Cypress SAVE

[dragon2 0]

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When asked about the dive and why she did NOT pull the reserve, she stated that she was waiting for her RSL to deploy the reserve. ????

She was spoken too by many on the ground.

Question to all is: Is this a grounding situation?

I know in Sweden, she would be banned from the sport, FOR LIFE. Cause.. theoretically you are dead.
I think the rule there is if you land conscious from a Cypres save, you can sell your gear and you will never be allowed to jump in Sweden again.

Someone local there correct me if i don't have the facts straight.


Personally.. device dependence is a very dangerous thing, what are the emergency procedures we all get taught in ground school?
Cutaway, pull reserve.

One of my friends had a cutaway a couple of weeks ago, and the RSL beat him to pulling the reserve handle.. BUT.. he did grab the handle anyways, ready to pull it out, but he was already under a reserve.

ALWAYS execute the emergency procedures.. ALWAYS.

This jumper should be grounded.

Always? What if you have a "reason" to pull that low or not at all? For instance, I've had someone tell about they're almost double total for instance (rigging error, 2nd reserve pin couldn't release without damaging the reserve housing, which she did!), or people that are otherwise busy the entire time to fix the problem trying to get the reserve (or any canopy) to open. Personally I don't see any reason to ground people like that, they didn't "wait" for the cypres fire, kept fixing a problem they should've cutaway from for too long or simply pulled too low.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Anvilbrother 0]

Has anyone said that she might have been using a SOS type rig in the past, and just started to use a dual procedure rig. I could see where she or anyone for that matter who did not train enough for the type of gear that they are currently jumping to do such a thing. I.E. a jumper has just started using a dual procedure rig after having been on a SOS rig for most of their jumps, has a mal. and just goes for one handle.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[MakeItHappen 15]

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I found this question very interesting that was on the link for DDA on Makeithappen's post.

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4 - Have you had to have an eye-opener upon awakening during the past year?
Do you need a device to jump? This is a pretty sure sign that you are device dependent.

How does this pertain to DZ's and federations/associations that are making AAD's mandatory?

I have 175 jumps and Im based in NZ.

I need 200 jumps min to get my C and then I can jump without an AAD, but in Jan 07 AAD's are mandatory for everyone in the sport in NZ.

Are we all gonna be DDA?

First off, the DDA article is a spoof on the AA questionnaire.

Secondly, if a jumper has an AAD save, as in the case here, it doesn't really matter if it's required or not. The fact is that the jumper did not do anything to save herself.
What is even more amazing was that the jumper was depending on one gizmo (RSL) and another gizmo (AAD) actually saved her. That is a double problem.

One thing that can be observed is that some nations are becoming device dependent faster than other nations. They pass these mandatory rules for required gizmos because they do not trust the jumpers to act appropriately.

This is good because the gizmos save lives more often than taking them.

It's bad in that the people entering the sport have a different perspective on 'what is safe' as compared to people that started before these gizmos were available. Some of today's jumpers won't jump without some of the gizmos. IOW, they don't trust themselves to do the right thing or they may think they'll be in a situation that dictates an absolute need for the gizmo. It is also bad because in some cases the required gizmo may introduce a greater risk than actually lower it.

I have another satirical article at Fast forward to the year 2050

I am thinking of adding in a section about jumpers from 2050 reminiscing about the 'old days' that goes like this:

"Geez, remember when they jumped those split saddle rigs. Why didn't they see that people were 'almost' falling out of those rigs and ground them? It took fatalities for people to do something about it. Remember when they had AADs that did not know you had a good canopy and fired when you did a swoop. Why didn't they ground those? Instead they made them mandatory. What were these people thinking?"

In regards to this incident and the people talking about EPS as 'two-step' and talking about an SOS (aka a one-step'):

Some people are taught 'cutaway-pull reserve' for both total and partial malfunctions.
Some people are taught 'cutaway-pull reserve' for partial malfunctions and 'pull reserve' for total malfunctions.
Both of these procedures are acceptable.
On an SOS system, there is only one handle to pull. Pull it for total or partial malfunctions.
The replies seem to muddle these things. IOW, one person talking about an SOS one step is confusing what another person said about the 'one-step-pull reserve for a total'.

For the person that mentioned comparing altimeters at altitude:
Usually, the uncertainty between altimeters increases with altitude. My altimeter can read 1000 ft different at 13k, but at 4k can read the same as yours. Be very cautious about adjusting altimeters at full altitude. Instructors have a SOP to set their altimeter to pull altitude when the student's altimeter reads pull altitude on the ride up.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[fallfast69 2]

I much as I wish I could agree with Hook on this, I simply can't. If this person had 10 or 20 jumps...maybe. This jumper has 100 jumps. Unless they have been walking around the DZ without the benefit of eyes and ears for the past 100 jumps, there isn't a reason in the world that this should have happened the way it's been told it happened. I really like the phrase "you don't know what you don't know". But in IMHO, there seems to be alot of people who don't know the second part of this is "what you don't know can KILL you".

I'm sorry, but at 100 jumps there is no excuse for not knowing some of the most fundamental things about skydiving.

Or, maybe we just get them a cup of coffee, or a beer, and tell them how badly we feel for them...it's skydiving for cryin' out loud.

[AFFI 0]

Yet another example where skydivers do not continue to train after getting off student status. Shockingly, I have done refresher courses with slightly out of current skydivers that knew less than students do on many occasions.

There is no excuse for not knowing your EP’s on the equipment you are using IMHO, so you pay your money and take your chances, with all the lackadaisical attitudes concerning the lack of importance in knowing EP’s - I don’t know what to say other than every now and then we need the sacrificial lamb to remind us that skydiving is inherently dangerous and that we are mortal. Fortunately her Cypress worked and this individual was just made to look stupid and not corpsed up.

Ground her? You bet – Make her go through remedial training? Undoubtedly… I wish the USPA required skydivers to take remedial training of some sort when renewing their license to better ensure that everyone is best prepared to handle situations. Safety Day is a joke.

As Mike told Sully (Monsters Inc.), if you name it you get attached to it.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[vdschoor 0]

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Always? What if you have a "reason" to pull that low or not at all? For instance, I've had someone tell about they're almost double total for instance (rigging error, 2nd reserve pin couldn't release without damaging the reserve housing, which she did!), or people that are otherwise busy the entire time to fix the problem trying to get the reserve (or any canopy) to open. Personally I don't see any reason to ground people like that, they didn't "wait" for the cypres fire, kept fixing a problem they should've cutaway from for too long or simply pulled too low.

Saskia,

I can find out what the rules are, this is just what someone from Sweden told me, maybe in a special situation you would just get away with a warning (they have a three warning system or something too.. three warnings and you're done skydiving in Sweden too..)

Your cypress fired because you kept fixing something for too long? To me that sounds like you lost altitude awareness, which should be talked about too..

There's a lot of scenarios possible here, and it's not quite a black and white / yes or no thing.

I just think that this jumper that literally got saved by her cypress because she did not execute her EPs AT ALL because she was waiting on a device to do it for her, should be grounded.. she should go bowling.

[anewempire 0]

when i got certified this summer i wasn't even really told what an RSL was. they gave me a basic overview of it but they really wanted to push into my brain that the only way to save myself was to pull the reserve handle. i feel that was a pretty good way of teaching it, by basically just leaving it out so that i will naturally perform my EP instead of having in my head that something else will save me. but whatever. i have 27 jumps and don't know what i'm talking about

[dragon2 0]

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Always? What if you have a "reason" to pull that low or not at all? For instance, I've had someone tell about they're almost double total for instance (rigging error, 2nd reserve pin couldn't release without damaging the reserve housing, which she did!), or people that are otherwise busy the entire time to fix the problem trying to get the reserve (or any canopy) to open. Personally I don't see any reason to ground people like that, they didn't "wait" for the cypres fire, kept fixing a problem they should've cutaway from for too long or simply pulled too low.

Saskia,

I can find out what the rules are, this is just what someone from Sweden told me, maybe in a special situation you would just get away with a warning (they have a three warning system or something too.. three warnings and you're done skydiving in Sweden too..)

Your cypress fired because you kept fixing something for too long? To me that sounds like you lost altitude awareness, which should be talked about too..

There's a lot of scenarios possible here, and it's not quite a black and white / yes or no thing.

I just think that this jumper that literally got saved by her cypress because she did not execute her EPs AT ALL because she was waiting on a device to do it for her, should be grounded.. she should go bowling.

Nah I meant people that didn't wait for the cypres, didn't keep fixing something when they should've cutaway and didn't simply pull too low. But people that ended up with a cypres fire anyway. Sorry if the wording wasn't clear...

BTW I ended up with a FXC fire once (2 out), after pulling at 2500 k when I had 50 jumps (admittedly, I puled too low, but should I've been grounded for life for that?)

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[krkeenan 0]

In my judgement, it is certainly a grounding situation. The person should receive re-training to include an evaluation process to determine if she really understands how all of this stuff works.

I think it's amazing some of the ideas people have about gear operation. They may be completely wrong about something, but no one knows about their bizarre concept until something like this happens.

Many people seem to think that this little silver thing with the red light is some kind of "Harry Potter Magic Charm" that will protect them from all evil. After all, it costs a lot of money, so it must do everything.

Today's equipment is so good, that people can survive in the sport for quite a while even when fairly clueless. However, the Darwinian aspect of skydiving is still very strong. If someone is clueless enough, they're going to go in sooner or later.

Kevin

======================
Seasons don't fear the Reaper,
nor do the Wind, the Sun, or the Rain...

[vdschoor 0]

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BTW I ended up with a FXC fire once (2 out), after pulling at 2500 k when I had 50 jumps (admittedly, I puled too low, but should I've been grounded for life for that?)

You should have gotten a talking to
You saved your life by deploying your main, granted it was too low, still YOU saved your life. Your backup device fired because you happened to do it too low..

Just a talking to, and the fact that this scared the crap out of you will be (and I am sure was) enough.

[dragon2 0]

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BTW I ended up with a FXC fire once (2 out), after pulling at 2500 k when I had 50 jumps (admittedly, I puled too low, but should I've been grounded for life for that?)

You should have gotten a talking to
You saved your life by deploying your main, granted it was too low, still YOU saved your life. Your backup device fired because you happened to do it too low..

Just a talking to, and the fact that this scared the crap out of you will be (and I am sure was) enough.

Oh it scared me alright, and of course I did get a talking too. Although maybe not why you'd expect: the biplane flew for a long time but then developed into a downplane which I chopped. I got grounded for 2 weeks because of that chop, even though I'm still 100% sure I was right to chop:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1904975#1904975

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[jumpwally 0]

how about grounding her instructors? How does someone get signed off and get a 100 jumps without that knowledge ? Yikes,,scary stuff

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[Hooknswoop 19]

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How does someone get signed off and get a 100 jumps without that knowledge ?

Maybe she had great Instructors that explained EP's and RSL's very well, but she couldn't be bothered to learn. Maybe she was overwhelmed, simplified the instruction down to a managable level. Maybe she felt she understood, but actually did not.

Without more information about the jumper, I can't make a call.

The other side of the coin is device dependancy. Maybe it was how she was trained. Maybe she is a victem of the current trend to rely on devices to take care of things instead of the jumper treating them strictly as back up devices.

There is a lot that can be learned from this by everyone, Instructors, jumpers, students, everyone.

Derek

[inextremis 0]

Our club has been in existence since 1958 with only one fatality. This past week the instructors were discussing wraps and entanglements, and we installed RSLs on all our training harnesses so we could work through those issues in detail with our students. RSLs are out of sight out of mind for most inexperienced jumpers. I am a liberal "grounder," my philosophy is that you can never be wrong grounding a skydiver but you can certainly be wrong not to. But MANY DZOs don't bother to install RSLs on suspended or leaning training harnesses, and it's a mistake of omission. So supertack that RSL on the training harness where it can't be ignored, and establish instructor student dialogue about rooftop landings, wraps/entanglements, and exactly the function of an RSL.

[popsjumper 2]

Grounding until she:
- is re-taught proper EPs and
- can prove that she knows proper EPs and
- can prove that she can perform proper EPs.

Anything less is putting her right back in danger.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AFFI 0]

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when i got certified this summer i wasn't even really told what an RSL was. they gave me a basic overview of it but they really wanted to push into my brain that the only way to save myself was to pull the reserve handle. i feel that was a pretty good way of teaching it, by basically just leaving it out so that i will naturally perform my EP instead of having in my head that something else will save me. but whatever. i have 27 jumps and don't know what i'm talking about

IMHO – This is not a good way to teach, a graduate not knowing what an RSL (along with the rest of the gear) is or how it works is a good example of instructors not doing their job – TEACHING…
I feel so strongly about this issue I am just going to leave it alone, but honestly it makes me sick…

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Lindsey 0]

Always? What if you have a "reason" to pull that low or not at all? For instance, I've had someone tell about they're almost double total for instance (rigging error, 2nd reserve pin couldn't release without damaging the reserve housing, which she did!), or people that are otherwise busy the entire time to fix the problem trying to get the reserve (or any canopy) to open. Personally I don't see any reason to ground people like that, they didn't "wait" for the cypres fire, kept fixing a problem they should've cutaway from for too long or simply pulled too low.

It doesn't matter if there was a "reason." Grounding is not punishment for misbehavior (or shouldn't be in this situation), but an opportunity for that jumper to seriously brush up on some needed skills and gain some awareness. If there's a reason that you pulled low enough for a cypres to fire, then you need to figure out what to do for that not to happen again. Remediation. We all need it sometimes....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[AFFI 0]

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Grounding is not punishment for misbehavior (or shouldn't be in this situation), but an opportunity for that jumper to brush up on some needed skills and gain some awareness. Remediation. We all need it sometimes....

Well put!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[larrypen 0]

I had something of that nature happen on my DZ a while back and every body started yelling ground her give her the three finger sign ( Bowling).After talking to her she just plain forget no malice or intent. Just a severve case of the Dumb Ass, what I ASKED her to do was to write me a complete report on how the parachute system worked and let me know when she would be ready to give the equiptment refersher to some out of date jumpers.( With a instructor there of course) The written report was text book. After several times she was as smooth as a pelled oinon. This was 4 years ago she is now a AFF I.. Just a thought

Larry Pennington

[Tonto 1]

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I know in Sweden, she would be banned from the sport, FOR LIFE. Cause.. theoretically you are dead.
I think the rule there is if you land conscious from a Cypres save, you can sell your gear and you will never be allowed to jump in Sweden again.

Pretty much the same in South Africa.

We had one at our DZ, and he's gone. Out of the sport.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[MB38 0]

This should be a grounding until she has taken a FJC, or a DCBM if she refuses. Then again, I don't have enough experience to say something like that. I just can't imagine getting to that experience level without understanding the basics.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[dan_iv 0]

There may be a deficiency between the two A license proficiency cards. I myself used the 2 page card http://uspa.org/publications/form.pdf/ALicProfCard08-05.pdf which states the follwoing below. In the 4 http://uspa.org/publications/form.pdf/ALicProgCardISP08-05.pdf page proficiency card there is NO reference of an RSL at all.

on the 'A' license proficiency card under the "Equipment Knowledge" section it states clearly the following. "Demonstrate the understanding, use, and disconnection of a reserve static line".

so here is my opinion (if the student used the 2 page proficiency card...

1. either the student did demonstrate that at the time they received their 'A' license. in which case the student could not recall the proper EP' due to stress under the situation, or a fair amount of time between getting there license and this particular jump where EP's had not been pratcticed for a good period of time.

2. the student never properly demonstrated that they understood. in which case it is clearly a deficiency of the instructor to ensure the student met the A license requirement.

If the student used the 4 page proficiency card then it may be several different things that failed the student. in part it could be that 'the system failed her', or a compination of the above.

just my 2 cents

[lowie 0]

Just my .02 worth but at 100+ jumps if I did this I would expect a lenghty grounding. In fact if it was me I think I'd be trying to come up with some sort of BS to try and mitigate it. IMHO this jumper either didnt even know that they had done wrong or suffered from stage fright at the key time.

I certainly dont know all there is to know - far from it but this is the basics. If you have gotten to 100 jumps with out knowing the standard ep's then what else is missing in you info set.

[goose491 0]

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To everyone that thinks she should be grounded because she didn't learn everything about her gear and make sure she understood everything, I have a challenge. I bet I know something about your gear that you do not. Does that mean you are just as guilty as this jumper and should be grounded?

That is silly.

Knowing to pull BOTH your handles in an emergency is a pretty fundamental piece of knowledge in this game.

Also silly (and risky), is putting her right back up in the sky without knowing and correcting what other pieces of important information she might be missing.

People (you included) are saying she shouldn't be punished because it could be a case of poor education. I vote a grounding... on the basis of poor education. It's not as a punishment for what she did not know, but rather to make sure she does knows what she needs to before going up again.

Like a recall on a vehicle because of some defect. Nobody claims that they purposely released the vehicle with the defect... but God knows how many more incidents will be caused if they don't fix 'em all. No jumper should be allowed on a plane, who does not know their EPs.

Anyway, I'm gald she's still around.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Blue2003 0]

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Just my .02 worth but at 100+ jumps if I did this I would expect a lenghty grounding. In fact if it was me I think I'd be trying to come up with some sort of BS to try and mitigate it. IMHO this jumper either didnt even know that they had done wrong or suffered from stage fright at the key time.

I certainly dont know all there is to know - far from it but this is the basics. If you have gotten to 100 jumps with out knowing the standard ep's then what else is missing in you info set.

When I went through AFF and failed jumps or couldn't answer equipment, ep proc etc. My instructors would never let me slide. I carried some big resentments for a while. Now I am so grateful. Now 200 jumps later I am still learning everyday. I aslo have a SO who pushes me to practice my EPs brfore every jump. He has well over 500 and I have never seen him get reqady to exit without the last thing being EP practice. We talked about this last night and he said he was told yea here is your cypress here is how it works, now after you turn it on at the DZ forget you have it. SKydiving safly is my responsibility to myself and those who love me. I would if I were that jumper politly ask fellow jumpers to let me learn from my instructor and not ride me too hard. If she learned it, it is obviouly time to relearn. If she never learned it, thank God she lived and it is not too late. Sometime people are quick to say "bowling". Soem said it to me and about me. The few that believed in my work ethic stayed with me, kept me safe and to this day my old instructors are right there with "Blue do you know what you did wrong and that jump?" Sometimes I do sometimes I don't. But I always am willing to listen. When I am perfect maybe I'll stop but who is perfect??? Stay safe, have faith, and don't be careful how you judge. Someday we could make a mistake, if we are lucky enough to live, then rely on those that came before you to teach you how to never let it happen again.

"Cloudy Skies look different through skydivers eyes. Is that a hole in the clouds I see?" Let's get driving!

Blue Skies and Sweet Dreams