Roll up the RDS and shove it between your back and the bottom of your container. It is out of the way and it works like a champ. After around 1000 jumps doing that, I haven't lost one yet. Then you don't have a big bag with extra straps floating around near your handles.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Rugby82 0]

Quote

Quote

I also got the RDS-pouch from LookMa which can be used even in freefall and is easy to put your slider in. It has 2 straps that connect to your hiprings and a sleeve where you put the cheststrap through.

Why?

Roll up the RDS and shove it between your back and the bottom of your container. It is out of the way and it works like a champ. After around 1000 jumps doing that, I haven't lost one yet. Then you don't have a big bag with extra straps floating around near your handles.

I only use the removable slider because the slider gets in the way with my camera-herlmet on. Don't know if this will work then.

The pouch is easy to use. I sewed two hard pieces of webbing onto the back of the cheststrap and they keep the pouch perfectly in place. The pouches isn't floating near the handles, it stays in place perfectly. Even while freeflying with 190+ m/h.

Blue skies!

[AggieDave 6]

For me, if I was running a partial, I'd just stuff the slider in my shirt/jumpsuit. Just seems like a lot of extra stuff for something that is already extra stuff. Each level of complexity adds a complication, but if it works for you, then enjoy!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DocPop 1]

Quote

Your chest strap is another story. You do not have to lossen it to get your canopy to open or fly properly, so if you're not the type to be inclined to do so, then don't.

And there we have it. That is the whole summary of this thread.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA