tdog 0 #1 November 28, 2006 The "new" PD reserve - with a smaller pack volume - made it to the front page of Skydiving Magazine... The article talks about how it packs 1-2 sizes smaller. The article also says: "It's not yet clear if rig manufactures will have to adjust the standard sizes of their reserve containers to accept the new canopies." And it says that since it flies/lands better, PD is upping the allowed wingloading. Both these comments lead to the idea that one could buy a smaller rig and keep the same square foot reserve - where the safer thing might be to buy a larger reserve for the same size container. This conversation has me hearing Bill Booth's voice reciting Booth's law - that whenever a manufacture makes something safer, skydivers will push the limits farther to keep the fatality rate consistent. So - lets hear it... Specify your wing loading in your sound off - as this might have something to do with your perspective. Do you want to take advantage of the tighter pack volume reserve by buying a larger reserve for your same size rig? Or Do you want to buy the same sq ft reserve and get a smaller rig on your back? Pros vs Cons. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packing_jarrett 0 #2 November 28, 2006 honestly I would buy a smaller container with like a PD106R puts me at about 1.5 WLNa' Cho' Cheese Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #3 November 28, 2006 If I was buying new gear I would opt for the larger reserve."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #4 November 28, 2006 I am jumping an 85 icarus fx with wing loading of 2-1 with a micro raven 120 reserve, when i get the cash i plan to upsize the reserve to at least a 150, I believe in bigger is better when it comes to your last shot. Rediculously tiny reserves are merely an ego stroke. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #5 November 28, 2006 when did you get the issue? Nov or Dec? Did it say anything about cost deltas? By the time, if ever, there is reason to replace the smart 220 with a smart/pd in the 190, maybe I could take advantage of the compactness, but not for hundreds of dollars. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #6 November 28, 2006 Quotewhen did you get the issue? Nov or Dec? December 2006 issue... They said it would cost more - but unknown difference at this time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #7 November 28, 2006 Quotewhen did you get the issue? Nov or Dec? Did it say anything about cost deltas? By the time, if ever, there is reason to replace the smart 220 with a smart/pd in the 190, maybe I could take advantage of the compactness, but not for hundreds of dollars. I received my copy of Skydiving on Saturday. The article reports that PD are waiting for an exemption to be approved by the FAA regarding placarding requirements. The article also reported that PD are presently offering the new reserve in sizes 99, 106, 113, 126, and 143. Larger sizes to be determined later."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #8 November 28, 2006 QuoteIf I was buying new gear I would opt for the larger reserve. But you can put a bigger reserve into your old gear. My main is a 150, my reserve a 200. I wouldn't mind a few more square feet on the reserve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SnurgeMunkey 0 #9 November 28, 2006 So what is the issue now regarding a two out situation with two very different sized canopies? ie. using D22369's situation as an example, if they went to a 150 Reserve and had a 2 out with an 85 main, Is that a bad thing?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #10 November 28, 2006 Honestly any one who is salivating over this development so they can down size to a tiny "Cool" container must be leaving out 1 important issue in their thought process, "can I survive loading a reserve at >1.25 that is landing unconciouse and at ALL DZ altitudes?" 1 PD employee I talked to said the best idea would be to put a larger reserve in the same container. There are exceptions but not to many of us are PRO swoopers nor on that level. But even the PRO swoopers have different rigs for a reason. IMO, best idea is to keep the container they have and put some more reserve footage in the thing.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jheadley 0 #11 November 28, 2006 Right now I have a 150 main at 1.4 and a 176 reserve at 1.17. Ideally I think I'd like for my next rig a 135 main and a low bulk 160 reserve. With the largest of these being a 143 reserve, it seems though that PD is marketing this more towards the "cool small rig" people, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 135 #12 November 28, 2006 any news about when the reserves will be available ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Joellercoaster 6 #13 November 28, 2006 Biggest a 143 is disappointing. I'm surprised that PD would be marketing them at the Small Rig People - can anyone confirm that it's actually their usual need to test things more before releasing them in larger sizes, due to unforeseen issues?-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Icon134 0 #14 November 28, 2006 I'm not sure I understood the poll options correctly... when I get a smaller container (probably not for a while...) I'll be glad that I can get a larger reserve. ScottLivin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,069 #15 November 28, 2006 Quotewhere the safer thing might be to buy a larger reserve for the same size container. When I first got back in the sport, I bought a Raven 249 DashM. I met a freeflier (about 5'5" 160#). We were trading off RW skills for FF'ing skills. At one point, I noticed how large his reserve pack tray was and asked him what size reserve he had which was the same as mine. I asked him why so large for his size. His comment was, "I really don't want to look up and my last thoughts be; I should have went with a larger reserve."Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #16 November 28, 2006 QuoteBiggest a 143 is disappointing. I'm surprised that PD would be marketing them at the Small Rig People - can anyone confirm that it's actually their usual need to test things more before releasing them in larger sizes, due to unforeseen issues? The article says the larger sizes might come out soon... But if you think about it - making the smaller ones first could actually save someone... Typically, swoopers with near or sub 100 sqft canopies are the skydivers that are overloading their reserves. Making low-bulk reserves that allow a swooper to have a 100 sqft main a 150 reserve might be more desirable to the consumer market than having a 190 main and a 230 reserve.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #17 November 28, 2006 QuoteSo what is the issue now regarding a two out situation with two very different sized canopies? ie. using D22369's situation as an example, if they went to a 150 Reserve and had a 2 out with an 85 main, Is that a bad thing?? I did not mention it in my original post - but I wanted to see if someone else would by putting the "pros vs cons" option to see if there were any legitimate cons... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #18 November 28, 2006 QuoteHonestly any one who is salivating over this development so they can down size to a tiny "Cool" container must be leaving out 1 important issue in their thought process, "can I survive loading a reserve at >1.25 that is landing unconciouse and at ALL DZ altitudes?" 1 PD employee I talked to said the best idea would be to put a larger reserve in the same container. There are exceptions but not to many of us are PRO swoopers nor on that level. But even the PRO swoopers have different rigs for a reason. IMO, best idea is to keep the container they have and put some more reserve footage in the thing. Now that the thread is going - I will state my own opinion... I tend to agree with what you said... The people who posted words in this thread seem to all agree... But the people who just posted a vote seem to not all agree... I should put a reminder on my calendar to revive this thread in three years to see what people actually do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 232 #19 November 28, 2006 I look forward to switching my PD-126R for a 143."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ntacfreefly 0 #20 November 28, 2006 Quotehonestly I would buy a smaller container with like a PD106R puts me at about 1.5 WL I'm UPSIZING my PD 113R to a 126 of the new material. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Programmer 0 #21 November 28, 2006 Several tests have shown that you are better off with two similar sized canopies in a two-out situation. I think the more important consideration is what you've got in a one-out situation. In three years, I've seen a two-out situation one time, but I've seen a whole boatload of cutaways. I don't have a lot of skydiving experience, but from a statistical point of view I would have to go with a bigger reserve even if it's a good bit different from the main, just because you're much more likely to use each one by itself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #22 November 28, 2006 Quote Several tests have shown that you are better off with two similar sized canopies in a two-out situation. Several tests? Which tests. Link to them or atleast reference which tests they were. I only know of two tests that were done and talked about to the public. PD's test and Derek V.'s test. PD's test didn't get into the relm of modern swooping canopies, but Derek's test did. The general findings were that 2-outs suck, but having a much larger reserve really didn't matter in a 2-out. So basically jump the reserve you want to jump for your personal safety. Several "tests" have shown that container manufactures don't want to make rigs for big reserves and small mains. There's a couple out there like Wings, though.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #23 November 29, 2006 QuoteSeveral "tests" have shown that container manufactures don't want to make rigs for big reserves and small mains. There's a couple out there like Wings, though. Jump Shack will make a container to hold whatever reserve canopy size you want within reason as well."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #24 November 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo what is the issue now regarding a two out situation with two very different sized canopies? ie. using D22369's situation as an example, if they went to a 150 Reserve and had a 2 out with an 85 main, Is that a bad thing?? I did not mention it in my original post - but I wanted to see if someone else would by putting the "pros vs cons" option to see if there were any legitimate cons... The raven I have flies so differently than the fx, that personally I doubt that thirty additional feet of fabric will make much difference with a two out situation. I worry a whole lot more about a off dz landing, imagine dropping into a backyard on a relatively unfamiliar canopy... no fun in any event, but with a larger, slower and more forgiving canopy my odds of walking away from it are better. I do not have an AAD, and with the reflex container with the reserve pin against my back, the chances of two out are very slim.... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakyrat 1 #25 November 29, 2006 I would opt up for a low bulk PD143R reserve to go with my 120 Katana. I've had one reserve ride on an original PD143R (120 Stiletto line-twist out of control malfunction) and would definitely like to upsize from the 126R I presently have in my container (Mirage G4.1 MT) if this reserve becomes available. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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SnurgeMunkey 0 #9 November 28, 2006 So what is the issue now regarding a two out situation with two very different sized canopies? ie. using D22369's situation as an example, if they went to a 150 Reserve and had a 2 out with an 85 main, Is that a bad thing?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #10 November 28, 2006 Honestly any one who is salivating over this development so they can down size to a tiny "Cool" container must be leaving out 1 important issue in their thought process, "can I survive loading a reserve at >1.25 that is landing unconciouse and at ALL DZ altitudes?" 1 PD employee I talked to said the best idea would be to put a larger reserve in the same container. There are exceptions but not to many of us are PRO swoopers nor on that level. But even the PRO swoopers have different rigs for a reason. IMO, best idea is to keep the container they have and put some more reserve footage in the thing.An Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jheadley 0 #11 November 28, 2006 Right now I have a 150 main at 1.4 and a 176 reserve at 1.17. Ideally I think I'd like for my next rig a 135 main and a low bulk 160 reserve. With the largest of these being a 143 reserve, it seems though that PD is marketing this more towards the "cool small rig" people, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #12 November 28, 2006 any news about when the reserves will be available ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #13 November 28, 2006 Biggest a 143 is disappointing. I'm surprised that PD would be marketing them at the Small Rig People - can anyone confirm that it's actually their usual need to test things more before releasing them in larger sizes, due to unforeseen issues?-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Icon134 0 #14 November 28, 2006 I'm not sure I understood the poll options correctly... when I get a smaller container (probably not for a while...) I'll be glad that I can get a larger reserve. ScottLivin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,069 #15 November 28, 2006 Quotewhere the safer thing might be to buy a larger reserve for the same size container. When I first got back in the sport, I bought a Raven 249 DashM. I met a freeflier (about 5'5" 160#). We were trading off RW skills for FF'ing skills. At one point, I noticed how large his reserve pack tray was and asked him what size reserve he had which was the same as mine. I asked him why so large for his size. His comment was, "I really don't want to look up and my last thoughts be; I should have went with a larger reserve."Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #16 November 28, 2006 QuoteBiggest a 143 is disappointing. I'm surprised that PD would be marketing them at the Small Rig People - can anyone confirm that it's actually their usual need to test things more before releasing them in larger sizes, due to unforeseen issues? The article says the larger sizes might come out soon... But if you think about it - making the smaller ones first could actually save someone... Typically, swoopers with near or sub 100 sqft canopies are the skydivers that are overloading their reserves. Making low-bulk reserves that allow a swooper to have a 100 sqft main a 150 reserve might be more desirable to the consumer market than having a 190 main and a 230 reserve.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #17 November 28, 2006 QuoteSo what is the issue now regarding a two out situation with two very different sized canopies? ie. using D22369's situation as an example, if they went to a 150 Reserve and had a 2 out with an 85 main, Is that a bad thing?? I did not mention it in my original post - but I wanted to see if someone else would by putting the "pros vs cons" option to see if there were any legitimate cons... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #18 November 28, 2006 QuoteHonestly any one who is salivating over this development so they can down size to a tiny "Cool" container must be leaving out 1 important issue in their thought process, "can I survive loading a reserve at >1.25 that is landing unconciouse and at ALL DZ altitudes?" 1 PD employee I talked to said the best idea would be to put a larger reserve in the same container. There are exceptions but not to many of us are PRO swoopers nor on that level. But even the PRO swoopers have different rigs for a reason. IMO, best idea is to keep the container they have and put some more reserve footage in the thing. Now that the thread is going - I will state my own opinion... I tend to agree with what you said... The people who posted words in this thread seem to all agree... But the people who just posted a vote seem to not all agree... I should put a reminder on my calendar to revive this thread in three years to see what people actually do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DJL 232 #19 November 28, 2006 I look forward to switching my PD-126R for a 143."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ntacfreefly 0 #20 November 28, 2006 Quotehonestly I would buy a smaller container with like a PD106R puts me at about 1.5 WL I'm UPSIZING my PD 113R to a 126 of the new material. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Programmer 0 #21 November 28, 2006 Several tests have shown that you are better off with two similar sized canopies in a two-out situation. I think the more important consideration is what you've got in a one-out situation. In three years, I've seen a two-out situation one time, but I've seen a whole boatload of cutaways. I don't have a lot of skydiving experience, but from a statistical point of view I would have to go with a bigger reserve even if it's a good bit different from the main, just because you're much more likely to use each one by itself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #22 November 28, 2006 Quote Several tests have shown that you are better off with two similar sized canopies in a two-out situation. Several tests? Which tests. Link to them or atleast reference which tests they were. I only know of two tests that were done and talked about to the public. PD's test and Derek V.'s test. PD's test didn't get into the relm of modern swooping canopies, but Derek's test did. The general findings were that 2-outs suck, but having a much larger reserve really didn't matter in a 2-out. So basically jump the reserve you want to jump for your personal safety. Several "tests" have shown that container manufactures don't want to make rigs for big reserves and small mains. There's a couple out there like Wings, though.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #23 November 29, 2006 QuoteSeveral "tests" have shown that container manufactures don't want to make rigs for big reserves and small mains. There's a couple out there like Wings, though. Jump Shack will make a container to hold whatever reserve canopy size you want within reason as well."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #24 November 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo what is the issue now regarding a two out situation with two very different sized canopies? ie. using D22369's situation as an example, if they went to a 150 Reserve and had a 2 out with an 85 main, Is that a bad thing?? I did not mention it in my original post - but I wanted to see if someone else would by putting the "pros vs cons" option to see if there were any legitimate cons... The raven I have flies so differently than the fx, that personally I doubt that thirty additional feet of fabric will make much difference with a two out situation. I worry a whole lot more about a off dz landing, imagine dropping into a backyard on a relatively unfamiliar canopy... no fun in any event, but with a larger, slower and more forgiving canopy my odds of walking away from it are better. I do not have an AAD, and with the reflex container with the reserve pin against my back, the chances of two out are very slim.... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakyrat 1 #25 November 29, 2006 I would opt up for a low bulk PD143R reserve to go with my 120 Katana. I've had one reserve ride on an original PD143R (120 Stiletto line-twist out of control malfunction) and would definitely like to upsize from the 126R I presently have in my container (Mirage G4.1 MT) if this reserve becomes available. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
DJL 232 #19 November 28, 2006 I look forward to switching my PD-126R for a 143."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntacfreefly 0 #20 November 28, 2006 Quotehonestly I would buy a smaller container with like a PD106R puts me at about 1.5 WL I'm UPSIZING my PD 113R to a 126 of the new material. Blues, IanTo the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Programmer 0 #21 November 28, 2006 Several tests have shown that you are better off with two similar sized canopies in a two-out situation. I think the more important consideration is what you've got in a one-out situation. In three years, I've seen a two-out situation one time, but I've seen a whole boatload of cutaways. I don't have a lot of skydiving experience, but from a statistical point of view I would have to go with a bigger reserve even if it's a good bit different from the main, just because you're much more likely to use each one by itself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #22 November 28, 2006 Quote Several tests have shown that you are better off with two similar sized canopies in a two-out situation. Several tests? Which tests. Link to them or atleast reference which tests they were. I only know of two tests that were done and talked about to the public. PD's test and Derek V.'s test. PD's test didn't get into the relm of modern swooping canopies, but Derek's test did. The general findings were that 2-outs suck, but having a much larger reserve really didn't matter in a 2-out. So basically jump the reserve you want to jump for your personal safety. Several "tests" have shown that container manufactures don't want to make rigs for big reserves and small mains. There's a couple out there like Wings, though.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #23 November 29, 2006 QuoteSeveral "tests" have shown that container manufactures don't want to make rigs for big reserves and small mains. There's a couple out there like Wings, though. Jump Shack will make a container to hold whatever reserve canopy size you want within reason as well."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #24 November 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteSo what is the issue now regarding a two out situation with two very different sized canopies? ie. using D22369's situation as an example, if they went to a 150 Reserve and had a 2 out with an 85 main, Is that a bad thing?? I did not mention it in my original post - but I wanted to see if someone else would by putting the "pros vs cons" option to see if there were any legitimate cons... The raven I have flies so differently than the fx, that personally I doubt that thirty additional feet of fabric will make much difference with a two out situation. I worry a whole lot more about a off dz landing, imagine dropping into a backyard on a relatively unfamiliar canopy... no fun in any event, but with a larger, slower and more forgiving canopy my odds of walking away from it are better. I do not have an AAD, and with the reflex container with the reserve pin against my back, the chances of two out are very slim.... RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakyrat 1 #25 November 29, 2006 I would opt up for a low bulk PD143R reserve to go with my 120 Katana. I've had one reserve ride on an original PD143R (120 Stiletto line-twist out of control malfunction) and would definitely like to upsize from the 126R I presently have in my container (Mirage G4.1 MT) if this reserve becomes available. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
