9yr old girl and Uzi

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

Yet they oppose any laws for the same requirments that they demand on their own range?

Care to elaborate? Truly not asking a sarcastic question here. I am curious where you got the information behind the statement.

[kallend 1,623]

RonD1120

******A case of inexperience and incompetence, much the same as trying to swoop a pond when you don't know how.

How much experience and competence do you expect in a 9 year old?

Not much, the burden of experience and competence rests with the instructor, now deceased.

The instructor was a veteran who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and had been a firearms instructor for years. Apparently this isn't enough experience and competence.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

It is entirely possible to disagree with somebody and NOT want the government to be involved.

100% with you here.

But I find that's a bad assumption with most of the posters here. Or at least it seems like it.

(too bad you have to clarify that point, but I don't assume anything on this forum along those lines any more)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

Boomerdog

Quote

Yet they oppose any laws for the same requirments that they demand on their own range?

Care to elaborate? Truly not asking a sarcastic question here. I am curious where you got the information behind the statement.

he's referring to the wide range of proposed or implemented requirements around gun purchase process, which have been as extensive as mandating an appointment with the county sheriffs to demonstrate competentcy. The NRA rightfully opposes such a change whose primary intent is to make it difficult for people to complete the sale. I do not know their stance on less obstructionist requirements like making the salesman/customer go over the safety features of the weapon for a few minutes at pickup time.

In between those two is California's HSC card (Handgun Safety Certification), good for 5 years, which replaced the supposed good for life BFSC card, both of which entail a simple DMV like test needed before you can purchase a handgun. To make it interesting, the state has made the availability of the test scarce - on three separate occasions I was unable to take the test at the largest range near SF.

[freethefly 6]

Quote

He was a teacher

Obvious, his ability to instruct was sub par in that he thought it was a good idea to hand a full auto weapon to a child. Any instructor with the mind set that doing such is a good idea needs to re-examine their ability to teach.

I had an Uzi in the early 1980's. Even a semi auto, when slamming out rounds, can be a bear to handle as it wants to fly upwards. Not the type of gun any child should handle.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[RonD1120 58]

kallend

*********A case of inexperience and incompetence, much the same as trying to swoop a pond when you don't know how.

How much experience and competence do you expect in a 9 year old?

Not much, the burden of experience and competence rests with the instructor, now deceased.

The instructor was a veteran who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and had been a firearms instructor for years. Apparently this isn't enough experience and competence.

Obvious conclusion

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[kallend 1,623]

freethefly

Quote

He was a teacher

Obvious, his ability to instruct was sub par in that he thought it was a good idea to hand a full auto weapon to a child. Any instructor with the mind set that doing such is a good idea needs to re-examine their ability to teach.

So you would suggest some kind of self-assessment as to whether you have the ability to teach firearm use.

Perhaps we should do that for AFF too. Let anyone be an AFF instructor who examines their own ability to instruct and concludes that they can do it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RonD1120 58]

kallend

***

Quote

He was a teacher

Obvious, his ability to instruct was sub par in that he thought it was a good idea to hand a full auto weapon to a child. Any instructor with the mind set that doing such is a good idea needs to re-examine their ability to teach.

So you would suggest some kind of self-assessment as to whether you have the ability to teach firearm use.

Perhaps we should do that for AFF too. Let anyone be an AFF instructor who examines their own ability to instruct and concludes that they can do it.

Is that called a strawman?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Stumpy 256]

Boomerdog

I personally would not want to see young children on the range. Yet young children have shot weapons on ranges and safely as well. One very very tragic accident against the many safe and successful occasions and the everyone gets into a hissy fit and debate. The ensuing debate and the chest beating, kevetching etc. IS NOT about this accident, it's about fueling and justifying the gun control crowd to their position of stricter gun control. And with a willing press, it's the same old reaction, the same old story, the same old bromides, the same old crap.

I don't disagree with most of what you said, however the timing of the tweet was.... stupid, to say the least. (The article I actually don't have a problem with generally - written and published well prior to the incident and from what I have skim read - fairly reasonable.)

There is one caveat to this however - sure, take your kids and teach them to shoot a one shot .22 or something else appropriate. Loads of people do that here in NZ as well, particularly in the farming community - I may even do the same myself - 9 might be a bit early in my view, depends a little bit on the boy. Will wait till he takes a serious enough interest in it
But there is no reason a 9 year old (girl or boy - doesn't make that much odds at that age) should be shooting a 9mm full auto. None. It's not about respecting firearms, it's just stupid.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[champu 1]

rehmwa

that instructor failed that little girl miserably (with poor judgment and even worse instruction)

that little girl's parent failed her miserably (by allowing her to train on anything more advanced than a .22 rifle at her age and maturity and physical strength)

Largely agree, but it's not just about the cartridge involved, the fact that the gun was 9 mm wasn't the problem. I might even go so far as to say the fact that the gun was full-auto wasn't the problem. But to have an inexperienced shooter fire an Uzi, Glock 18, etc. specifically and in a standing position (even with one of those skeleton stocks on it) is just not a good idea.

By way of example, the first gun I learned to shoot with was chambered in .45 Colt... but it was a rifle and I shot it from a bench. (It also happened to be lever-action, but I would consider that a "bonus safety feature.")

/edited for spelling

[jakee 1,255]

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I highly doubt the statement was about making it mandatory for everyone regardless of each family's personal preferences. Forcing your personal views on other families is something only the hard right and hard left advocate.

Not true. It's something almost everyone advocates - it's only the type of views that change.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[councilman24 36]

freethefly

Quote

He was a teacher

Obvious, his ability to instruct was sub par in that he thought it was a good idea to hand a full auto weapon to a child. Any instructor with the mind set that doing such is a good idea needs to re-examine their ability to teach.

There was no teaching here. It was a thrill ride. The mind set was to make money. This was a tourist attraction to allow folks to shoot the guns they see on tv and in video games. {You could argue, but I won't, that if full auto firearms weren't restricted fewer folks would be interested and more people would be familiar enough to know not to hand it to a nine year old.} A better analogy to this incident is the lady falling out of the tandem harness. Someone who could/should have been told no, instructors and others who perhaps didn't do their job and a need to cater to the thrill ride customer. Might be called instructors but little instruction goes on with either this gun situation or most tandems. Is this stupider than someone doing a tandem? Sure. But this incident has little to do with gun rights, gun instruction, gun safety or even parenting. (how many vacation parents know their 9 year old can't handle an UZI when) What it does have to do with is greed.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[BartsDaddy 4]

I agree wholeheartedly. The range had other full autos for her to shoot that would have been much safer.
I would not trust the average Marine with a full auto Uzi without a lot more training than that. And the USMC doesn't either for good reasons.

I would rather see her shoot a ma deuce than an Uzi. The ma deuce might scare her more but it is a lot safer being on a tripod.

But if it was my kid I would have waited a few more years before allowing SMG's.
My heart goes out to that little girl as she.will never forget this. And she has done nothing to deserve that pain.

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[stayhigh 2]

I'm pretty sure that the kid will forget about it after couple years, until the day someone goes, "Hey! Let's go shooting!".

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[RMK 3]

It's the US, they don't care about your safety:

..."Of course we're not going to close the range, obviously. We're not going to stop the range operation or the rental of automatic weapons whatsoever. ... What we're kind of kicking around right now is like at Disneyland, if you're not this tall you can't shoot."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/arizona-gun-range_n_5730792.html

However, please don't anyone show a bare woman's breast on television; it will harm the children. WTF? The solution/answer is a plywood cut-out of a cartoon animal with something idiotic like "you must be as tall as the smiling turtle to shoot on full auto"

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[freethefly 6]

kallend

***

Quote

He was a teacher

Obvious, his ability to instruct was sub par in that he thought it was a good idea to hand a full auto weapon to a child. Any instructor with the mind set that doing such is a good idea needs to re-examine their ability to teach.

So you would suggest some kind of self-assessment as to whether you have the ability to teach firearm use.

Perhaps we should do that for AFF too. Let anyone be an AFF instructor who examines their own ability to instruct and concludes that they can do it.

To an extent, yes. I re-assess my ability to perform my job on a daily basis. The day that I can no longer perform my job, I'll quit. Lives and millions of dollars depend on me performing at a high level.

I do know what you are saying, however and, yes, more than self assessment is needed in any critical function as we often miss the faults in ourselves.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[SkyDekker 1,122]

RMK

It's the US, they don't care about your safety:

..."Of course we're not going to close the range, obviously. We're not going to stop the range operation or the rental of automatic weapons whatsoever. ... What we're kind of kicking around right now is like at Disneyland, if you're not this tall you can't shoot."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/arizona-gun-range_n_5730792.html

However, please don't anyone show a bare woman's breast on television; it will harm the children. WTF? The solution/answer is a plywood cut-out of a cartoon animal with something idiotic like "you must be as tall as the smiling turtle to shoot on full auto"

Oh yes, everybody can be trusted with a gun. However, what we cannot allow is people seeing a breast. People will absolutely lose it if they see a breast. That shit is dangerous!

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

***It's the US, they don't care about your safety:

..."Of course we're not going to close the range, obviously. We're not going to stop the range operation or the rental of automatic weapons whatsoever. ... What we're kind of kicking around right now is like at Disneyland, if you're not this tall you can't shoot."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/arizona-gun-range_n_5730792.html

However, please don't anyone show a bare woman's breast on television; it will harm the children. WTF? The solution/answer is a plywood cut-out of a cartoon animal with something idiotic like "you must be as tall as the smiling turtle to shoot on full auto"

Oh yes, everybody can be trusted with a gun. However, what we cannot allow is people seeing a breast. People will absolutely lose it if they see a breast. That shit is dangerous!

so this took an odd, though much appreciated turn in the conversation

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Nah, just a foreigner's perspective on the US. Guns for all, but no breasts, those are too dangerous for society.

[Bolas 5]

SkyDekker

Nah, just a foreigner's perspective on the US. Guns for all, but no breasts, those are too dangerous for society.

Are you proposing a Guns for Tits program?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Bolas

***Nah, just a foreigner's perspective on the US. Guns for all, but no breasts, those are too dangerous for society.

Are you proposing a Guns for Tits program?

As in show me your tits or I'll shoot you with my gun?

Pretty sure that's illegal.

[cgriff 0]

Bolas

Are you proposing a Guns for Tits program?

Ah, kind of like the old Toys for Tatas back home... a little Christmas cheer...

[kelpdiver 2]

RMK

It's the US, they don't care about your safety:

..."Of course we're not going to close the range, obviously. We're not going to stop the range operation or the rental of automatic weapons whatsoever. ... What we're kind of kicking around right now is like at Disneyland, if you're not this tall you can't shoot."

In the UK, you do have accidents, yes? Do you examine the circumstances and look for improvement, or do you just eliminate the venue/activity? You still have dropzones, I understand. Even after that murder occurred.

Height is going to be a poor measure - more about grip strength.

[kallend 1,623]

SkyDekker

Nah, just a foreigner's perspective on the US. Guns for all, but no breasts, those are too dangerous for society.

Hey, some can take your eye out if not handled properly.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jakee 1,255]

Quote

Even after that murder occurred.

Or suicide, no-one really knows.

Funny thing about that analogy though - DZs have age limits

Do you want to have an ideagasm?