Gawain 0 #26 May 16, 2008 Quote I'm trying to decipher where we differ Max. You mean disorder V. injury? I may have misread the meaning from this: Quote I'm on the fence regarding the awarding of Purple Hearts for PTSD simply because most of the people who draw up the military standards to define it are idiots. But PTSD is a very real injury. To that point, I completely agree. I may of tied in that statement with agreeing with the Purple Heart speculation, etc. My bad...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyD 0 #27 May 16, 2008 Interesting thread. Does anyone know if this has ever happened before? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #28 May 16, 2008 The three guys that drove their humvee off the road, and were subsequently captured after no shots fired by the Serbians might be one such case. I wonder why in the world they were awarded the PH. Was it because the president decided it was neccessary for PR reasons? Was it for having to recite "free at last, thank god almighty free at last" while having Jesse Jackson physically touch them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para_Frog 1 #29 May 16, 2008 No worries. - Harvey, BASE 1232 TAN-I, IAD-I, S&TA BLiNC Magazine Team Member Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #30 May 16, 2008 To give further context to the issue (or how some seem to want it to be a non-issue), an email was made public yesterday in which the PTSD coordinator (read: physician administrator) of a VA hospital in Texas "suggests" to employees that a lesser -- & less costly to the VA -- diagnosis than PTSD be given in order to save money: “Given that we are having more and more compensation-seeking veterans, I’d like to suggest you refrain from giving a diagnosis of PTSD straight out. Consider a diagnosis of adjustment disorder, r/o [rule out] PTSD. Additionally, we really don't or have time [sic] to do the extensive testing that should be done to determine PTSD.”One *really* hopes intentionally misdiagnosing veterans should not be part of some cost-cutting policy. “VA Secretary James Peake acknowledged in a statement that the e-mail did come from a VA facility, but said it’s not official policy. ‘A single staff member, out of VA’s 230,000 employees, in a single medical facility sent a single e-mail with suggestions that are inappropriate and have been repudiated at the highest level of our health-care organization. The employee has been counseled and is extremely apologetic.’” Last month, the RAND released a report, “Invisible Wounds of War: Psychological and Cognitive Injuries, Their Consequences, and Services to Assist Recovery,” that found ~300,000 OIF & OEF veterans are suffering from major depression or PTSD. Only about half have sought or received treatment. In response to requests for interviews on the study & how the VA would respond, the VA’s Head of Mental Health (official title: Deputy Chief Patient Care Services Officer for Mental Health) wrote (in another email that was ‘leaked’): “Shh! “Our suicide prevention coordinators are identifying about 1,000 suicide attempts per month among veterans we see in our medical facilities. Is this something we should (carefully) address ourselves in some sort of release before someone stumbles on it?” The VA has stated that 36% of veterans returning from OIF or OEF have been diagnosed with PTSD (some smaller % w/traumatic brain injury [TBI] from closed head injuries). ~~~ Whether one does or does not consider it appropriate to award a Purple Heart for PTSD -- I honestly don’t know & don’t really consider it within my purview -- giving any medal is not going to address the underlying issues, challenges, and consequences for the veterans, for their families, and for the country in the long-term. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #31 May 16, 2008 Quote One *really* hopes intentionally misdiagnosing veterans should not be part of some cost-cutting policy. Sounds like good old SOS to me... Same ole shit.. just different decade Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #32 May 16, 2008 Quote Quote One *really* hopes intentionally misdiagnosing veterans should not be part of some cost-cutting policy. Same ole shit.. just different decade for that matter, what would that say about any kind of socialized health care either. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #33 May 16, 2008 My grandfather was injured in WWII, but it was an injury that he fully recovered from relatively quickly. My dad doesn't recall what the injury was, and it's not something he talked about. My grandfather was a Purple Heart recipient. It's hard for me to imagine his physical injury being more apparent or severe than PTSD.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #34 May 16, 2008 I voted no. The purple heart should remain as an award for a physical sacrifice. I say that for the pure purpose of keeping it simple. Those suffering from Post Tr. should be awarded the best medical therapy their country can offer."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #35 May 16, 2008 Quote for that matter, what would that say about any kind of socialized health care either. Nothing. Altho' it may say something about the trend to contracting and outsourcing of previously federal positions, about the increased workload (demand out-pacing supply), about the overall federal budget, about the economy, and even about market influences on medicine to value the bottom line over people. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #36 May 16, 2008 QuoteQuote for that matter, what would that say about any kind of socialized health care either. Nothing. Really? "intentionally misdiagnosing veterans should not be part of some cost-cutting policy" I wouldn't put it past Congress, and once we lose our choice in our options, why wouldn't it happen? Some pigs are more equal than others ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyPiggie 0 #37 May 16, 2008 QuoteI have an uncle who had to go out of his way to not be put in for a purple heart when, drinking back in the rear, he tripped and fell, cutting himself on a beer can in Viet Nam. I've heard from multiple VN vets that Purple Heart medals were often given out like candy in that war police action. And you want to make that problem even worse by awarding them to every pansy-ass who claims "mental stress"? QuoteActually, the black beret was worn by Rangers, not Special Forces, who get to wear green berets. (Airborne wear a maroon beret.) I never once mentioned the color of the berets, so your attempt to criticize me for mis-labeling special forces is incorrect. The point is, that ordinary soldiers shouldn't get to wear the same beret that was hard-earned by more well-trained soldiers. Do you disagree with that? Likewise, someone who suffers from mental stress, shouldn't get the same Purple Heart as a soldier who lost a limb. QuoteYour claim that the beret now means nothing is total bullshit. You say Ranger berets are black. Okay, so if you give every recruit a black beret right out of boot camp, then the black beret no longer signifies someone who is an exceptionally elite soldier. i.e. the beret would no longer mean anything. Doing THAT, is what would be total bullshit. QuoteOnce upon a time, having 1000 jumps was a huge accomplishment. So you ARE in favor of giving every first jump student a gold wings award? i.e. Gold Wings no longer mean anything? Or is that total bullshit? QuoteThat's pretty easy to say from your armchair. How about heading down to your local recruiter to take your ASVAB and get a ride to MEPS, signing up, proving you have what it takes to wear even the black beret, cupcake. Let me guess, that old knee injury from high school football practice is preventing you from serving. Since you have no idea who I am or what my military experience is, once again, your attempts at criticism are misplaced. QuoteOtherwise, sit down and STFU. Oh my, aren't you getting nasty! Didn't you fight to defend the 1st Amendment, you big war hero you? QuoteQuoteThat should be enough for you. It's worked just fine for all the generations before you. Has it? Are you saying that no veterans from previous wars have had to struggle for the rest of their lives, some with more success than others, with PTSD, or, perhaps more accurately, shell shock? You think that giving them a Purple Heart is going to alleviate their symptoms, and allow them to live happily ever after, in a house by a lake, with rainbow-filled skies and a field full of fuzzy bunnies? QuoteFrom George Carlin's Euphemisms George Carlin is a dope-smoking pussy. Since when did comedians become experts on war wounds? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #38 May 16, 2008 QuoteQuote Nothing. Really? "intentionally misdiagnosing veterans should not be part of some cost-cutting policy" Yep, still really nothing. Other than perhaps the portion of my reply that you excised. What you quoted reflects the trend to contracting and outsourcing of previously federal positions, the increased workload (demand out-pacing supply), the impact of recognition that the overall federal budget is not going to continue in the direction it has, about the economy, and even about market influences on medical business to value the bottom line over people. Sometime market forces can be negative. VR/Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #39 May 16, 2008 QuoteI wouldn't put it past Congress, and once we lose our choice in our options, why wouldn't it happen? Some pigs are more equal than others Interestingly, Sen. Clinton's proposal offers more choice than (possibly) Obama's or McCain's.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #40 May 16, 2008 Really, Really? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nerdgirl 0 #41 May 16, 2008 Quote Really, Really? Yep, still really, really nothing. Really^. /Marg Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters. Tibetan Buddhist saying Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
downwardspiral 0 #42 May 16, 2008 QuoteThe three guys that drove their humvee off the road, and were subsequently captured after no shots fired by the Serbians might be one such case. I wonder why in the world they were awarded the PH. Was it because the president decided it was neccessary for PR reasons? Was it for having to recite "free at last, thank god almighty free at last" while having Jesse Jackson physically touch them? I believe being a prisoner of the enemy is qualification for the purple heart regardless of injuries or the lack there of.www.FourWheelerHB.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #43 May 16, 2008 Both of you cut it out. Your one warning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #44 May 16, 2008 QuoteNot only "no", but "hell no!". If those pansies want an award for mental stress, then give them a new medal specifically designed for them: a yellow heart. The yellow symbolizes their cowardice under fire. They can wear it with pride in front of all the people whose lives they jeopardized by not performing properly under stress. What makes you think they jeapordized lives by not performing properly under stress? You are clearly ignorant of PTSD and the men who suffer from it. Let me tell you this, if you met my friends and brothers who torture themselves day in and day out, and you had the quality of character it takes to get close enough to hear their stories, cowardice would be the last thing you would accuse them of. Personally, I don't care if PTSD cases get Purple Hearts. The medal is not an award for performance, it's a sign of gratitude for sacrifice. Clearly, the prevailing opinion here is that some sacrifices aren't as deserving as others, and I suppose I'd agree with that to some extent. I wouldn't disqualify a class of injuries based on their visibility though. I have in my office a purple heart and a silver star, among several others. My grandfather was awarded both as a result of his time at Guadal Canal. His performance in earning that silver star make me proud. His luck in surviving the wound that made him eligible for the purple heart would be appreciated (by me) regardless of whether or not he'd gotten a medal. Still, I think it's almost required of any civilization deserving of that classification that they give out tangible thanks to those who've had harm come to them while serving in their countrymen's stead. In my opinion, those who suffer from PTSD deserve at least as much gratitude as those who've gotten a shrapnel wound in the buttock. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #45 May 17, 2008 QuoteAnd you want to make that problem even worse by awarding them to every pansy-ass who claims "mental stress"? Not at all. They weed the "pansy-asses" out in basic training. QuoteI never once mentioned the color of the berets, so your attempt to criticize me for mis-labeling special forces is incorrect. Your lack of knowledge of the significance of the color of the berets made it unnecessary for me to criticize you about it. QuoteThe point is, that ordinary soldiers shouldn't get to wear the same beret that was hard-earned by more well-trained soldiers. Do you disagree with that? Uniforms change. Rangers used to wear black berets, now they wear tan berets. "Ordinary soldiers" (if there is such a thing) do not get to wear the same beret that was hard earned by Rangers. QuoteLikewise, someone who suffers from mental stress, shouldn't get the same Purple Heart as a soldier who lost a limb. Your dismissal of PTSD as "mental stress" only highlights how ignorant you are of the situation. A closed head injury, which has been shown to often be associated with PTSD, sustained in combat is no less a combat wound than being shot or losing a limb. QuoteYou say Ranger berets are black. Okay, so if you give every recruit a black beret right out of boot camp, then the black beret no longer signifies someone who is an exceptionally elite soldier. i.e. the beret would no longer mean anything. Doing THAT, is what would be total bullshit. The Rangers now wear tan berets for differentiation. Why are you obsessed with berets? QuoteSo you ARE in favor of giving every first jump student a gold wings award? i.e. Gold Wings no longer mean anything? Or is that total bullshit? Nope. I think people should have to make 1000 skydives before getting their gold wings. But, having 1000 jumps doesn't mean much anymore. It used to be a significant accomplishment. Then again, a Falcon Award used to be a significant accomplishment. Skydivers have long been pushing the barriers of what was possible. Yesterday's milestones are often routine accomplishments today. QuoteSince you have no idea who I am or what my military experience is, once again, your attempts at criticism are misplaced. You're right, I don't know about your military experience, because every time someone asks you about it, you refuse to answer the question, yet you still want to criticize troops and call combat veterans "pansy-asses." I don't no many any veterans who were worth a shit when they were in that would take such a position. QuoteYou think that giving them a Purple Heart is going to alleviate their symptoms, and allow them to live happily ever after, in a house by a lake, with rainbow-filled skies and a field full of fuzzy bunnies? No, I don't think that. Nor do I believe calling those with PTSD cowards is going to make their conditions go away. It's a real condition, often associated with real physical injuries, and denial won't change that or help the troops and veterans who suffer. The fact of the matter is that PTSD often fulfills the criteria for the Purple Heart. There is no reason why those troops shouldn't receive the medal. QuoteGeorge Carlin is a dope-smoking pussy. Since when did comedians become experts on war wounds? Probably the same time you became an expert on berets. Actually, I don't see that Carlin claimed to be an expert on war wounds. What he did do is highlight how our society tries to sterilize conditions via language, and shell shock -> PTSD is an example of that. His words were apt.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #46 May 17, 2008 QuoteUniforms change. Rangers used to wear black berets, now they wear tan berets. "Ordinary soldiers" (if there is such a thing) do not get to wear the same beret that was hard earned by Rangers. Incorrect. The Rangers changed to the tan berets after Shinsecki ordered the black beret as general wear for all troops. You are correct in one thing: it is no longer the beret that was hard-earned by the Rangers.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #47 May 17, 2008 Quote Quote Uniforms change. Rangers used to wear black berets, now they wear tan berets. "Ordinary soldiers" (if there is such a thing) do not get to wear the same beret that was hard earned by Rangers. Incorrect. The Rangers changed to the tan berets after Shinsecki ordered the black beret as general wear for all troops. You are correct in one thing: it is no longer the beret that was hard-earned by the Rangers. Good grief people...Black berets - worn by the Army in general Maroon berets - worn by Pathfinders, Airborne, some SOAR spt Tan berets - worn by Rangers Green berets - worn by Special Forces I don't have that much love for the beret, but it does lend an image of continuity to the Army as a whole, so I guess that's one benefit...other than that... Now, it would be an interesting poll if we could accurate measure those that are current or former military and their support versus those that are not in the military, etc., and the perspective about the Purple Heart...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #48 May 17, 2008 Quote Quote Uniforms change. Rangers used to wear black berets, now they wear tan berets. "Ordinary soldiers" (if there is such a thing) do not get to wear the same beret that was hard earned by Rangers. Incorrect. The Rangers changed to the tan berets after Shinsecki ordered the black beret as general wear for all troops. I hardly see how my statement was incorrect when you reworded it for your rebuttal. Quote You are correct in one thing: it is no longer the beret that was hard-earned by the Rangers. The Rangers earned distinction, not a hat color.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #49 May 17, 2008 Prince has a rasberry beret, does that make him elite? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #50 May 17, 2008 Best post, by far, in the entire thread - nice one. (.)Y(.) 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mnealtx 0 #46 May 17, 2008 QuoteUniforms change. Rangers used to wear black berets, now they wear tan berets. "Ordinary soldiers" (if there is such a thing) do not get to wear the same beret that was hard earned by Rangers. Incorrect. The Rangers changed to the tan berets after Shinsecki ordered the black beret as general wear for all troops. You are correct in one thing: it is no longer the beret that was hard-earned by the Rangers.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #47 May 17, 2008 Quote Quote Uniforms change. Rangers used to wear black berets, now they wear tan berets. "Ordinary soldiers" (if there is such a thing) do not get to wear the same beret that was hard earned by Rangers. Incorrect. The Rangers changed to the tan berets after Shinsecki ordered the black beret as general wear for all troops. You are correct in one thing: it is no longer the beret that was hard-earned by the Rangers. Good grief people...Black berets - worn by the Army in general Maroon berets - worn by Pathfinders, Airborne, some SOAR spt Tan berets - worn by Rangers Green berets - worn by Special Forces I don't have that much love for the beret, but it does lend an image of continuity to the Army as a whole, so I guess that's one benefit...other than that... Now, it would be an interesting poll if we could accurate measure those that are current or former military and their support versus those that are not in the military, etc., and the perspective about the Purple Heart...So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #48 May 17, 2008 Quote Quote Uniforms change. Rangers used to wear black berets, now they wear tan berets. "Ordinary soldiers" (if there is such a thing) do not get to wear the same beret that was hard earned by Rangers. Incorrect. The Rangers changed to the tan berets after Shinsecki ordered the black beret as general wear for all troops. I hardly see how my statement was incorrect when you reworded it for your rebuttal. Quote You are correct in one thing: it is no longer the beret that was hard-earned by the Rangers. The Rangers earned distinction, not a hat color.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #49 May 17, 2008 Prince has a rasberry beret, does that make him elite? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #50 May 17, 2008 Best post, by far, in the entire thread - nice one. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
