How many lines breaking/snapping would cause you to cutaway

[Mark24688m 0]

so, how many? Im looking for a good answer to use as a general rule. Assume the steering lines are fine, because if i had a broken steering line i would cutaway anyway considering I have absolutely no experience landing with the rear risers.

[winsor 187]

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so, how many? Im looking for a good answer to use as a general rule. Assume the steering lines are fine, because if i had a broken steering line i would cutaway anyway considering I have absolutely no experience landing with the rear risers.

First off, learn to fly with the rears. I learned to fly an elliptical on rear risers after breaking a steering line. A couple of practice flares can give you a pretty good idea of what to expect. It can be better to fly a parachute that is open and stable than to bet the ranch on a parachute that is not yet open.

As far as quite how many lines are broken goes, the primary issue is whether or not it is landable. I have had suspension lines break and landed the parachute, and I have had them break and cut away from the resulting spin.

If you have any broken lines, put it through a controllability check, to include a practice flare. If it does evil things at altitude, change parachutes. If it basically behaves in a predictable manner, put it down somewhere safe.

With a round, the magic number is 6. A four-line release is a standard mod, and you can land a flat-circular with any 5 lines broken. If it gets to 6, get rid of it.

I do not have a hard and fast policy with regard to number of broken lines on a square, however, so I did not fill out your survey.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[councilman24 36]

Two many variable depending on location. Best answer, it depends. And as windsor pointed out your poll may not go high enough. Also upper lines above the cascade or below the cascade meaning to fer one?

As for cutting away with a broken steering line, again why use your last chance to live? If you can either release the other one or cut it before any turn/spin becomes to fast and you get too low then you should keep you first, good canopy. Practice up high with rear risers on the next jump, if traffic allows.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[rave4funn 0]

I had two broken lines and cut away.

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http://www.myspace.com/rave4funn

[nbblood 0]

I would chalk one broken line up to shit happens. More than one makes me question what exactly happened to cause multiple broken lines. What else could possibly be wrong with the canopy? It may fly fine at altitude. Will it still fly fine at 100 feet or will the integrity of the canopy deteriorate during descent? Did a line cut through the broken lines? How many more are hanging by a thread?More than one broken line would make me question the integrity of the canopy. Just my take on it.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[faulknerwn 37]

It depends on where the lines are (so I didn't answer your poll.) A lines are way more likely to cause problems than D lines. I once did an entire CRW jump with a broken D line and never even realized it!

Both brake lines could be broken and it still be landable. Not necessarily so with 2 A lines..

[NWFlyer 2]

My feeling is if that if you have enough time to count them, it may be few enough that you might evaluate landing the canopy.

But as others have said, this is probably not something that falls into the "hard and fast" rule department... I had four (including a steering line) break on the right side, which had the canopy into a dramatic enough turn that I didn't have time to count them before I hit my decision altitude. I knew I had "a few" and that the canopy wasn't something I could control. That's all I needed to know to make my decision to chop. It wasn't till the canopy was recovered later that I actually hung it up, counted, and looked at the break points and which lines were broken.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Amazon 7]

I chopped my Triathalon with 5 main lines broken below the cascades...it was lookin a bit ugly and very apparent I was not landing that thing...

I have landed several canopies with broken steering lines....my parafoil used to break them all the time..and a rigger ( he has not packed my rig ever again) put my toggles backon improperly after he used the container to try out a BASE canopy .

I looked up after pulling the toggles and one toggle had let loose from the steering line and it was trailing my canopy... sunset load.. out over a bayou in Mississippi...and I was SOOO not going to give my canopy to Swamp Thing. Learning to land on rear risers is a very valuable skill.

[bob.dino 0]

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If you have any broken lines, put it through a controllability check, to include a practice flare. If it does evil things at altitude, change parachutes. If it basically behaves in a predictable manner, put it down somewhere safe.

Do you know what's really hard to estimate at 2000ft? Descent rate.

By the time you figure out that your canopy is descending inadvisably fast, it may be too late to get something else over your head.

That's why I'd err of the side of getting off it. The chances of a reserve malfunction are an awful lot lower than the chances of me mis-estimating the survivability of landing my damaged parachute.

[deadbug 0]

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If you have any broken lines, put it through a controllability check, to include a practice flare. If it does evil things at altitude, change parachutes. If it basically behaves in a predictable manner, put it down somewhere safe.

Do you know what's really hard to estimate at 2000ft? Descent rate.

By the time you figure out that your canopy is descending inadvisably fast, it may be too late to get something else over your head.

That's why I'd err of the side of getting off it. The chances of a reserve malfunction are an awful lot lower than the chances of me mis-estimating the survivability of landing my damaged parachute.

My sprained ankle would have to agree with that statement. Two and a half weeks ago I landed a partial mal that had a higher descent rate than I realized. At 2000 ft made the final decision to land it. At 500 ft realized that was a bad decision and the landing was going to hurt. Ooof, PLF, ouch, still limping. That was under a big canopy that I use for CRW (PD218). Wont do that again.

Doug

P.S. The mal wasn't broken lines. This main has a 3 ring bridal and bag retraction system that got hung up on deployment causing the top skin right side to be pulled toward the center. All cells open, but the right 3 not supporting there share of weight. Flying straight with 50% right toggle

[winsor 187]

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If you have any broken lines, put it through a controllability check, to include a practice flare. If it does evil things at altitude, change parachutes. If it basically behaves in a predictable manner, put it down somewhere safe.

Do you know what's really hard to estimate at 2000ft? Descent rate.

By the time you figure out that your canopy is descending inadvisably fast, it may be too late to get something else over your head.

That's why I'd err of the side of getting off it. The chances of a reserve malfunction are an awful lot lower than the chances of me mis-estimating the survivability of landing my damaged parachute.

Where we differ is that you are guessing what WOULD you do, and I am telling you what DID I do.

As far as being able to tell how rapid is your descent, it is not as big a deal as you imagine. With a broken steering line, your full-flight characteristics are the same as with the line intact, so your initial rate of descent is the same.

The point of a test flare at altitude is to evaluate your control authority on rear risers. Since rear risers require less input to produce the same flare on most canopies, the problem with waiting until short final before checking flare characteristics is that yanking down vigorously can stall the canopy. If you have the feel dialed in, landing is no big deal.

If you take the time to learn rear-riser control when you have both steering lines attached, it will not be an emergency if a steering line breaks.

In conclusion, pretty much any canopy out there can be landed in full control with rear risers, so a broken steering line is something of a non-event. To summarily cut away a controllable, landable canopy is typically a bad idea.

If you don't know how to fly your canopy with rear risers, learn.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[bch7773 0]

totally dependent on which lines break.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Remster 24]

Totally depends on the controlability test.

Remster

[skybytch 259]

The general rule that I was taught is more than one suspension line = cutaway.

When two center D lines snapped on a brutally hard opening I chose to ignore that general rule and land it. The opening was hard enough that my brain wasn't working real well; I thought that it slowed down "enough" when I did a practice flare but I was wrong. It wasn't a pretty landing. After that experience I decided to stick with the general rule that I was taught in the future.

One broken suspension line would be different. As others have said, cutting away or not would depend on which line and the results of a controllability check.

[chuckbrown 0]

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Totally depends on the controlability test.

That's my vote. I've cutaway a canopy with 1 broken line that failed this test.

[TheBachelor 5]

I wouldn't use a "general rule." If I had time to do a control check, then that's what I would do. If the control check told me I couldn't land it, or if I ran out of time trying to decide, I'd chop it.

There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years...

[shermanator 3]

THIS might give you an answer.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[Baksteen 84]

While you basically give good advice, I'd like to point out that the OP has only 25 jumps, and I have 85.

Don't you think that for people like us it would be better to trust the rigger's packing more than our judgement as to whether something is landable or not?
I'm not saying that I reach for my reserve handle for every linetwist, but I would rather land a perfectly good reserve and get chewed out for a totally unnecessary cutaway, than trying to land a might-be-landable partial mal.

I reckon that to jumpers like myself the old "when in doubt, whip it out" is more applicable.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I'm not saying that I reach for my reserve handle for every linetwist, but I would rather land a perfectly good reserve and get chewed out for a totally unnecessary cutaway, than trying to land a might-be-landable partial mal.

I reckon that to jumpers like myself the old "when in doubt, whip it out" is more applicable.

I agree. You might learn from even an unnecessary cutaway. I'm not a fun of in-flight-rigging either.
I had some reserve rides. If I have any doubt, there would not be any hesitation...

We had a hero landed a line-over with minor injuries. I have not seen it.

[councilman24 36]

I don't disagree with anything you said. Your the one in control. Your the one that has to make the decision. I NEVER chew anybody out for cutting away. I wasn't there and can't second guess the decision.

But, it seems that I see more comments like "rather land a perfectly good reserve". There is no guarentee that a reserve won't malfunction, no matter how good the pack job. I've had a reserve try to kill me with a total malfunction for 1400'.

By all means "when in doubt whip it out" applies to all of us. I just try to counter some of what I see as the belief in the infailability of the reserves. By all means use it when needed but recognize that it is your last chance.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[azureriders 0]

I am not for sure what number I would use, but I know that it is no more than 6. I broke 6 on a seven cell, all below the cascades. So that is 6 broken of 16 total, not counting steering lines, which by the way were fine. All 4 on the right front, 1 on the right rear, and 1 on the left front. Yeah, I cut that away.

[br0k3n 0]

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Do you know what's really hard to estimate at 2000ft? Descent rate.

Well unless you are wearing a neptune, then you will be able to tell exactly what your decent rate is...

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+

[deadbug 0]

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Do you know what's really hard to estimate at 2000ft? Descent rate.

Well unless you are wearing a neptune, then you will be able to tell exactly what your decent rate is...

Ah... Don't quite understand that. Lets say your steady state descent rate is doubled due to broken lines or a partial mal. At 2000ft it's very hard to tell the difference between 20ft/sec and 40ft/sec. Once you get down to 500ft or so, you have a frame of reference due to your proximity to the ground. One other thing to consider is that if your canopy is descending faster due to any of the above reasons, it is likely that it won't flare with as much power and or will stall at a higher airspeed.

Doug

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Once you get down to 500ft or so, you have a frame of reference due to your proximity to the ground. One other thing to consider is that if your canopy is descending faster due to any of the above reasons, it is likely that it won't flare with as much power and or will stall at a higher airspeed.

Amen to that. 17 years ago I broke one A-B line on a Cirrus Cloud. It steered and seemed to flare fine. At tree top level, I realized I had made a big mistake in keeping it. Fast rate of descent, a stalling flare, and the best PLF I could muster left me on crutches for a month. Vskydiver was 9 months pregnant at the time. I was in the delivery room next week, on crutches. Our OB, a pilot, thought it was funny as hell.

[br0k3n 0]

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Do you know what's really hard to estimate at 2000ft? Descent rate.

Well unless you are wearing a neptune, then you will be able to tell exactly what your decent rate is...

Ah... Don't quite understand that. Lets say your steady state descent rate is doubled due to broken lines or a partial mal. At 2000ft it's very hard to tell the difference between 20ft/sec and 40ft/sec. Once you get down to 500ft or so, you have a frame of reference due to your proximity to the ground. One other thing to consider is that if your canopy is descending faster due to any of the above reasons, it is likely that it won't flare with as much power and or will stall at a higher airspeed.

Doug

The neptune display has decent rate in ft/sec. it is displayed underneath the altitude.

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--+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+