Grandfather Gets Arrested for Holding Burglar at Gunpoint While Waiting for Police to Arrive

[regulator 0]

A New Hampshire grandfather has been arrested and is facing a possible prison sentence for firing a shot into the ground and holding a burglar at gunpoint until the cops could arrive. Dennis Fleming, 61, came home on Saturday night to discover that his home had been robbed. He saw the burglar, Joseph Hebert, 27, climbing out of his neighbor’s window. Mr. Fleming yelled, “Freeze!” and fired a shot into the ground before holding the crook at gunpoint.

When the police arrived, they arrested Hebert, but instead of a big old “thank you” and a slap on the back for Fleming, he got arrested too, on a charge of reckless conduct.

Yes, you read that right: A grandfather of 14 was arrested for not letting a criminal escape. What was he supposed to do -- hold him down? Then they probably would have arrested him for assault and battery. Besides, we are talking about a 61-year-old man versus a 27-year-old man. Fleming did the math on that one himself. He told FoxNews:

I didn’t think I could handle this guy physically, so I fired into the ground. He stopped. He knew I was serious. I was angry ... and I was worried that this guy was going to come after me.

The police also seized Fleming’s collection of firearms including seven rifles and a .38-caliber handgun. Just in case any other bad guys out there get it in their minds to rob an unarmed house, keep in mind that Fleming still has his Louisville Slugger.

Vigilantes can be dangerous, and people should not take the law into their own hands. But that’s not what happened here. The police were called and were on their way. Unfortunately, teleportation hasn’t become a reliable source of transportation quite yet, so the cops were not able to spontaneously appear out of thin air to arrest Hebert. Fleming did what he had to do to keep the younger man from escaping and/or harming him. By breaking-and-entering at least two homes, Hebert had already proved that he doesn’t play by the rules. I doubt he would’ve waited around to be arrested just because Fleming said, “Pretty please.”

Americans should have the right to protect their personal property. It’s a keystone to an ordered society. What happens when crooks know that people are unable to defend themselves? Penny Dean of Gun Owners of New Hampshire says, "The fact that this man would be charged is an outrage. Burglars in New Hampshire must know it's open season, since homeowners cannot defend themselves, as evidenced by this case. This is charging the victim."

Here’s to hoping County Attorney Tom Veladi shows some common sense when he reviews this case. People should not have to worry about getting arrested or going to jail for self-defense or for protecting their personal property.

http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/133341/grandfather_gets_arrested_for_holding

[JohnRich 4]

A good example of gun-o-phobia, whereby armed victims are considered to be "criminals" themselves.

Charges were dropped:
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/02/23/charges-dropped-against-nh-man-who-fired-gun-to-stop-burglar/

He never should have been charged in the first place - it was legitimate self-defense.

[Gravitymaster 0]

I'm interested to know if the police, who falsely arrested him are facing any disciplinary actions. Or at the very least, are they recieving updated instructions on how to deal with a situation like this in the future?

[StreetScooby 5]

Did he get his guns back?

We are all engines of karma

[quade 3]

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A good example of gun-o-phobia, whereby armed victims are considered to be "criminals" themselves.

Charges were dropped:
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2012/02/23/charges-dropped-against-nh-man-who-fired-gun-to-stop-burglar/

He never should have been charged in the first place - it was legitimate self-defense.

Was it?

I know if a person has broken into -my- home I can shoot him dead and if I see somebody I witness committing a felony I can try to stop them (I'm not 100% certain how much gun use is allowable in though), however, if I see somebody on my neighbor's property and I -think- they were fleeing . . . is that self-defense?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[wmw999 2,178]

NH is one of the least gun-o-phobic states in the country, with a very high regard for personal freedom. Their motto is "Live Free or Die." Ron posted a previous link to this.

In this case, there was a technical violation, and they looked for a way to make sure it wasn't a violation. The system worked.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[normiss 644]

The story leads one to believe this guy hunted the guy down.
Not sure that should be a given.....I think in my state that would have a slim chance of passing the scrutiny of the legalities.....but this IS in New Hampshire.

[AggieDave 6]

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I'm interested to know if the police, who falsely arrested him are facing any disciplinary actions. Or at the very least, are they recieving updated instructions on how to deal with a situation like this in the future?

I would hope so, but it also depends on that state's law. Part of the problem could have been a big problem. There is really a difference between a technical violation of a law and what the law's intent was.

NH may have some things written into the law that applies that say an "officer shall." Texas has those, mostly in regards to cases of family violence, but in those cases an arrest MUST be made if a violation is found.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[lawrocket 3]

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In this case, there was a technical violation, and they looked for a way to make sure it wasn't a violation. The system worked.

Correct. It's not self-defense when you go to your neighbor's house and threaten a burglar with deadly force. Faced with that, cops have no choice but to arrest the guy.

It sucks, but I don't blame the cops for this.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[chutem 0]

This is a guy I would like to have living next door to me.

James

[mnealtx 0]

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Was it?

I know if a person has broken into -my- home I can shoot him dead

Pretty sure you still need to prove ability, opportunity and jeopardy.

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if I see somebody I witness committing a felony I can try to stop them (I'm not 100% certain how much gun use is allowable in though), however, if I see somebody on my neighbor's property and I -think- they were fleeing . . . is that self-defense?

If you see someone climbing out of the neighbor's window, wouldn't that be breaking and entering, at the least?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[normiss 644]

It would of course....but....no need for deadly force for that.

[quade 3]

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If you see someone climbing out of the neighbor's window, wouldn't that be breaking and entering, at the least?

Hmmm, couldn't that also be breaking out and escaping? Or a wife's lover leaving after he hears the husband coming though the front door?

I'll admit the odds are in favor of the other, but wouldn't it suck to finally escape the clutches of Jeffery Dalmer only to be held at gun point outside his house by the confused grandpa next door? Meanwhile, Jeffy's still pretty hungry.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[crotalus01 0]

"Pretty sure you still need to prove ability, opportunity and jeopardy. "
In TN at least, these are a requirement before deadly force can be used. When I got my CC a long time ago, our instructor actually told us that technically, if you pulled a gun on someone you MUST use it - if you dont shoot, a decent lawyer can successfully argue that you were not in fear of your life (proved by your inaction). Then it becomes a case of assault with a deadly weapon or reckless endangerment. Now, he did say the odds of that charge being brought against you are very slim, but it was a possibility depending on the prosecutor.
We were also told that anytime a gun is pulled or used, you ARE going to jail, self defense or not - you may not be booked and processed, and you may not be charged, but a trip to the pokey is guaranteed. He suggested that in a self defense shooting the best course of action would be to ask to be taken to the hospital to be checked out by a doctor as that would be preferable to spending time in jail waiting on the outcome of the investigation.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[regulator 0]

Dont know if you recall this but he actually had one of his gay lovers escape from his place and someone called the cops and they brought that same person back to jeffery's place where he later killed him that night.

[quade 3]

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Dont know if you recall this but he actually had one of his gay lovers escape from his place and someone called the cops and they brought that same person back to jeffery's place where he later killed him that night.

And this is my point.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AggieDave 6]

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Dont know if you recall this but he actually had one of his gay lovers escape from his place and someone called the cops and they brought that same person back to jeffery's place where he later killed him that night.

And this is my point.

Ok. In that case, if your gay lover escapes, we'll let him flee.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[shropshire 0]

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Was it?

I know if a person has broken into -my- home I can shoot him dead

Pretty sure you still need to prove ability, opportunity and jeopardy.

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if I see somebody I witness committing a felony I can try to stop them (I'm not 100% certain how much gun use is allowable in though), however, if I see somebody on my neighbor's property and I -think- they were fleeing . . . is that self-defense?

If you see someone climbing out of the neighbor's window, wouldn't that be breaking and entering, at the least?

Not necessarily. Could be a work man, window cleaner - there could be all sorts of legitimate reasons.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[billvon 2,476]

>He saw the burglar, Joseph Hebert, 27, climbing out of his neighbor’s window. Mr.
>Fleming yelled, “Freeze!” and fired a shot into the ground before holding the crook at
>gunpoint.

Hebert should have drawn a gun on a handy piece of paper; would have allowed him to escape.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I know if a person has broken into -my- home I can shoot him dead and if I see somebody I witness committing a felony I can try to stop them (I'm not 100% certain how much gun use is allowable in though), however, if I see somebody on my neighbor's property and I -think- they were fleeing . . . is that self-defense?

Quade - I don't believe this to be an accurate assessment of California law. It's not enough for them to be on your property...shoot him in the back as he tries to run from you and your gun. Castle Doctrine won't keep you from being taken off the jail either, like this guy was. And it seems iffy that you'd ever get your gun back, even if you're cleared of wrong doing.

As for interjecting yourself into a felony - I think there's even less protection for Californians whose own lives are not in danger. Arizona or Texas, sure. Here? I wouldn't have faith, and then there's the law you're violating by having your loaded gun out and in use outside of your home.

[Bertt 0]

"people should not take the law into their own hands"

This is the phrase that always gets me. Whose hands does the law belong in if not the hands of the people?

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[riddler 0]

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This is the phrase that always gets me. Whose hands does the law belong in if not the hands of the people?

If the government were capable of protecting We The People, instead of having cops come later and file paperwork after the crime is long past, we might have less need for guns. If I weren't more afraid of Denver cops, than Denver criminals, I might not worry as much about crime.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[JohnRich 4]

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As for interjecting yourself into a felony - I think there's even less protection for Californians whose own lives are not in danger. Arizona or Texas, sure.

Yes, the general principle here in Texas is that if you see something happening to someone else, and if you were in the victim's place and would be legal to shoot, then it's also legal for you to shoot as a third party to save the victim. And that makes perfect sense to me. California lawmakers, maybe not. A lot of those folks seem to prefer to have more victims, rather than more people acting to save others. So just look the other way and pretend it's not happening, don't get involved, and mind your own business!

[mnealtx 0]

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If you see someone climbing out of the neighbor's window, wouldn't that be breaking and entering, at the least?

Not necessarily. Could be a work man, window cleaner - there could be all sorts of legitimate reasons.

You're stretching, Tone.

This was a Saturday *night*, not middle of the day during the week. The homeowner discovers *his* house burgled and someone climbing out of his neighbor's window.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[shropshire 0]

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If you see someone climbing out of the neighbor's window, wouldn't that be breaking and entering, at the least?

Not necessarily. Could be a work man, window cleaner - there could be all sorts of legitimate reasons.

You're stretching, Tone.

This was a Saturday *night*, not middle of the day during the week. The homeowner discovers *his* house burgled and someone climbing out of his neighbor's window.

You're right Mike, it's a little stretch .. but it can be dangerous to" join the dots" too quickly.. so So he 'may' have done the right thing but conversely he could have made a very bad mistake - at least he didn't shoot the guy.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome