Fayard Enterprises goes bankrupt?????

[skycat 0]

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Well Brush here in CO lost the CASA for their boogie.

Kelli,
From what I heard both the Lamar boogie and Brush had the Casa for the same weekend. Kind of a mix up I guess. Check with Pat and see if he's still got it lined up for the Boogie down south.

(wanted to get in here before the thread gets locked. Never been in a locked thread)

You mean there is another boogie on April 20th? Damn I never get these emails. And who is Pat?

Fly it like you stole it!

[lewmonst 0]

I have to agree with Hook here, and I respect Chris's post in that he was just concerned with a potential safety issue. I also very much appreciate the work Chris has done on the website in bringing information to us. I hope to never know the pain of losing a friend in an aircraft accident. Chris is not telling anyone what to do or not to jump, he's just informing us of facts. What we do with that information is our choice.
I like the Fayards, CSS, and I have jumped Paul's planes a lot, and plan to continue jumping them whenever possible. I love having the Casa at Greene County in the summer. I have had nothing but good experiences with the Fayards, CSS, the Wests and SGC.
Chris, thank you for your post. I have had all good experiences with the Nelson and the Otter's as well. And with pilot's who care like you do, I expect that to continue. Thanks!

peace

http://www.exitshot.com

[RevJim 0]

I think what Chris is saying could be combined with what others were saying.

Fayard may be in tough times right now, as the winter has been difficult for many businesses.

Does this mean we abandon them? No. Does it mean we need to be skeptics? No.

We all should be aware of the quality of the craft we jump out of, at all times.
This Chapter 11 does not mean that there will be crappy maintenance, nor does it imply that that we should turn from Fayard.

If nothing else, it gives us an attitude check. Remember, these few big planes are what keep us jumping in comfort. Sure, keep your eyes open, as you should have been doing all along, but please, do not abandon an entire company when they may need you the most!

Chapter 11 allows restructuring and gives a bit of time to get caught up on bills. Getting the wrong idea about this can possibly turn many away from them, and turn a chapter 11 into a chapter 7. Do you people want to go back to 182's, or do you like jumping from nice big, fast birds?

Keep your eyes open, but please, keep jumping too!

p.s. Never met anyone from Fayard personally, but these are the people that really keep us flying in comfort.

It's your life, live it!
Karma
RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1

[Gravitymaster 0]

I have met and talked to Paul and Nancy several times over the last 5 years both at CSS and WFFC. If they are having financial problems, then I know where I'm going for the Easter Boogie. Paul and Nancy are 2 of the finest people in skydiving I have met. I would find it VERY hard to believe they would sacrifice a persons life for a buck.
Please give them your support and jump at their DZ.

[Ron 7]

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Hey chris...still waiting for the FAA investigation of the "lost prop over georgia" incident......oh wait...that's
right...there was never one filed....

Did there need to be? If so, then this might be another warning sign. Ignoring the FAA.

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SteveM 0]

Well said Rev Jim, I agree that we should stay alert and keep our eyes wide open , and not just abandoned CSS........ uh, may I ask -- who is the charming young lady with the nice "fall rate" in that pic ???

Steve M
>^..^for me -- SkyDiving is a life sentence -- for it has saved my life.

[PhreeZone 15]

Luckly Chapter 11 allows someone to reorganize the debt and make payment arrangements, plus it allows the filer to reclaim any part unpaid for and use that money to pay off the creditors.

Personally... If I was Paul (who is one great guy, a bit stressed at WFFC, but a really great guy) I'd be taking the engines or parts back from any DZ thats behind in payment. Be on the look out for some turbine repo gnomes coming to a few DZ's near you soon if I was in charge of Fayard Enterprises


That does bring up another issue. If there are DZ's that are unable to pay their maintence bills should their names be posted so that everyone can be on the look out for poor operations from them? Maybe we need to get ahold of all the maintence shops and ask who all is behind on payments?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[skymedic 0]

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Did there need to be? If so, then this might be another warning sign. Ignoring the FAA.

a prop leaving a transport class airplane....the FAA want's to know about it....now if you have to or not...that's a bit of a gray area...

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....

[sunshine 2]

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uh, may I ask -- who is the charming young lady with the nice "fall rate" in that pic ???

Umm....if you read the name of the link it tells ya.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[SkyDekker 1,144]

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Excuse me but being honest and posting factual information is not slander.

[pet peeve mode]
If something is posted, hence written, it would be libel. If something is spoken it would be slander. Easy way to remember: "l" in libel and letter. "s" In slander and "s"poken word.

Naturally, when the written or spoken word is an established fact it can be neither slander nor libel
[/pet peeve mode]

Please continue.....btw I think Chris is filling a great void when it comes to the aviation part of skydiving.

[flyangel2 2]

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You mean there is another boogie on April 20th? Damn I never get these emails. And who is Pat?

The Lamar boogie is Sept 19th-21st. Last I heard Brush had the Casa set up for the same weekend. Who knows, I guess the best thing to do is sit back and wait.
Pat is from the AFA and runs the boogie at Lamar. I'll forward the information.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Jimbo 0]

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That does bring up another issue. If there are DZ's that are unable to pay their maintence bills should their names be posted so that everyone can be on the look out for poor operations from them? Maybe we need to get ahold of all the maintence shops and ask who all is behind on payments?

Careful there. This isn't about being behind on a few payments, this is about being so behind that bankruptcy protection is necessary and being investigated by the SEC and being investigated by the IRS. Any one of these problems by themselves may not be an issue; put all of these problems together and we've got some significant financial difficulties. If we're going to compare Fayard's problems with the problems of other DZs then let's be sure to compare apples to apples.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[riddler 0]

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btw I think Chris is filling a great void when it comes to the aviation part of skydiving.

I agree 100%. Not a lot of DZ pilots jump as well. It' nice to get the perspective of a person that does both. Keep up the good work, Chris.

[AndyMan 7]

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Careful there. This isn't about being behind on a few payments, this is about being so behind that bankruptcy protection is necessary and being investigated by the SEC and being investigated by the IRS.

Careful yourself, there. I haven't seen anything about Fayard Enterprises being investigated by the SEC... and I'd be very surprised if I did see it, because I don't think Fayard Enterprises is publicly traded. The SEC doesn't give a rats ass if it isn't publicly traded.

Secondly, the only thing I've seen about the IRS is that they're listed as creditors on the bankrupcy court website. Newsflash: Everyone pays taxes. Everyone is a creditor to the IRS. Every company, wether profitable or ass deep in losses, lists the IRS as a creditor.

If you go to the website of the bankrupcy court diverdriver posted, click the link that says "claims". There's 3 entries, totalling less then $3,000. None are significant otter parts suppliers, only 1 is avaiation related at all, and it's an electronics company.

"All these problems togeather"... yada yada yada. He's got 3 problems, and they total less then $3,000.

The fact that he did file willingly for chapter 11 is significant, but it's hardly the doom and gloom a lot of people are making it out to be.

He'd be in the clear if any of the DZ's that owe him bags of cash would pay up. Anyone wanna guess who's at the top of the list?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[SteveM 0]

Duhhh sorry Sunshine, I must have killed waaayy too many brain cells this weekend, that one kinda got by me

Steve M
>^..^for me -- SkyDiving is a life sentence -- for it has saved my life.

[wildblue 4]

Andy - I think you're wrong. If you look at the schedule of affairs, it looks like he owes a few hundred thousand in back taxes alone.
http://207.41.17.18/ECM/bc_images/__0WX0SS2LO6262536.pdf

Chris - I'm kind of disappointed in you. Isn't Roger selling one or more of his Otters? Should we be worried about the state of financial affairs at SDC? He's also been investigated for all sorts of hairy things. Should this bother us too?
And don't you fly for United?? (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think my memory serves) http://money.cnn.com/2002/12/09/news/companies/ual_bankruptcy/index.htm Should we all be leary about flying with them??

And if anyone cares, Fayard specifically filed a motion to allow him to continue to pay CAAD and Garrett Aviation outside of this reorg so they would continue to sell and ship him parts for the Casa. http://207.41.17.18/ECM/bc_images/__0WX0TDXXS6262627.pdf

Now, I have also heard Fayard is owed a ton of money by lots of different people. Let the man get himself organized before you jump all over him and cause even more problems. In the meantime, I'll continue to hop on board any of his aircraft.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[diverdriver 5]

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Now, I have also heard Fayard is owed a ton of money by lots of different people. Let the man get himself organized before you jump all over him and cause even more problems. In the meantime, I'll continue to hop on board any of his aircraft.

I'm causing him problems? One of the bigest aircraft owners of jump planes declares bankruptcy and I post links to the website that prove it and I'm causing him problems? There was a rumor. People talk about stuff on here all the time. They post stuff about the war. Back and forth. Yadda yadda. But something directly related to skydiving gets posted and I'm causing him problems? I don't think so. I think the problems Paul has are of his own making.

For those that don't think the SEC is involved just look at the list of Creditors. Why would the Security and Exchange Comission list themselves or get involved with $3,000 dollars of claims? If someone has a good explanation I'd like to hear it.

How have I jumped all over him? I posted something factual for others to read and corroborate. I suggested that they keep their eyes and ears open to protect themselves because operations (inside and outside of skydiving) have had issues with maintenance while in bankruptcy. If people are more aware and this puts Fayard's operation on notice that we are all watching so nothing happens then I'd say things went well.

United? People choose to stop flying United because we don't have coffee on some flights. I doubt the bankruptcy really has anything to do with their decision making. Don't believe me? Just ask my flight attendant from a few trips ago when we couldn't serve coffee. He wanted a full refund on his ticket from O'Hare to Moline, IL. Whatever.

I think a major difference exists between airline bankruptcy and a Part 91 operation bankruptcy. The FAA is crawling all over an airline to begin with when the times are good. They get interested even more after a filing because of past history. They don't want to be seen as not watching over an operation going down the tubes. You and I both know there is little oversite in skydiving operations. So lets compare apples to apples.

Roger selling one of his otters? Yep, sure is. I continue to jump his planes. I make my own decisions. I've left bad operations before. Believe me, I have no quams about doing it again if necessary.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Vallerina 2]

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I'm causing him problems?

Not to fully argue what you meant by this:

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Debunk this rumor if it's not true please.

but most people tend to disbelieve rumors unless proven true. You start a thread in a negative fashion, and then you are actually surprised why people think you're trying to "cause problems"?

Also, he is not technically filing for bankruptcy, so this rumor is technically not true. His business still has credit. Huge difference. He's by no means broke.

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. I doubt the bankruptcy really has anything to do with their decision making.

Well, by your standards, shouldn't it be?

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So lets compare apples to apples.

We are. Both companies still have money and credit and are capable of maintaining their aircraft. That seemed to be a big concern for you.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[eeneR 1]

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Also, he is not technically filing for bankruptcy

Thats kind of odd seeing as the information is already in place and listed online as of being filed as of 2/27/03 I believe. So how is that not technically filing for bankruptcy if it is done already?

As for bankruptcy this is caused by poor business management. Yes, he is trying to fix it, however had he been pro-active with things instead of being re-active he may not be where he is.

All DZ suffered this winter. How they prepaired for it determines how things are going to come out at the end.

I also feel the same way about United, and the rest of the airlines who had to file. Poor business judgment put them where they are. Now what they do to fix it will determine their fate.

Crap happens to everyone. The more heads up you are the more likely you are to catch it before it becomes a problem.

This information was posted as a heads up for jumpers, not meant to bash. We as skydivers need to set the bar for safety. If we dont everyone will start slacking. We should expect nothing but the best from all Aircraft operations commercial commuter down to skydiving operations or even flight schools.



Fayard needs to step up to the plate and do his best to make things work and be safe. We need to demand this of him.

She is not a "Dumb Blonde" - She is a "Light-Haired Detour Off The Information Superhighway."
eeneR
TF#72, FB#4130, Incauto

[diverdriver 5]

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but most people tend to disbelieve rumors unless proven true. You start a thread in a negative fashion, and then you are actually surprised why people think you're trying to "cause problems"?

Ummm....the rumor was proven true. He did file bankruptcy. I posted the links. So yes, how am I causing Paul problems? I started a thread in a negative fashion? I hate rumors. So when I heard this I asked if anyone had the truth. Maybe others would stop spreading the rumors after it was shown that he had not declared bankruptcy. But, the facts are he did file bankruptcy. If you read the whole thread I even said the thread could die since a few had posted that they knew he had not declare bankruptcy. I was going to let it go. I even posted it in Talk Back so that if it was trash it would be burried quickly. But, then, more facts came out. So, I posted the links. Everyone seemed to not take notice. Then after a week it gets pulled up to rehash and I'm bashed for causing trouble. The thread was dead. Facts or no facts the thread was dead. So now I'm the bad guy. Fine. You all have a good day. Do with the info what you want.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[AggieDave 6]

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how am I causing Paul problems?

You're not!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wildblue 4]

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I'm causing him problems?

Um... yeah, actually.
I'm just trying to keep you honest Chris. I like a lot of the things you've done around here, and keeping track of incidents on your site, and things like that. However, you've shown a dislike for Paul Fayard and his planes in the past - bordering on personal vendetta. I don't know what you have against Paul, or if you even do, but you've come across that way more than once. Your post under the guise of helping people keep their eyes open and question the airworthiness of Paul's planes - maybe I just took it wrong. But throwing out a leading question, and then implying that it would affect the safety of flying on his planes, coupled with some of your past comments and feelings about Fayard - I just think it was a little unfair of you, that's all.

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I think the problems Paul has are of his own making

Actually, the DZs that owe Fayard money are the ones I'd be more worried about.

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Why would the Security and Exchange Comission list themselves or get involved

There's a couple dozen possible reasons - most of them not involving illegal activites on Fayard's part.

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Vallerina 2]

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Thats kind of odd seeing as the information is already in place and listed online as of being filed as of 2/27/03 I believe.

Yes, he's filing Chapter 11, not 7. Big difference. Since I'm not going to keep adding on replies...By filing Chapter 11, some may argue that he is on top of his finances, despite the fact that this has been a rough year (like many had mentioned, not just for him.) Some may argue that by filing Chapter 11, he is doing the responsible thing. Filing Chapter 7...well, things have already gone too far at that point.

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This information was posted as a heads up for jumpers, not meant to bash.

Like I said, I had no intentions of arguing what he meant, but it came across as negative.

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Fayard needs to step up to the plate and do his best to make things work and be safe.

Some may argue that by filing Chapter 11 he is doing so.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[billvon 2,433]

>I just think it was a little unfair of you, that's all.


Let me take another situation.

Let's say a large DZ has 10 full-time instructors and a bunch of coaches. They crank through 150-200 student jumps a week. Then they have financial problems and lay off 8 of those 10 instructors. They still seem to be cranking through almost 200 students per week.

Might that be worth pointing out to people? To question whether it's safe to put up 15 students per instructor per day, 7 days a week? To question whether they're using unrated JM's to get those numbers? Or would that be a personal vendetta against the DZO?

We talk all the time about self-regulation in this sport. Most of us think it's a good thing. If, every time someone questions an operation the response is "why do you hate the DZO so much?" then any hope we have of self-regulation is gone.

Chris is a very experienced pilot and skydiver, and I've known him to be fair in his judgement. In this case, he may be fair, he may not be. If he's being fair, he may just be instrumental in saving the lives of a dozen of our friends. If he's not being fair, ignore him. I would much, much rather err on the side of caution, and I would encourage people like Chris to question DZO's about safety, maintenance and legality issues. We've lost too many skydivers to ignore problems like this.

[Jessica 0]

I have nothing of value to add to this discussion, but I thought I'd pipe in here and say I really appreciate Chris's posting news relevant to the sport.

Does anyone doubt that this will pop up in the "Maybe you've heard" column in Skydiving magazine next month? It's not a secret.

People's loyalties are making them act crazy. It's like when an incident is posted, and the subject's friends get all crazy pissed and say "it's a special situation!" No it's not.

Anyway, thanks to Chris, and everyone else who helps me stay plugged into to this complex sport.

Skydiving is for cool people only