How was Bush better than Obama / How is Obama better than Bush

[wmw999 2,178]

OK, there seems to be no dearth of opinions here; how about a nice set of point-by-point comparisons?

You can't say something like "Bush is honorable and Obama isn't," some sort of justification or example or expansion on the point is needed. Preferably something logical, but that might be stretching it

If you think they're of roughly equal quality, fine. But even then, there are probably things you like better about one or the other. Feel free to list them, and maybe have one of each.

I pretty much always think it's interesting to find out how people come to the conclusions they do.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Dantes 0]

+1 Obama. Making an honest attempt at diplomacy in the Middle East, and taking a hands-off approach. Israel doesn't seem to be a fan of this approach, but it seems to be working...a more neutral stance benefits our country directly. I still shudder at the thought of John McCain singing,"bomb, bomb Iran."

[Amazon 7]

wmw999

OK, there seems to be no dearth of opinions here; how about a nice set of point-by-point comparisons?

You can't say something like "Bush is honorable and Obama isn't," some sort of justification or example or expansion on the point is needed. Preferably something logical, but that might be stretching it

If you think they're of roughly equal quality, fine. But even then, there are probably things you like better about one or the other. Feel free to list them, and maybe have one of each.

I pretty much always think it's interesting to find out how people come to the conclusions they do.

Wendy P.

Ok I will give Bush props.. he has superior brush cutting skillz.

[quade 3]

The 43rd Administration under the direction of VP Cheney (I won't say GWB himself because I now believe he was simply a puppet), was unquestionably better for the military industrial complex. It was able to successfully funnel billions upon billions of dollars into that part of the private sector. They (the signatory members of the PNAC *) had been attempting to do this for a number of years with no success whatsoever and when handed the excuse of 9/11, took it, turned it upside down, and shook every last cent they could out of it.

So . . . bravo for them.

About the only things I can really respect GWB himself for are his work for AIDs relief in Africa, and not pardoning Scooter Libby when it appears GWB finally figured out how badly he had been played.

I truly believe that once you understand what the PNAC was (and still is), everything else falls into place.










* http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5527.htm
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Project_for_the_New_American_Century

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wmw999 2,178]

Both spend too much money. However, for me Obama is better because he seems not to be trying so hard to find a war to get into. I can't forgive Bush for Iraq. He got 9-11 handed to him, but he really wanted Iraq.

And, frankly, his administration seemed to foster a "you're either with us or against us/traitor" response. I understand the "if you disagree with Obama you're a racist" meme, but it seems to apply to the disagreements that involve foaming at the mouth.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[winsor 192]

wmw999

Both spend too much money. However, for me Obama is better because he seems not to be trying so hard to find a war to get into. I can't forgive Bush for Iraq. He got 9-11 handed to him, but he really wanted Iraq.

And, frankly, his administration seemed to foster a "you're either with us or against us/traitor" response. I understand the "if you disagree with Obama you're a racist" meme, but it seems to apply to the disagreements that involve foaming at the mouth.

Wendy P.

I agree that the adventure in Iraq was an exercise in idiocy/delusion. Having said that, I think the overall question of which CIC is 'better' is on a par with trying to get a consensus as to whether feline or canine feces is preferable.

I say they are both utterly abhorrent, and speak badly for the process by which we populate the Oval Office. The only thing that may be worse is who we choose to represent us in Congress - but again, it's a matter of which outhouse smells the worst after heavy use on a hot afternoon.

In any event, both Bush and Obama are beneath contempt for their own reasons and I do not think either is an improvement on the other.


BSBD,

Winsor

[ryoder 1,412]

quade

The 43rd Administration under the direction of VP Cheney (I won't say GWB himself because I now believe he was simply a puppet)...

Quote

...and not pardoning Scooter Libby when it appears GWB finally figured out how badly he had been played.

Agreed.
From some things I've been watching and reading recently, I do believe GWB starting waking up during his second term and realizing his mistake in letting Cheney, Rumsfeld & Company have their way.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[jgoose71 0]

There really is 2 ways to judge Obama, foreign and domestic policies.

On foreign policies, I would give him mixed reviews. His withdrawal from the foreign arena has left some voids that have been filled with some real assholes, but at the same time, the U.S. cannot afford to continue as the world police. If other countries (especially Europe) have any real interest in world peace, they are going to have to step up. The U.S. cannot continue to fund the world in this respect.

On domestic issues, he has been a complete failure. The over implementation of regulations and extremely high corporate taxes has driven jobs overseas. And his divisive politics has put the rift between the democrats and the republicans at an all time high and race relations at an all time low.

Being the cool kid in high school and college does not necessarily qualify you to run a country.

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[Stumpy 256]

Obama comes across infinitely better to the overseas observer in general, and especially with foreign policy in mind. Bush seemed to personify the "'MURICA" meme, and by going into Iraq under false pretences caused many round the world a lot of pain that won't be forgiven quickly.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[turtlespeed 212]

To be honest, I think they are remarkably similar.

They both did a lot of harm to the financial state of the union.

They both made horrid policies, foreign and domestic.

Neither one fixed the immigration debauchery.

They are surrounded by people that they owe, and use/used their office to supplement those debt payments.

I'd say they are about equal at the moment, but Obama has a little time left.

We will see what he does with it.

My suspicion is that he will disregard the law in ways that are new and unprecedented. That is probably my bias showing, but he hasn't really shown any slowing down on his pick and choose attitude on which laws he chooses to have Holder enforce and which ones he doesn't.

I think his ultimate decision to blame a known terrorist attack on a youtube video sparking a "spontaneous demonstration" was a huge mistake.

I think his Aloofness when it came to managing the healthcare disaster is telling.

I think he will ultimately end up below Bush in the end. When the final hand is played and all the BS from his administration comes out.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 3]

A lot of what you said is subjective and there's no way to refute your subjective opinion. However, this particular bit;

turtlespeed

They both did a lot of harm to the financial state of the union.

Is simply not supported by facts. The numbers don't lie.

DJIA
https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1410063869357&chddm=1347718&chls=IntervalBasedLine&q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&ntsp=0&ei=wd0LVLDSCYKuqAHcsIGQAQ

Unemployment
https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=Linear&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1410064273039&chddm=1517471&q=GOOGLEINDEX_US:UNEMPL&&ei=g98LVODQLpLfqAHGm4CwAQ

Are things perfect under Obama? No. Certainly not.
Are they better than the hand he was dealt? Yes. Not for everybody to be sure, but as a country on the whole; yes.

The entire world is changing. We are struggling to hold on to our financial domination, but the country (not necessarily individuals) is still in a better place financially than it was when Obama was first sworn in. Some individuals are doing better than ever. Sadly, a lot are also doing worse than ever. The country though, which is what I can only assume you meant by "financial state of the union", is doing at least a bit better.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Dantes 0]

turtlespeed

I think he will ultimately end up below Bush in the end. When the final hand is played and all the BS from his administration comes out.

I'm not sure about that. I think history is going to be much more unkind to GWB. He oversaw two wars that he put on a credit card (one of which was a total sham), massive expansion of the MI complex, the erosion of rights/privacy on an unprecedented scale, and held office during a financial orgy that led to the worst economic crisis in 80 years. His administration has effectively dealt the death blow to the GOP. The GOP has pandered to the far-right for too long --- and will slowly be relegated to a regional party. This, combined with demographic shifts and I doubt that we will see another Republican President for a few decades.

Obama really hasn't fucked up, at all. Increased government spending is a problem, but at least much of it is being spent domestically, rather than killing brown people. The Affordable Care Act was designed from the beginning to fail. He even said in a speech to a large union in Detroit that the ACA was an interim step to a single-payer system. In five years no one will even give a shit about whatever happened in Benghazi. So barring the whole immigration wild card, I'd say Mr. Obama is going to be celebrated by historians.

[turtlespeed 212]

quade

A lot of what you said is subjective and there's no way to refute your subjective opinion. However, this particular bit;

***They both did a lot of harm to the financial state of the union.

Is simply not supported by facts. The numbers don't lie.

DJIA
https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=maximized&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1410063869357&chddm=1347718&chls=IntervalBasedLine&q=INDEXDJX:.DJI&ntsp=0&ei=wd0LVLDSCYKuqAHcsIGQAQ

Unemployment
https://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=1&chdd=1&chds=1&chdv=1&chvs=Linear&chdeh=0&chfdeh=0&chdet=1410064273039&chddm=1517471&q=GOOGLEINDEX_US:UNEMPL&&ei=g98LVODQLpLfqAHGm4CwAQ

Are things perfect under Obama? No. Certainly not.
Are they better than the hand he was dealt? Yes. Not for everybody to be sure, but as a country on the whole; yes.

The entire world is changing. We are struggling to hold on to our financial domination, but the country (not necessarily individuals) is still in a better place financially than it was when Obama was first sworn in. Some individuals are doing better than ever. Sadly, a lot are also doing worse than ever. The country though, which is what I can only assume you meant by "financial state of the union", is doing at least a bit better.

I meant this:(From Factcheck.org) emphasis mine

The economy continues to gain jobs, but the number of long-term unemployed is nearly double what it was when Obama became president.

Wages remain stagnant, increasing a scant 0.3 percent after inflation during Obama’s time. Meanwhile corporate profits are running 178 percent higher than just before he took office, and stock prices have doubled.

The number of low-income persons on food stamps remains just below the record level reached in 2012, with 15 percent of the population still getting benefits.

Health care spending has increased 15.8 percent under Obama, which is faster than inflation but modest by historical standards. But there’s scant evidence that the Affordable Care Act is causing the slowdown. The government economists and statisticians who track the spending said the law’s impact has been “minimal.”

U.S. exports have gone up just 34 percent — leaving the president far short of his announced goal of doubling them by the end of this year.

The number of people held prisoner at Guantanamo — which the president once ordered closed by January 2010 — is down only 36 percent.

The federal debt owed to the public has nearly doubled since Obama was sworn in, increasing by 95 percent.

The last one being the most significant.

I believe he said this:

The problem is, is that the way Bush has done it over the last eight years is to take out a credit card from the Bank of China in the name of our children, driving up our national debt from $5 trillion for the first 42 presidents – #43 added $4 trillion by his lonesome, so that we now have over $9 trillion of debt that we are going to have to pay back — $30,000 for every man, woman and child. That’s irresponsible. It’s unpatriotic

If it was unpatriotic then, what is it now?

. . . but that aside - it disturbs me to no end that the upper 1% is being dealt the golden hand in this card game.

I guess if Obama owes you for his election . . . the Lanisters ALWAYS pay their debts.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Stumpy 256]

Dantes

The Affordable Care Act was designed from the beginning to fail.

People always say this but I think its a misreading of the system. I'd articulate it as the best way forward in a bad situation. The right was always going to oppose any change at all, laughably saying there was no issue with the existing system. I think history will look very kindly on Obama, as the president who actually did something about a fucked up situation rather than simply going "I'm alright Jack" and sticking his head in the sand.
Yes - ACA is not perfect - it was never going to be with the obstacles it had, but it moves the goalposts in the right direction. Hopefully the next administrations, be they Republican, Democrat, or anything else, will continue to build on and improve it.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[jclalor 12]

Quote

About the only things I can really respect GWB himself for are his work for AIDs relief in Africa, and not pardoning Scooter Libby when it appears GWB finally figured out how badly he had been played.

I felt that way about W and the billions he gave to Africa for AIDs prevention and treatment, then I learned how he tied in all the money to "abcinance only" teaching by the recipient countries.

Not granting a pardon to Scooter Libby was the best move W ever made, by not granting the pardon, W managed to salvage any semblance to integrity he may have ever had.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

wmw999

OK, there seems to be no dearth of opinions here; how about a nice set of point-by-point comparisons?

43 didn't try to ban the most popular rifle in the country, didn't increase taxes on business wins 59% with a try for 100%, and didn't precipitate radically increased health care costs (although that was more a matter of opportunity - like Obama he also signed PhRMA supported legislation to funnel $1T of tax dollars a decade into industry pockets).

Obama kills a lot fewer foreigners.

Otherwise they're about the same - corporatists, for big government, against civil rights.

[Tink1717 2]

They are two sides of the same coin. They are both corporate owned politicians. The worst of Bush is continued and expanded under Obama.

The expansion of NSA/CIA/???? warrantless spying, the redition and torture by subcontracting nations, rewarding too big to fail and other criminal business operatons, shededing of jobs that pay living wages in favor of partime minimum wage jobs.

I see zero difference.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[aphid 0]

From an outside perspective, and just my opinion;

Bush and his Administrations foreign interventions and Homeland Security expansion were viewed as both dangerous and damaging to America's reputation abroad.

Obama has been, in a word, a disappointment. The currency of goodwill he enjoyed both internationally and domestically when initially elected has effectively devalued to almost nothing.

Ultimately I think history will be very critical of Bush, Cheney, et al. Obama's presidency will be regarded simply as wasted opportunity.

That's my $.02.

[D22369 0]

the president of the USA is merely a puppet with someone's else pulling the strings - been that way for a long time.

Both have fuckups on their records.

But being accused of racism when I don't like what Obama is doing pisses me off.

so by default +1 Bush

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[kallend 1,683]

D22369

the president of the USA is merely a puppet with someone's else pulling the strings - been that way for a long time.



Roy

It's a pity that there wasn't a US version of "Yes Prime Minster". It was funny because it was basically true - the ostensible "leader" is at the mercy of the mandarins of the establishment.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

Stumpy

Obama comes across infinitely better to the overseas observer in general, and especially with foreign policy in mind. Bush seemed to personify the "'MURICA" meme, and by going into Iraq under false pretences caused many round the world a lot of pain that won't be forgiven quickly.

This is true. Obama managed to obtain the first accord beteen Israel and the rest of the Middle East since Israel came into existence. Hamas, Israel, Egypt, Jordan. They all agreed that US policy was idiotic and announced by an idiot in John Kerry.

Like it or not, the US has tanked in overseas relevance and power since 2000. Bush was thought of as a dunce. Obama is thought of as a douche. And his foreign policy of "don't do stupid shit" is stupid shit.

I list Obama as worse. Because I had greater expectations. We all knew what we had with Bush. Nobody knew we had Bush with Obama. Well, Obama was equal parts of Dubya, Carter and Ford with a hefty dose of Nixon every now and then. He couldn't have handled the Middle East worse than he did. His domestic policy has been a "don't do stupid shit." He waits for the Courts to do the right thing then takes credit.

I thought he'd be different. He wasn't. That's why he's worse. He's Bush, but more so.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[mirage62 0]

I was a silent supporter of Obama, and a loud supporter of Bush at the start of their first term. Both were shit, in their on way. When both their parties had control go congress they did stupied shit.

Obama has been a great racial divider, Bush spent like a drunk sailor.

As pointed out by others not from America, Obama WAS loved at the start.... Now look at it.

I'll go Bush but really they both suck, I do love the Obama lovers here that just support no matter what.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[DanG 1]

Quote

The over implementation of regulations and extremely high corporate taxes has driven jobs overseas.

Have corporate taxes actually increased under Obama? Was it just the sunsetting of the Bush tax cuts you are talking about?

Either way, it doesn't seem like Obama's America has been that hard on corporations. For instance, this fact quoted by turtlespeed:

Quote

Meanwhile corporate profits are running 178 percent higher than just before he took office, and stock prices have doubled.

Quote

And his divisive politics has put the rift between the democrats and the republicans at an all time high

I don't put that at the feet of either party. They are both to blame.

Quote

and race relations at an all time low.

Really? That's Obama's fault? What, exactly, has he done to degrade race relations?

- Dan G

[SkyDekker 1,155]

Bush was much better. He created a war out of smoke and mirrors which lead to the rise of ISIS.

Obama has no where near topped that feat yet.

[mirage62 0]

Quote

Really? That's Obama's fault? What, exactly, has he done to degrade race relations?

Well in general Obama has been much more aggressive in comments, inserting himself in legal matters. Some may say it was needed and helpful to people of color but almost all have had a negative effect on race relations.

To be specific: The "beer summit" comes to mind.
The "If I had a son, he could have look like this" (words to that effect)

Again being the first black man elected he very well may feel that it is his responsibility to change things.

Before the lefties go ape shit..... I have NO problem with you supporting his actions, the question was has his actions damaged relationships....for some people Obama seems to be very supportive of one race.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little