2 journalists shot dead on live TV in Virginia.

[kallend 1,349]

Your view of what comprises normal healthy human behavior seems to be quite different from mine.

Perhaps it's all the lawyering you do that has given you a distorted lens to look through.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Bolas 5]

rehmwa

******stop politicians and public figures from flaming those ridiculous debates for no other reason that to create division and anger

It's worse as they create policies and laws differentiating groups and their treatment.

you know that statement and statements like that are now considered "indirect racism"?

you just as well have said something inflammatory like "I try to be color blind", or the horrible "I judge people as individuals"

Ya mean like this? Racist and sexist.

Quote

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal."

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 1,951]

> This was clearly premeditated with a manifesto and documentation. The guy
>was fucking nuts.

So the ability to plan far in advance, and to make and execute a plan is evidence of insanity? Generally the opposite is true. Someone who is capable of understanding the consequences of their actions, and can plan their present and future actions to achieve a goal, is generally considered sane. Indeed, one of the definitions of insane is "not capable of understanding the consequences of their actions" - and that definitely does not apply to this guy.

Legally, insanity is a malfunction of someone's brain that results in the inability to comprehend the illegality of their actions, or an inability to stop themselves from acting on an impulse. It does not mean "normally functioning people who do bad things."

[quade 2]

billvon

Legally, insanity is a malfunction of someone's brain that results in the inability to comprehend the illegality of their actions, or an inability to stop themselves from acting on an impulse. It does not mean "normally functioning people who do bad things."

Bill, you're being obtuse. This person was not a "normally functioning" person.

If plotting murders in advance and carrying them out was representative on "normally functioning people" then there would be a lot more dead people.

"Normally functioning people" may from time-to-time jokingly say something, they may even get angry, however the one thing they do not do is write manifestos, plot and kill people while documenting it on video for uploads to YouTube.

It doesn't mean the guy was an imbecile incapable of carrying out a plan, but simply there was a part of his brain that was absolutely not functioning normally.

BTW, I don't think I used the word "insanity"; I believe I used the words "fucking nuts" which, although not a legally defined term is still perfectly accurate in this case regardless of the parsing you or others want to attempt to give it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 1,951]

>If plotting murders in advance and carrying them out was representative on
>"normally functioning people" then there would be a lot more dead people.

During wars, that is the job of the sniper. But then we don't call it murder, and we give such people medals.

>"Normally functioning people" may from time-to-time jokingly say something,
>they may even get angry, however the one thing they do not do is write
>manifestos, plot and kill people while documenting it on video for uploads to
>YouTube.

Nor do they pierce their backs, attach a parachute to the piercings and jump off a bridge. Nor do they jump off cliffs attempting to get as close as possible to ledges. Nor do they go to Thailand, get in an airplane, climb to 25,000 feet and jump out without oxygen. Again, defining "insane" (or even "fucking nuts") as "something almost no one does" is a non-starter.

>It doesn't mean the guy was an imbecile incapable of carrying out a plan, but
>simply there was a part of his brain that was absolutely not functioning
>normally.

People kill people. We've done it for millennia. Just because we have now reached a level of civilization where it's (finally) abnormal does not mean that people who do it are insane. Indeed, we put people good at murder to good use during wars.

[quade 2]

billvon

>If plotting murders in advance and carrying them out was representative on
>"normally functioning people" then there would be a lot more dead people.

During wars, that is the job of the sniper. But then we don't call it murder, and we give such people medals.

You're right! We call it "defending your country" and it's a government sanctioned activity.

Did we want to go down that road again?

The false equivalency arguments are simply silly.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

He passed a background check. Apparently never got arrested. Never had a diagnosis of anything. Government sanctioned his purchase of a firearm. Looks like the only time he had any trouble with government sanctioning was when he shot some people.

I've written all along that he knew how to toe the line. He was a royal asshole. You call it mentally ill. We all know that if a person throws cat shit at a house that he's going to blow people away.

But you are right. I think any application for a background check should include the question, "have you ever been accused throwing cat feces at a house?" Should the answer be yes then, by all means, this person is insane and a threat to blow people away.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

quade

***No, doing any of those things do not, BY THEMSELVES, make you insane. Neither does killing people.

Who was talking about "just" killing people though? That doesn't apply at all to this case. This was by no means simply a killing. This was not simply a crime of passion or heat of the moment. This was clearly premeditated with a manifesto and documentation.

The guy was fucking nuts.

Ah. So he was nuts because he premeditated it and told the world why he did it. Okay. I'm sure that he would be found not guilty by reason of insanity. I mean, what sane person ever premeditates a murder?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[yoink 321]

Anvilbrother

As for prevention. Let's get all the details and see who all knew about his mental state first. I am betting his co workers or family knew something was going on but did not act.

So my solution is based on that supposition too, but you're not going to like it...

We have apps to report people for wasting water in california. Why not an app to report people?

If you think someone is in need of help, use the app to report them - once a certain number of unique reports are generated for an individual it prompts an investigation or possibly a visit. (There are conceivable a sliding scale of next steps from 'monitor them' to 'send out the cops').

Official reports from employers could be given more credence and weighting than from joe public.

I can already see massive problems with this (personal privacy aside), and don't suggest this is exactly how it would work, but somehow we need a way to identify people who may be a risk or require help and then start intervening in a small way but with some route of escalation.

It's a horrific big-brotheresque solution which would require a large investment in some agency to do all the work.

[quade 2]

lawrocket

******No, doing any of those things do not, BY THEMSELVES, make you insane. Neither does killing people.

Who was talking about "just" killing people though? That doesn't apply at all to this case. This was by no means simply a killing. This was not simply a crime of passion or heat of the moment. This was clearly premeditated with a manifesto and documentation.

The guy was fucking nuts.

Ah. So he was nuts because he premeditated it and told the world why he did it. Okay. I'm sure that he would be found not guilty by reason of insanity. I mean, what sane person ever premeditates a murder?

I never remotely suggested he should be excused via a sanity defense. Your words and supposition, not mine.

I said, the guy was, "fucking nuts." I stand by that. It's not a "legal opinion" or defined in any psychology text book, but it does happen to be how I feel.

Deal with it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[lawrocket 3]

quade

*********No, doing any of those things do not, BY THEMSELVES, make you insane. Neither does killing people.

aa

Who was talking about "just" killing people though? That doesn't apply at all to this case. This was by no means simply a killing. This was not simply a crime of passion or heat of the moment. This was clearly premeditated with a manifesto and documentation.

The guy was fucking nuts.

Ah. So he was nuts because he premeditated it and told the world why he did it. Okay. I'm sure that he would be found not guilty by reason of insanity. I mean, what sane person ever premeditates a murder?

I never remotely suggested he should be excused via a sanity defense. Your words and supposition, not mine.

I said, the guy was, "fucking nuts." I stand by that.

And I say he was a fucking asshole. We can agree to disagree.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[winsor 135]

Amazon

How would spaying and neutering the undesirables work for ya

If you love them, spay them.

[RonD1120 54]

Some random thoughts regarding the discussion:

1. The psychiatric definition of mental illness is not necessarily the legal definition of mental illness. I believe that is true in most states.

2. HIPAA law comes into account when searching out all medical records including psychiatric records.

3. There is no accountability on the background check form when purchasing a firearm. Lying on the form is easy.

4. Although more sensationalized, the murder rate is declining in the U.S.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 981]

RonD1120

4. Although more sensationalized, the murder rate is declining in the U.S.

But I thought murder was evil, and "Just signs of the times. As lawrocket stated, it is evil and evil is gaining ground.
"?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SkyDekker 910]

Quote

Legally, insanity is a malfunction of someone's brain that results in the inability to comprehend the illegality of their actions, or an inability to stop themselves from acting on an impulse. It does not mean "normally functioning people who do bad things."

In this case he texted a friend soon after the shooting, saying he had done a bad thing.

So, sounds like he knew what he was going to do was bad but was unable to stop the impulse.

[kallend 1,349]

billvon

> This was clearly premeditated with a manifesto and documentation. The guy
>was fucking nuts.

So the ability to plan far in advance, and to make and execute a plan is evidence of insanity? Generally the opposite is true. Someone who is capable of understanding the consequences of their actions, and can plan their present and future actions to achieve a goal, is generally considered sane. Indeed, one of the definitions of insane is "not capable of understanding the consequences of their actions" - and that definitely does not apply to this guy.

Legally, insanity is a malfunction of someone's brain that results in the inability to comprehend the illegality of their actions, or an inability to stop themselves from acting on an impulse. It does not mean "normally functioning people who do bad things."

Mentally ill <> insane.

The guy was clearly delusional and believed he was being persecuted. Doesn't mean he was legally insane. That is a strawman, Bill.

www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/national/former-boss-gunman-was-a-professional-victim/2015/08/28/ce50139e-4d6e-11e5-80c2-106ea7fb80d4_video.html

www.nydailynews.com/news/national/vester-flanagan-outraged-common-phrases-racist-article-1.2340393

He was NOT a normally functioning person. Normally functioning people don't throw feces at their neighbors (except, apparently, in Fresno and San Diego).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

Normally functioning people don't throw feces at their neighbors.

If any neighbor's dog poops in my yard and they don't clean it up, you can bet on it that those feces WILL be thrown at them.

(or at least daintily flipped back at them with a sidewalk scraper)

So in your book then. I should be restricted in owning private property of my choice?



Actually I like the CONCEPT of the app idea,

except for the clear abuse aspect - Say ONE THING in the slightly wrong and non-PC way, and then the 'social justice' internet posse overloads the app with your name - related to the issue or not. The internet has create an incredible pile of self righteous vigilantes that have no concept of the difference between favoritism, popularity, bullying, vigilantism - vs true justice. And they are willing to do anything to just feel slightly better about themselves by tearing others down on a whim.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,349]

rehmwa

*** Normally functioning people don't throw feces at their neighbors.

If any neighbor's dog poops in my yard and they don't clean it up, you can bet on it that those feces WILL be thrown at them.

(or at least daintily flipped back at them with a sidewalk scraper)



He was NOT a normally functioning person. Normally functioning people don't throw feces at their neighbors (except, apparently, in Fresno and San Diego and Bill Rehm's home town).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,349]

rehmwa

*** Normally functioning people don't throw feces at their neighbors.

If any neighbor's dog poops in my yard and they don't clean it up, you can bet on it that those feces WILL be thrown at them.

(or at least daintily flipped back at them with a sidewalk scraper)

So in your book then. I should be restricted in owning private property of my choice?





Do you also flip out if someone says "Have a nice day" to you? Do you have fits of uncontrolled anger so people avoid you? Are you unable to hold down a job on account of being impossible to work with? Has your boss told you to seek medical help? ALL OF THESE AND MORE apply to the shooter in this case.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 428]

We're going to have to notify the authorities now, based on that post.

[wmw999 1,727]

Quote

We're going to have to notify the authorities now, based on that post.

OMG!! I actually met rehmwa -- he seems like such a nice guy . So normal. I'd've never thought it of him.

Maybe I can go on Jerry Springer with my story.


Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,349]

lawrocket

He passed a background check. Apparently never got arrested. Never had a diagnosis of anything. Government sanctioned his purchase of a firearm. Looks like the only time he had any trouble with government sanctioning was when he shot some people.

All that does is demonstrate that the background check has been turned into a toothless Mickey Mouse process courtesy of the gun lobby. There were red flags all over for this guy.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,349]

lawrocket

******No, doing any of those things do not, BY THEMSELVES, make you insane. Neither does killing people.

Who was talking about "just" killing people though? That doesn't apply at all to this case. This was by no means simply a killing. This was not simply a crime of passion or heat of the moment. This was clearly premeditated with a manifesto and documentation.

The guy was fucking nuts.

Ah. So he was nuts because he premeditated it and told the world why he did it. Okay. I'm sure that he would be found not guilty by reason of insanity. I mean, what sane person ever premeditates a murder?

Mentally ill <> legally insane. That is a strawman.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[wolfriverjoe 1,098]

kallend

***He passed a background check. Apparently never got arrested. Never had a diagnosis of anything. Government sanctioned his purchase of a firearm. Looks like the only time he had any trouble with government sanctioning was when he shot some people.

All that does is demonstrate that the background check has been turned into a toothless Mickey Mouse process courtesy of the gun lobby. There were red flags all over for this guy.

Considering how few people are prosecuted for falsifying the application (which is supposed to be "punishable by 10 years in prison"), I think it's the government that has made the process "toothless."

I have yet to hear of anyone suggesting that the background checks be tightened up. Only that they apply to all sales.

While I agree that this guy had "all sorts of red flags", what do you suggest?
Denying someone constitutional rights based on "red flags"? Penalty before conviction of any crime? Without due process?

While I don't like what happened here, I like the prospect of the above even less.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

Do you also flip out if someone says "Have a nice day" to you? is it sincere? or are they being snarky and mooning me at the same time?

Do you have fits of uncontrolled anger so people avoid you? it's a great way to be left alone to work Are you unable to hold down a job on account of being impossible to work with? why? do you know of any openings in academia? Has your boss told you to seek medical help? mayyyyyybe ALL OF THESE AND MORE apply to the shooter in this case.

I agree, he raised ALL the flags - how do you intend we all start reporting on each other? I put forth the incredible abuse that could result if it was just a free for all. So it comes down to do you trust the entire range of the republic (I explicitly wrote that instead of "the average citizen") to be responsible and caring in their ability to tattle on each other that is more helpful than damaging.

I don't get the vibe from you that think people are smart enough to handle this.

I think people en masse are bullies and this would be abused to the extreme - I could see a lot of posters here reporting on each other just for disagreeing on subjective stuff completely unrelated to potential for violence. We saw someone completely petty put Philly Kev out of a job for cripes sake.

You post a (great) vision, but not a workable process - that's easy. (Everyone) agrees to want to keep guns out of the hands of nutters and violent types - that's not the issue - the issue is what process is workable that does that? I have no idea of one that is effective enough that doesn't shit all over all the good guys.

wolfriverjoe is the most reasonable posts here so far frankly on the topic - he's 100% right that politicization of the issue keeps great ideas, like the NRA's offers to give training to kids, from having a true positive effect. But others as well.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants