Volunteers to patrol Arizona-Mexico border

[gkc1436 3]

hey look......
ron is hiding mexicans in his garage....
heh heh heh
g

[Ron 7]

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hey look......
ron is hiding mexicans in his garage....

1. I don't have a garage...
2. I would not hide any illegal aliens anyway.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[EricTheRed 0]

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I know my father was not the only one working trying to make a future for his children.So where are those millions or billlons of dollars at?

This is one (of many) reasons the US government doesn't really want to stop illegal immigration. That $$ is proping up other areas of the tax code. There are many hard working people that are employed (not under the table) that pay income tax, sales taxes and social security taxes.
My experiance with illegals is that by far most are in the same situation as your father was. Just trying to make a better life for their kids.
That being said, I still think our current immigration policy is wrong and is hurting both the US and Mexico.

illegible usually

[Lindsey 0]

That's all fine and good, but as long as our society agrees to pay for people to have children they can't afford, then people will accept what is handed out. Although social policy changes may come slowly, I think those changes are a lot easier to affect. People who are okay with having the rest of us pay their way aren't going to change as easily.

That being said, I do think that there is a place for public assistance. It should be available to people, imho, in difficult times. But it should NOT be available as people's primary means of support over years.... Just my opinion. It certainly should not be extended, in ANY form, to people who are here in our country illegally.

Peace~
linz

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Lets get away from your personal situation here because I don't want to be accused of personal attacks when that is not my intention.

First off, nowhere did I say only rich people should have children. I view this as a very weak debate tactic because it involves taking an extreme position and then trying to justify it by pointing out the exception.

I'm also very happy when I hear people have done well in life and been a contributing member of society, but how would that have changed by any couple waiting until they could afford children? Do you mean that waiting to have children means they children would not have done well? See they illogic?

Suggesting it is OK for someone to have children they cannot afford is also an illogical statement. If it's OK to have children you can't afford, then is it also OK to purchase a home you cannot afford and then ask for govt. assistance with the mortgage because you have children? How about purchasing an automobile you cannot afford? Where do you draw the line? When does personal responsibility enter?

I would also disagree that govt assistance is the only way a 22 Year old can have children. If someone can't afford them at 22, then wait until they are 24, 26, or 30. Hell, my dad was 30 y.o. when I was born because he couldn't afford to have children fresh out of college either. He was too proud to ask anyone to pay for his desires.

I doubt if many people who want to have children they can't afford, would walk down the street and knock on their neighbors door and ask for the neighbors to give them money so they could afford to have children, but somehow it's OK as long as the govt. does it for them.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Rick 67]

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That being said, I do think that there is a place for public assistance. It should be available to people, imho, in difficult times. But it should NOT be available as people's primary means of support over years.... Just my opinion. It certainly should not be extended, in ANY form, to people who are here in our country illegally.


maybe assistance along with education to improve empolyability (is that a word?)

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

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[KevinMcGuire 0]

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maybe assistance along with education to improve empolyability (is that a word?)

Those are all great ideas and should be encouraged but they all require taxes paid into the system ensuring enough money for those programs. Under the table workers do not contribute and as such should not benefit. This point is at the very heart of the issue.

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[Gravitymaster 0]

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That's all fine and good, but as long as our society agrees to pay for people to have children they can't afford, then people with accept what is handed out. Although social policy changes may come slowly, I think those changes are a lot easier to affect. People who are okay with having the rest of us pay their way aren't going to change as easily.

That being said, I do think that there is a place for public assistance. It should be available to people, imho, in difficult times. But it should NOT be available as people's primary means of support over years.... Just my opinion. It certainly should not be extended, in ANY form, to people who are here in our country illegally.

Amen!!

I wonder how those who act irresponsibly and then expect society to pay for it would feel if assistance was made in the form of a loan they would have to repay at a later date? That would address the issue of ones right to have children at an early age when they can't afford it, and shift the financial responsibility to later in their life when they can afford it. My guess is they would then have another excuse ready as to why they couldn't afford to repay the loan in their 30's. Such excuses would be:

1. "I can't pay now because I have to buy a larger house because the one we had in our 20's is too small and the neighborhood has a lot of crime. You can't expect me to raise my children in a bad neighborhood can you?"

2. "Can't pay now because I have to save for my childrens education. You can't expect me to allow my children to be uneducated can you? If you don't allow me to educate my children, you (society) will have to support them when they need welfare."

3. "Can't pay now, I have to buy my children new clothes and a new computer. How can you be so heartless as to demand I repay a loan when by doing so my children will have to do without proper clothing and will be embarrassed to attend school. That would cause them to drop out and they would then probably end up in a gang. Then society will have to pay to get them off drugs and support them while they are in prison."

And so it goes with the cycle of irresponsibility and excuses.................

[Lindsey 0]

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That being said, I do think that there is a place for public assistance. It should be available to people, imho, in difficult times. But it should NOT be available as people's primary means of support over years.... Just my opinion. It certainly should not be extended, in ANY form, to people who are here in our country illegally.


maybe assistance along with education to improve empolyability (is that a word?)

My public highschool diploma was provided to me by the taxpayers, with the need for only minimal motivation on my own part.....i.e I had to show up and complete my homework assignments. There is more than ample assistance for continued education after that. All it requires is a little gumption.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

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[freeflyz 0]

Those are all great ideas and should be encouraged but they all require taxes paid into the system ensuring enough money for those programs. Under the table workers do not contribute and as such should not benefit. This point is at the very heart of the issue.

Under the table workers are far and between,most of them are working with a flase ss cards hints they are paying into the system that is paying them nothing.It has been an on going problem in the US.You see it ever end of the month at the super makets a mother,father,7 childern loading there 2 carts full of food..you think whats wrong with that???? It's the beer,cartons of cigs among other non food items there paying in cash that make's me think. I've seen whole AMERICAN familys living on food stamps,government assited housing for years! But they have the right to drain the system there Americans who have put money into the system..Or did they?

[justinb138 0]

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Under the table workers are far and between

Ever been to Texas? It's probably a lot more common than you think. I know it is here.

[ZegeunerLeben 0]

>>This is an old, recurring debate, which comes up every time there's a large social incursion from a foreign country. A lot of parallels can be drawn from when a large number of Irish immigrants came to the US during the potato famine. The US is a fluid, dynamic country, and its demographic never stays the same for long. I personally believe that the real danger with Mexican immigrant populations is our inability to integrate them into society. When foreign populations are successfully integrated into US society they slowly become accepted and eventually become “one of us”; they learn the language, work legitimately, pay taxes, and benefit society as a whole. And immigrant populations can and have integrated into US society while still retaining their national identity, language, and pride.

>>Problems occur when foreign immigrant populations aren’t integrated. It’s when they stay in isolated groups, never learning the language/customs of their new home country, and only associating with others within their own group. When this happens, society fragments, and lines are drawn. It creates divisiveness, and is conducive to conflict. I personally feel that, for whatever reasons, Mexican immigrant populations haven’t always integrated well into American society, and fault lies on both sides stemming from historical conflicts and the marginalization of Mexican populations. This will change, one way or another, border patrol or no border patrol, though I feel that enforcing the border is critical to national security of United States. I also feel that these immigrants need to be brought into society and legitimized, so that they can work and pay taxes and contribute, thus easing the burden on social services. We just have to figure out how.

[EricTheRed 0]

I have. Lived there for several years. There didn't seem to be a lot more under the table workers in Texas than there are here in the Northwest. The main reason is that most companies have to show payroll and the IRS will nail the CFO for not paying payrol taxes but not for hiring illegals as long as they go through the motions of "looking" at the ID.

Sure there are small businesses that pay under the table but these do not make up the bulk of payroll.

The way to stop illegal labor is to get seriour about prosecuting the people that hire illegals.

Consider this:
In Portland, OR if you are caught trying to hire a prostitute (an illegal act) they seize your car and all the contents and auction it off. If the state did the same thing to every business that hired illegals, how long do you think there would be an immigration problem?

illegible usually

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I have. Lived there for several years. There didn't seem to be a lot more under the table workers in Texas than there are here in the Northwest. The main reason is that most companies have to show payroll and the IRS will nail the CFO for not paying payrol taxes but not for hiring illegals as long as they go through the motions of "looking" at the ID.

Sure there are small businesses that pay under the table but these do not make up the bulk of payroll.

The way to stop illegal labor is to get seriour about prosecuting the people that hire illegals.

Consider this:
In Portland, OR if you are caught trying to hire a prostitute (an illegal act) they seize your car and all the contents and auction it off. If the state did the same thing to every business that hired illegals, how long do you think there would be an immigration problem?

Excuse my ignorance on how immigrants get paid, but why don't employers just file a 1099 form? This would alleviate their tax responsibilities. If you start seizing assets of businesses that hired illegals, I have no doubt that soon their would be fewer places to work and many legal hard working immigrants would suffer. I think an escalating fine structure would be a better solution because as soon as the dollar amount of the fines a business would pay when caught hiring illegals becomes more than the saving from paying under the table, the sooner illegal hiring will stop.

[EricTheRed 0]

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If you start seizing assets of businesses that hired illegals, I have no doubt that soon their would be fewer places to work

A mostly false assertion. You just sell the assets at public auction. eg. The local McD's hires illegals. The property is siezed and auctioned. Someone WILL buy it and hire the people they need to run the store. It's an extreme example andI think that seizing peoples property for crimes is unconstitional anyway, but we still do it (ref. drug laws)

You could accomplish the same thing with mandatory prison sentences for the HR directors. The issue is no-one really wants to stop the illegal labor. Not the govm't, not the employers, not the workers. They all win.

Fines don't work unless they are severe enough to potentially ruin the business. Simply offsettingthe profitswon't work because there are still a lot of people that will be willing to run the risk. Most managers don't mind having their employer pay a fine NEARLY as much as they mind spending a few months with "bubba"

As far as how employees are paid?
Each state has slightly differing rules but the IRS requires that all employers report payroll and with hold certain taxes that have to be paid to the government. Some people don't do it *google nannygate* and get caught. It's actually pretty easy to pay 'under the table' if you have very few workers and don't mind the risk.
Most states (and the IRS) ARE interested in collecting taxes and so will audit records and have sent people to jail for tax fraud. Thus most companies DO report payroll properly (or only cheat a little)
The states don't CARE who the $$$ comes from as long as it keeps coming.

see this http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/218791_immig05.html
from today's news.

you can also refer to this post from a while back...
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1369933;search_string=immigration;#1369933

illegible usually

[Gravitymaster 0]

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If you start seizing assets of businesses that hired illegals, I have no doubt that soon their would be fewer places to work

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A mostly false assertion. You just sell the assets at public auction. eg. The local McD's hires illegals. The property is siezed and auctioned. Someone WILL buy it and hire the people they need to run the store. It's an extreme example andI think that seizing peoples property for crimes is unconstitional anyway, but we still do it (ref. drug laws)

This is pretty simplistic reasoning. McDs nor any other business is going to start hiring anybody unless the market demands it. Shutting down a business creates unemployment and a drop off in demand for any product or service.

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You could accomplish the same thing with mandatory prison sentences for the HR directors. The issue is no-one really wants to stop the illegal labor. Not the govm't, not the employers, not the workers. They all win.

Agreed, but thats has nothing to do with the hypothetical we were discussing.

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Fines don't work unless they are severe enough to potentially ruin the business. Simply offsettingthe profitswon't work because there are still a lot of people that will be willing to run the risk. Most managers don't mind having their employer pay a fine NEARLY as much as they mind spending a few months with "bubba"

Which is pretty much what I already said when I suggested escalating fines that become more burdensome to pay than the saving in hiring illegals.

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As far as how employees are paid?
Each state has slightly differing rules but the IRS requires that all employers report payroll and with hold certain taxes that have to be paid to the government. Some people don't do it *google nannygate* and get caught. It's actually pretty easy to pay 'under the table' if you have very few workers and don't mind the risk.
Most states (and the IRS) ARE interested in collecting taxes and so will audit records and have sent people to jail for tax fraud. Thus most companies DO report payroll properly (or only cheat a little)
The states don't CARE who the $$$ comes from as long as it keeps coming.

Thanks for the lesson in taxes. Now google "1099" and "Independent Contractor." Here is the 20 questions the IRS uses to determine status as an Independent Contractor.

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1. Is the person providing services required to comply with instructions about when, where, and how the work is to be done?

2. Is the person provided training to enable them to perform a job in a particular method or manner?

3. Are the services provided integrated into the business' operation?

4. Must the services be rendered personally?

5. Does the business hire, supervise or pay assistants to help the person performing the services under contract?

6. Is the relationship between the individual and the person they perform services for a continuing relationship?

7. Who sets the hours of work?

8. Is the worker required to devote their full time to the person they perform services for?

9. Is the work performed at the place of the business of the potential employer?

10. Who directs the order or sequence in which the work must be done?

11. Are regular written or oral reports required?

12. What is the method of payment - hourly, commission or by the job?

13. Are business and/or traveling expenses reimbursed?

14. Who furnishes tools and materials used in providing services?

15. Does the person providing services have a significant investment in facilities used to perform services?

16. Can the person performing the services realize both a profit or a loss?

17. Can the person providing services work for a number of firms at the same time?

18. Does the person make their services available to the general public?

19. Is the person providing services subject to dismissal for reasons other than nonperformance of contract specifications?

20. Can the person providing services terminate their relationship without incurring a liability for failure to complete a job?

The question I was asking since I don't know the particulars on how illegals are paid, is whether they would qualify for I.C status.

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[EricTheRed 0]

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The question I was asking since I don't know the particulars on how illegals are paid, is whether they would qualify for I.C status.

Generally no.

Mostly because of:
1. Is the person providing services required to comply with instructions about when, where, and how the work is to be done?
7. Who sets the hours of work?
and
10. Who directs the order or sequence in which the work must be done?
This is direction and control. If you don't care when, how, or what gets done, you can claim IC (sometimes).
I can't think of many laborers that fit this though as most have to be VERY closely supervised.
It's pretty damn tricky to claim IC status and there is a lot of case law on the subject. Not all related to illegals but it's difficult to dodge your responsibilities by just claiming that all your workers are independant contractors.

My simplistic point was just that. The business (in true capitilistic form) would not exist if there was no demand. Taking the assets of the corp does not eliminate the demand. It creates an opportunity for someone else to serve that demand.

That's called the law of supply and demand, pretty simple stuff really. Artificially pushing either side is possible but the equation always fights back.

illegible usually

[littlestranger 0]

a bunch of armed, untrained zealots patroling the border...this should be interesting.

[billvon 2,406]

> a bunch of armed, untrained zealots patroling the border...this should be interesting.

There was a special report on the local station about these guys. One 'watch station' positioned atop a small hill was well stocked with both weapons and beer. What better way to spend a lazy friday afternoon?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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The question I was asking since I don't know the particulars on how illegals are paid, is whether they would qualify for I.C status.

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Generally no.

Mostly because of:
1. Is the person providing services required to comply with instructions about when, where, and how the work is to be done?

Aren't most migrant workers paid on a per diem or by the pound, basket, or whatever basis?

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7. Who sets the hours of work?

If they are paid per item, pound etc. They would not be required to have set hours. No work, no pay.

and

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10. Who directs the order or sequence in which the work must be done?

This is direction and control. If you don't care when, how, or what gets done, you can claim IC (sometimes).
I can't think of many laborers that fit this though as most have to be VERY closely supervised.
It's pretty damn tricky to claim IC status and there is a lot of case law on the subject. Not all related to illegals but it's difficult to dodge your responsibilities by just claiming that all your workers are independant contractors.

I can see you haven't spent much time around the construction industry, sales, computers etc. It's very common for a company to "outsource" their labor. I have a friend who is a high level data base manager who was just "outsourced" after 23 years with the same company. He prefers his new status because it allows him to acyually make more money and work on his own schedule. All the company is interested in is results. If the company doesn't get results from him, they find someone who will produce.

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My simplistic point was just that. The business (in true capitilistic form) would not exist if there was no demand. Taking the assets of the corp does not eliminate the demand. It creates an opportunity for someone else to serve that demand.

That's called the law of supply and demand, pretty simple stuff really. Artificially pushing either side is possible but the equation always fights back.

Suppose a farm business is auctioned as you suggest, and the new buyer decides to take the land and build luxury houses on it or decides to build an airport for skydiving on it?

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[greybeard 0]

Chimming in late, and don't want to ofend any serious conversation, but, Bill, got lots -o-beer. Come on down. Bring yourn peeshooter and a good ole appitittie for blood and gore. Caint shoot the ills but lots of deer and cyote and pig out of season are gonna get cooked. All seriousness aside, .........mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm this is serious.

The disruption and destruction along our border is driving too many good folk to max reactions. Many great , many, many, good families are being driven to outlaw status to defend there own. The federal gov is turning a blind eye, because the greater good of Las Vegas hotels, and Ohmaha meat packing plants, have more sway with gov than a rancher or home owner in southern AZ.

Whoerver you, wherever you are, If someone or a group of folk camped in your backyard, that might be OK. If this group left a giant pile of garbage and crap, then was followed the next day by another group, and they scattered a lardger pile and broke down your fence and let your stock roam and die, and this incursion continued day after day, week after week, month after month, and your daily routine was to address and fix the damage and your local, state, and federal government ignored you,

...you suck and die, or you fight, somehow.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE, RIGHT ON!

The folk in southern Az have exercized an incredible amount of self control and Christian restraint. These folk are famous for their generousity and helphullness to the less fortunouts.

It is not the individuals comming across to better themselves and their families than are being affrontted by anyone. These individuals are applauded by all. The Amerrican Dream is alive and well, and supportted by us on the border.

The problem is the 'mass' cyote driven, unconcious poor souls, who know no better.

The problem is that F. "FUCKHEAD" Fox will not accept resposibiltiy for the simple process of social education and controled give and take. His plus is the money sent back, costs him nothing. His control of his northern border, costs him nothing.

FUCK FOX!

[bbarnhouse 0]

I am just going to offer an interesting fact since we all know that I don't discuss Polly Ticks...
Eloy and Perris are not only known for skydiving, but are also rated 1 and 2 respectively for drop off points for illegals.
This information comes to you by way of the US Border Patrol
Imagine that....

[greybeard 0]

Interesting.

Also intesting, and I am not religous at all, a bumper sticker I saw today..... "When Jesus said,
'Love thy enemy, I don't think he ment, KILL THEM".

I can't repeat enough, that it is not the individuals looking for a better life, who we must address. They are causing a problem, but the real source is the government south of here that is bleeding us with impunity. And who is letting this happen? Why?

[Jimbo 0]

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If they are paid per item, pound etc. They would not be required to have set hours. No work, no pay.

Not necessarily true. Regardless of how the workers are paid, the farmer has work that needs to be done and needs to be done on time. To get that work done on time he needs workers to be there on time and work until they're done.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Jimbo 0]

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> a bunch of armed, untrained zealots patroling the border...this should be interesting.

There was a special report on the local station about these guys. One 'watch station' positioned atop a small hill was well stocked with both weapons and beer. What better way to spend a lazy friday afternoon?

Got a link?

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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If they are paid per item, pound etc. They would not be required to have set hours. No work, no pay.

Not necessarily true. Regardless of how the workers are paid, the farmer has work that needs to be done and needs to be done on time. To get that work done on time he needs workers to be there on time and work until they're done.

-
Jim

Correct and if one laborer won't get the job done, the farmer simply hires more. One of the tactics used with IC's who are undependable is to suspend them for and tell them to come and talk in 2 weeks if they are ready to come back to work.

Geez.. you guys act as if all migrant workers are lazy SOB's who have to be forced to work. Remember all they went through to get here? I would also remind you that most immigrants are hard working and came to this country for a better life.