skinnyshrek 0 #51 November 8, 2007 Quote Quote Most of these posts remind me of grandma saying, AHHH your going to kill yourself on that motorcycle AHHH. Who gives a fuck, he's a grown boy. Guys like Roger and Bob do. amen to that.http://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #52 November 8, 2007 QuoteMost of these posts remind me of grandma saying, AHHH your going to kill yourself on that motorcycle AHHH. Who gives a fuck, he's a grown boy. I care because I don't want to be hit by an unguided meat missle. I once stood exactly where some one was about to bounce but had the sense to backup 10' for a better view. I don't want the added danger of people dying any closer than that. It also puts a real dent in the vibe. The last time there was a fatality on my load we stopped jumping and everyone was more into talking with police department grief counselors than drinking beer. I also don't like people getting hurt or dying, especially friends and even schmucks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #53 November 8, 2007 I understand all that noone wants that shit to happen. You guys bring down the mood on these forums by telling everyone with x amount of jumps on x canopy they will die. I get tired of hearing that crap. That is just like others saying hey you skydive? Well, you are probably going to die. Both are ignorant and narrow minded answersdon't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #54 November 8, 2007 QuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. Quote Do ya KNOW any...many?MeYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #55 November 8, 2007 QuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. Quote Do ya KNOW any...many? Me.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites denete 2 #56 November 8, 2007 Quote I understand all that noone wants that shit to happen. You guys bring down the mood on these forums by telling everyone with x amount of jumps on x canopy they will die. I get tired of hearing that crap. You could try Alt-F4 if you're running Windows, or Command-Q if you're running MacOS. Either way it might help you find the solution that you're looking for. - DavidSCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 2shay 0 #57 November 8, 2007 you got it smart guy! LOLdon't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #58 November 8, 2007 QuoteQuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. Quote Do ya KNOW any...many?Me Fact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #59 November 8, 2007 QuoteQuotewent from a 230 to a 150 (WL 1.35) at 50 jumps admitedly it was semi eliptical, but i have not femured. I think sometimes we focuss TOOMUCH attention on WL and canopy and not enough on skill level and training. Ever notice in threads like this it's always the people who have been in the sport less then ten years, with most of um being around only 5 or less years, say crap like this.... There is a whole bunch of those types in this thread! Just because a few of you got and are still getting lucky don't mean we need to encourge others to be fools. Many of you post all your bullshit talking smack and sound just like Mr. Nelson used too. that does not make our experiences less valid. Here in OZ we have a different culture to downsizing than most people in the USA do. Many of our guys/girls go from student gear to 150-170 range loading them up to 1.2 -13. ish. It's not uncommon at all here. When i was downsizing my instructors actively campaigned against me getting a 170. These instructors have 15-20 years in the game and 7000 plus jumps each. they also knew who i was and how i fly. So excuse me if i defered to their opinions and advice over yoursYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #60 November 8, 2007 Yep, if we don't have stats to back it up, common sense can't be true. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #61 November 8, 2007 QuoteYep, if we don't have stats to back it up, common sense can't be true. Dave No, common sense says we don't know if it's true or not.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #62 November 8, 2007 Hey, I figured I'd throw in some info at this point. The thread is coming up with some good info now, and not always just anal comments, but still a fair bit. People wonder why I get defensive when there's no productive/helpful info being given. Whether any of you choose to believe it or not, I am not at all as defensive in real life as my posts come of in here. There are users posting on here that know me in person and they know that I'm the first person to ask for advice, opinions, what should I do, when, how many etc... These same people have seen my landings and mentality and seem to have no issues with me jumping the canopy. They recommend I be careful, but don't think I'm retarded or anything like that. If you were to talk to my instructors, they would be able to tell you that I do a lot of H+P's to play with my canopy, I don't swoop or ever attempt any sort of maneuvers on landing, I always listen to information that someone is willing to share etc. When I bought this canopy, the instructor I was talking to about it BEFORE I bought it, I'm sure I pissed him off with all my questions/concerns. I'm getting the feeling that people suspect I'm doing riser turns or hook turns for my landings. If you look at the video of me jumping the Comp Cobalt....those are my approaches 100% of the time. I understand everyone's concern, and realize that if I get into a corner, it can go bad, but just as bad on the 135. The best I can do is do everything in my power to reduce the risk and not get into that corner. Anyways, just wanted to share that, but I'm not posting anymore about my canopy, jumps, etc. Thanks for the advice that has been brought up so far."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skinnyshrek 0 #63 November 8, 2007 dont go off the posts here, sometimes you have to experience shit for yourself. Just one example, we had a guy downsizing way to quick at our dz. He used to land the canopy fine etc etc etc. But the main problem is, he was not aware of any other canopies around him. This is one of the biggest problem when it comes to downsizing to quick. You may be a great pilot, but as you progress in the sport you will become more aware of your surroundings. In total, i have seen 3 deaths 1 full on bounce due to people flying canopies they had no business on. They landed the canopies fine but they were hazzards waiting to happen. I hope you never get to see some of the shit people on here have witnessed due to idiots under fully inflated canopies. It really wakes you up. Or, watching someone hook in and femur or give them brain damage is not fun either. These have all been people that were told about their canopy skills. Friends i might add. Some people fly under the radar some don't. As jumpers, there is nothing worse filling in a police report on someone you care about, because of someone elses actions. I unfortunately have seen too much in my skydiving life to see any more. Just keep your heads up out there and stay safehttp://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ficus 0 #64 November 8, 2007 QuoteI understand everyone's concern, and realize that if I get into a corner, it can go bad, but just as bad on the 135. Dude, no. Without commenting at all on anything else in this post, come on. You know this is wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Baksteen 84 #65 November 8, 2007 Chris, i've been wondering, If you have no interest in swooping, why did you choose this particular canopy, regardless of size/skills? It is specifically designed and sold as a swooping canopy. I'm not condemning you, I'm just curious."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #66 November 8, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. Quote Do ya KNOW any...many?Me Fact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently. So do you think anyone at any level of skill or jump numbers should be able to jump whatever canopy they choose regardless of how small it is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #67 November 8, 2007 I think there'd be a real challenge if we were to have statistics about the risk in skydiving. We might find, for instance, that the risk of serious injury or death goes up by a factor of 5 on a per jump basis for someone over the USPA's WL advisory chart. But that might mean on an annual basis that someone with more experience yet who makes five times as many jumps in a year (someone with only 100 jumps can't have made more than 100 in a year) may be at greater overall risk of serious injury / death, even if they are at a much lower risk on each jump. Pretending we could calculate a person's risk of injury/death per jump, would it be ethical to limit them to X number of jumps per year on the basis of their marginal propensity to get hurt? What should the threshold be? 0.1% per annum?My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 143 #68 November 8, 2007 QuoteFact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently. Kallend surely from a pure learning point of view it is obvious that the lower someones experience level is the higher their likelihood of making a mistake? The higher the performance level the more likely a serious injury will result. The same is true in lots of dangerous activities (motorcycling for example has far more deaths on >100hp sports bikes with riders <3 years experience). I don't think that the jump numbers question is the right focus as you can have many skydives and yet little or no experience. This is not recipricol though - you can't have experience and low jump numbers. Surely the right approach is a structured progression system geared towards canopy progression for those who want it. Finally the number of deaths under canopy are rising fairly rapidly I would say that this indicates a problem in the current attitude towards parachute flight.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #69 November 8, 2007 QuoteSo do you think anyone at any level of skill or jump numbers should be able to jump whatever canopy they choose regardless of how small it is? Philosophically, sure, why not? We live in free countries, so it's our choice as adults to endanger ourselves as we see fit - as long as it doesn't endanger anyone else, or screw up some DZ's business, or pilot's license, etc. I mean, that's essentially what BASE jumpers do, right? They generally take higher risks than sport skydivers do, but they accept the responsibility for their own gear, finding their own launch-points and for their own safety. But most importantly - let's all pay attention now - THEY DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE TO BE THEIR ENABLERS. So yeah, just as Johnny has the right to base jump, so, too, does he have the right to skydive a napkin at only 25 jumps' experience. But if a DZO or pilot refuses to provide him with the venue, or the plane, tough shit, because that's their right, too. Let him find a different DZO and pilot who will cooperate with him. Or failing that, let him arrange his own bandit jump. Oh, he can't afford that? Reference "tough shit", above. In fact, I know some people who base jump but hardly ever skydive for exactly that reason: sport skydiving is dependent upon venues that impose rules, but base jumping is not. Fine; more power to 'em. If 25-jump Johnny tells me he's jumping a napkin, and that he understands and, as an adult, he consciously accepts the high level of risk that presents to him at that low experience level, and convinces me he's not endangering or screwing anyone else, then that's fine by me. But if he tries to tell me that he'll be just fine because he's a rare prodigy, and that experienced experts who give him warnings are just jealous pussies, then he can talk to the hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #70 November 8, 2007 Honestly? Not knowing the jumper/seeing him jump: 60% chance nothing ever bad happens, or the injury is minor (broken/sprained ankle.) The jumper gets coaching, avoids other jumpers until he gets better under canopy, learns how to front riser, flat turn etc and does OK. 30% chance major injury - femur or equivalent. I actually hope this happens in many cases, because it can prevent: 10% chance of fatality. I used to hope such jumpers never got hurt, but I watched them get seriously injured/killed with depressing regularity. Then I noticed that the ones that broke their femurs tended to upsize, get coaching, become more conservative etc. I started hoping that they did receive such injuries (if they didn't listen to advice of course) because that seemed to be the best lesson they could learn, and it seems like one that saves lives. Femurs heal well (usually) and the jumper can return to jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #71 November 8, 2007 QuoteKallend surely from a pure learning point of view it is obvious that the lower someones experience level is the higher their likelihood of making a mistake? The higher the performance level the more likely a serious injury will result. The same is true in lots of dangerous activities (motorcycling for example has far more deaths on >100hp sports bikes with riders <3 years experience). New riders hit a danger zone after the first 6-12 months when they start to get comfortable on the motorcycle. So you can't presume a straight progression for skydiving, or that they become less prone to error over time. It may well be that the longer they get from their last form of training, the more likely they are to make a mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ether 0 #72 November 8, 2007 QuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. "There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)" (Wendy W's sig)Looking for newbie rig, all components... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnskydiver688 0 #73 November 8, 2007 This sport is naturally defensive. Letting someone do what they want in this sport as long as it doesn't endanger other people can't work in this sport. Exit separation is one. How do you know the guy behind you will give you enough time after exit? You could be deploying and look over and see this guy open up right next to you. Your only option is to be a defensive skydiver. Free-flying. You are on a jump with a few other guys and one goes out of your field of vision. How do you know he is not on a collision course with the back of your head? It isn't enough to make sure you are doing everything you can to survive, but also knowing until you are back in the packing tent you have to be on the defensive. Some say let him be. Let him make his own decisions and envitably his own mistakes. He might decide to say screw you all and jump the canopy he wants, but then it is your responsibility to defend yourself from possible injury or death caused by his actions. Don't jump with him, hang up there and let him land first, land far away from him, talk to the DZO about the safety risk he poses to others and ask for him to be grounded. Making sure the jumper is getting "proper" advice is the front line of being defensive, but advice is exactly that, advice. It isn't orders. Be a defensive skydiver.Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #74 November 8, 2007 QuotePeople wonder why I get defensive when there's no productive/helpful info being given. There are users posting on here that know me in person and they know that I'm the first person to ask for advice, opinions, what should I do, when, how many etc... Chris, The basic lesson demonstrated in these threads relates to your decision making process. That process is what caused you to buy an inappropriate canopy. I won’t comment on the canopy, because that has been beaten to death. However, I’d like to share with you my views on your decision making process. I don’t expect you to change anytime soon but maybe you will reflect on it in future years and make better decisions. I also post it because it is not an uncommon problem in the sport. I can point to several people I personally know that have similar flaws in their decision making logic. Those flaws caused them to make poor decisions that seriously injured them radically changing the rest of their life, for the worse. Chris, you have been given a vast amount of excellent information form some of the most knowledgeable people in the sport in these threads and you refuse to recognize it. Why? You are an “opinion shopper.” You make up your mind on a decision prior to seeking input. You then seek advice but when that advice doesn’t agree with your predetermined position you lash out at people and or simply disregard their input. You avoid information that refutes your position and seek to discredit it. You selectively find support for your decision and over emphasize its importance. You ask leading questions designed to elicit a response in support of your position, not fair and balanced questions designed to provide unbiased responses. Most likely you only ask people that you think will tell you what you want to hear. Only when people agree with you do you consider it, “constructive”. Unfortunately, this is actually the normal human decision making process. This is also the nature of politics, legal debates, etc. A proper decision making process to come to the most optimal decision involves seeking out information pro and con on a topic and fairly weighing the information. It is actually a difficult art to learn, it is not engrained in human nature. The problem with “opinion shopping” in the sport of skydiving is that it puts us and others an increased risk of injury or death. In most aspects of our life it does not. Not to belabor the point but a friend of mine had a similar decision making process. He wanted to downsize his canopy and swoop so he sought out advice from people. He only sought advice from some of the most irresponsible swoopers he knew. He heard exactly what he wanted to hear. He would have done well to seek the opinions of others too. It ended badly for him (just crippled not killed) and to this day he thinks he went about it the right way, by seeking advice before the downsized. Sigh… I wish you well and hope that you at least give some thought to what I've said."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #75 November 9, 2007 To a point with only 42 jumps on a sabre 2 170 I should also be a dead person in training. For me I can accept that the 170 is an aggressive choice. It is a reasonable challenge and everyone who has seen and jumped with me has said that I'll be ok on this canopy. I choose to go with the personal advice of the 50,000 combined jumps that such advice has come from. Both Chris and I may be somewhat natural under a canopy but I don't believe for a second that I'm some sort of prodigy. Just an attentive enough and intelligent enough person to take on a challenge and enjoy myself in the sport. Let's face it, this sport is about enjoying yourself and sometimes people with higher jump numbers hold their nose up at those who are downsizing faster than they did. Hell with a few months in the sport and less than 50 jumps there is no way I know anything about skydiving, canopies, rigs or rigging. Or could I? -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 3 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
kallend 1,623 #55 November 8, 2007 QuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. Quote Do ya KNOW any...many? Me.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites denete 2 #56 November 8, 2007 Quote I understand all that noone wants that shit to happen. You guys bring down the mood on these forums by telling everyone with x amount of jumps on x canopy they will die. I get tired of hearing that crap. You could try Alt-F4 if you're running Windows, or Command-Q if you're running MacOS. Either way it might help you find the solution that you're looking for. - DavidSCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 2shay 0 #57 November 8, 2007 you got it smart guy! LOLdon't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #58 November 8, 2007 QuoteQuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. Quote Do ya KNOW any...many?Me Fact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #59 November 8, 2007 QuoteQuotewent from a 230 to a 150 (WL 1.35) at 50 jumps admitedly it was semi eliptical, but i have not femured. I think sometimes we focuss TOOMUCH attention on WL and canopy and not enough on skill level and training. Ever notice in threads like this it's always the people who have been in the sport less then ten years, with most of um being around only 5 or less years, say crap like this.... There is a whole bunch of those types in this thread! Just because a few of you got and are still getting lucky don't mean we need to encourge others to be fools. Many of you post all your bullshit talking smack and sound just like Mr. Nelson used too. that does not make our experiences less valid. Here in OZ we have a different culture to downsizing than most people in the USA do. Many of our guys/girls go from student gear to 150-170 range loading them up to 1.2 -13. ish. It's not uncommon at all here. When i was downsizing my instructors actively campaigned against me getting a 170. These instructors have 15-20 years in the game and 7000 plus jumps each. they also knew who i was and how i fly. So excuse me if i defered to their opinions and advice over yoursYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #60 November 8, 2007 Yep, if we don't have stats to back it up, common sense can't be true. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #61 November 8, 2007 QuoteYep, if we don't have stats to back it up, common sense can't be true. Dave No, common sense says we don't know if it's true or not.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #62 November 8, 2007 Hey, I figured I'd throw in some info at this point. The thread is coming up with some good info now, and not always just anal comments, but still a fair bit. People wonder why I get defensive when there's no productive/helpful info being given. Whether any of you choose to believe it or not, I am not at all as defensive in real life as my posts come of in here. There are users posting on here that know me in person and they know that I'm the first person to ask for advice, opinions, what should I do, when, how many etc... These same people have seen my landings and mentality and seem to have no issues with me jumping the canopy. They recommend I be careful, but don't think I'm retarded or anything like that. If you were to talk to my instructors, they would be able to tell you that I do a lot of H+P's to play with my canopy, I don't swoop or ever attempt any sort of maneuvers on landing, I always listen to information that someone is willing to share etc. When I bought this canopy, the instructor I was talking to about it BEFORE I bought it, I'm sure I pissed him off with all my questions/concerns. I'm getting the feeling that people suspect I'm doing riser turns or hook turns for my landings. If you look at the video of me jumping the Comp Cobalt....those are my approaches 100% of the time. I understand everyone's concern, and realize that if I get into a corner, it can go bad, but just as bad on the 135. The best I can do is do everything in my power to reduce the risk and not get into that corner. Anyways, just wanted to share that, but I'm not posting anymore about my canopy, jumps, etc. Thanks for the advice that has been brought up so far."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skinnyshrek 0 #63 November 8, 2007 dont go off the posts here, sometimes you have to experience shit for yourself. Just one example, we had a guy downsizing way to quick at our dz. He used to land the canopy fine etc etc etc. But the main problem is, he was not aware of any other canopies around him. This is one of the biggest problem when it comes to downsizing to quick. You may be a great pilot, but as you progress in the sport you will become more aware of your surroundings. In total, i have seen 3 deaths 1 full on bounce due to people flying canopies they had no business on. They landed the canopies fine but they were hazzards waiting to happen. I hope you never get to see some of the shit people on here have witnessed due to idiots under fully inflated canopies. It really wakes you up. Or, watching someone hook in and femur or give them brain damage is not fun either. These have all been people that were told about their canopy skills. Friends i might add. Some people fly under the radar some don't. As jumpers, there is nothing worse filling in a police report on someone you care about, because of someone elses actions. I unfortunately have seen too much in my skydiving life to see any more. Just keep your heads up out there and stay safehttp://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ficus 0 #64 November 8, 2007 QuoteI understand everyone's concern, and realize that if I get into a corner, it can go bad, but just as bad on the 135. Dude, no. Without commenting at all on anything else in this post, come on. You know this is wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Baksteen 84 #65 November 8, 2007 Chris, i've been wondering, If you have no interest in swooping, why did you choose this particular canopy, regardless of size/skills? It is specifically designed and sold as a swooping canopy. I'm not condemning you, I'm just curious."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #66 November 8, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. Quote Do ya KNOW any...many?Me Fact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently. So do you think anyone at any level of skill or jump numbers should be able to jump whatever canopy they choose regardless of how small it is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #67 November 8, 2007 I think there'd be a real challenge if we were to have statistics about the risk in skydiving. We might find, for instance, that the risk of serious injury or death goes up by a factor of 5 on a per jump basis for someone over the USPA's WL advisory chart. But that might mean on an annual basis that someone with more experience yet who makes five times as many jumps in a year (someone with only 100 jumps can't have made more than 100 in a year) may be at greater overall risk of serious injury / death, even if they are at a much lower risk on each jump. Pretending we could calculate a person's risk of injury/death per jump, would it be ethical to limit them to X number of jumps per year on the basis of their marginal propensity to get hurt? What should the threshold be? 0.1% per annum?My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 143 #68 November 8, 2007 QuoteFact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently. Kallend surely from a pure learning point of view it is obvious that the lower someones experience level is the higher their likelihood of making a mistake? The higher the performance level the more likely a serious injury will result. The same is true in lots of dangerous activities (motorcycling for example has far more deaths on >100hp sports bikes with riders <3 years experience). I don't think that the jump numbers question is the right focus as you can have many skydives and yet little or no experience. This is not recipricol though - you can't have experience and low jump numbers. Surely the right approach is a structured progression system geared towards canopy progression for those who want it. Finally the number of deaths under canopy are rising fairly rapidly I would say that this indicates a problem in the current attitude towards parachute flight.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #69 November 8, 2007 QuoteSo do you think anyone at any level of skill or jump numbers should be able to jump whatever canopy they choose regardless of how small it is? Philosophically, sure, why not? We live in free countries, so it's our choice as adults to endanger ourselves as we see fit - as long as it doesn't endanger anyone else, or screw up some DZ's business, or pilot's license, etc. I mean, that's essentially what BASE jumpers do, right? They generally take higher risks than sport skydivers do, but they accept the responsibility for their own gear, finding their own launch-points and for their own safety. But most importantly - let's all pay attention now - THEY DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE TO BE THEIR ENABLERS. So yeah, just as Johnny has the right to base jump, so, too, does he have the right to skydive a napkin at only 25 jumps' experience. But if a DZO or pilot refuses to provide him with the venue, or the plane, tough shit, because that's their right, too. Let him find a different DZO and pilot who will cooperate with him. Or failing that, let him arrange his own bandit jump. Oh, he can't afford that? Reference "tough shit", above. In fact, I know some people who base jump but hardly ever skydive for exactly that reason: sport skydiving is dependent upon venues that impose rules, but base jumping is not. Fine; more power to 'em. If 25-jump Johnny tells me he's jumping a napkin, and that he understands and, as an adult, he consciously accepts the high level of risk that presents to him at that low experience level, and convinces me he's not endangering or screwing anyone else, then that's fine by me. But if he tries to tell me that he'll be just fine because he's a rare prodigy, and that experienced experts who give him warnings are just jealous pussies, then he can talk to the hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #70 November 8, 2007 Honestly? Not knowing the jumper/seeing him jump: 60% chance nothing ever bad happens, or the injury is minor (broken/sprained ankle.) The jumper gets coaching, avoids other jumpers until he gets better under canopy, learns how to front riser, flat turn etc and does OK. 30% chance major injury - femur or equivalent. I actually hope this happens in many cases, because it can prevent: 10% chance of fatality. I used to hope such jumpers never got hurt, but I watched them get seriously injured/killed with depressing regularity. Then I noticed that the ones that broke their femurs tended to upsize, get coaching, become more conservative etc. I started hoping that they did receive such injuries (if they didn't listen to advice of course) because that seemed to be the best lesson they could learn, and it seems like one that saves lives. Femurs heal well (usually) and the jumper can return to jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #71 November 8, 2007 QuoteKallend surely from a pure learning point of view it is obvious that the lower someones experience level is the higher their likelihood of making a mistake? The higher the performance level the more likely a serious injury will result. The same is true in lots of dangerous activities (motorcycling for example has far more deaths on >100hp sports bikes with riders <3 years experience). New riders hit a danger zone after the first 6-12 months when they start to get comfortable on the motorcycle. So you can't presume a straight progression for skydiving, or that they become less prone to error over time. It may well be that the longer they get from their last form of training, the more likely they are to make a mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ether 0 #72 November 8, 2007 QuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. "There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)" (Wendy W's sig)Looking for newbie rig, all components... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnskydiver688 0 #73 November 8, 2007 This sport is naturally defensive. Letting someone do what they want in this sport as long as it doesn't endanger other people can't work in this sport. Exit separation is one. How do you know the guy behind you will give you enough time after exit? You could be deploying and look over and see this guy open up right next to you. Your only option is to be a defensive skydiver. Free-flying. You are on a jump with a few other guys and one goes out of your field of vision. How do you know he is not on a collision course with the back of your head? It isn't enough to make sure you are doing everything you can to survive, but also knowing until you are back in the packing tent you have to be on the defensive. Some say let him be. Let him make his own decisions and envitably his own mistakes. He might decide to say screw you all and jump the canopy he wants, but then it is your responsibility to defend yourself from possible injury or death caused by his actions. Don't jump with him, hang up there and let him land first, land far away from him, talk to the DZO about the safety risk he poses to others and ask for him to be grounded. Making sure the jumper is getting "proper" advice is the front line of being defensive, but advice is exactly that, advice. It isn't orders. Be a defensive skydiver.Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #74 November 8, 2007 QuotePeople wonder why I get defensive when there's no productive/helpful info being given. There are users posting on here that know me in person and they know that I'm the first person to ask for advice, opinions, what should I do, when, how many etc... Chris, The basic lesson demonstrated in these threads relates to your decision making process. That process is what caused you to buy an inappropriate canopy. I won’t comment on the canopy, because that has been beaten to death. However, I’d like to share with you my views on your decision making process. I don’t expect you to change anytime soon but maybe you will reflect on it in future years and make better decisions. I also post it because it is not an uncommon problem in the sport. I can point to several people I personally know that have similar flaws in their decision making logic. Those flaws caused them to make poor decisions that seriously injured them radically changing the rest of their life, for the worse. Chris, you have been given a vast amount of excellent information form some of the most knowledgeable people in the sport in these threads and you refuse to recognize it. Why? You are an “opinion shopper.” You make up your mind on a decision prior to seeking input. You then seek advice but when that advice doesn’t agree with your predetermined position you lash out at people and or simply disregard their input. You avoid information that refutes your position and seek to discredit it. You selectively find support for your decision and over emphasize its importance. You ask leading questions designed to elicit a response in support of your position, not fair and balanced questions designed to provide unbiased responses. Most likely you only ask people that you think will tell you what you want to hear. Only when people agree with you do you consider it, “constructive”. Unfortunately, this is actually the normal human decision making process. This is also the nature of politics, legal debates, etc. A proper decision making process to come to the most optimal decision involves seeking out information pro and con on a topic and fairly weighing the information. It is actually a difficult art to learn, it is not engrained in human nature. The problem with “opinion shopping” in the sport of skydiving is that it puts us and others an increased risk of injury or death. In most aspects of our life it does not. Not to belabor the point but a friend of mine had a similar decision making process. He wanted to downsize his canopy and swoop so he sought out advice from people. He only sought advice from some of the most irresponsible swoopers he knew. He heard exactly what he wanted to hear. He would have done well to seek the opinions of others too. It ended badly for him (just crippled not killed) and to this day he thinks he went about it the right way, by seeking advice before the downsized. Sigh… I wish you well and hope that you at least give some thought to what I've said."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #75 November 9, 2007 To a point with only 42 jumps on a sabre 2 170 I should also be a dead person in training. For me I can accept that the 170 is an aggressive choice. It is a reasonable challenge and everyone who has seen and jumped with me has said that I'll be ok on this canopy. I choose to go with the personal advice of the 50,000 combined jumps that such advice has come from. Both Chris and I may be somewhat natural under a canopy but I don't believe for a second that I'm some sort of prodigy. Just an attentive enough and intelligent enough person to take on a challenge and enjoy myself in the sport. Let's face it, this sport is about enjoying yourself and sometimes people with higher jump numbers hold their nose up at those who are downsizing faster than they did. Hell with a few months in the sport and less than 50 jumps there is no way I know anything about skydiving, canopies, rigs or rigging. Or could I? -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 3 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
denete 2 #56 November 8, 2007 Quote I understand all that noone wants that shit to happen. You guys bring down the mood on these forums by telling everyone with x amount of jumps on x canopy they will die. I get tired of hearing that crap. You could try Alt-F4 if you're running Windows, or Command-Q if you're running MacOS. Either way it might help you find the solution that you're looking for. - DavidSCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2shay 0 #57 November 8, 2007 you got it smart guy! LOLdon't try your bullshit with me!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #58 November 8, 2007 QuoteQuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. Quote Do ya KNOW any...many?Me Fact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Squeak 17 #59 November 8, 2007 QuoteQuotewent from a 230 to a 150 (WL 1.35) at 50 jumps admitedly it was semi eliptical, but i have not femured. I think sometimes we focuss TOOMUCH attention on WL and canopy and not enough on skill level and training. Ever notice in threads like this it's always the people who have been in the sport less then ten years, with most of um being around only 5 or less years, say crap like this.... There is a whole bunch of those types in this thread! Just because a few of you got and are still getting lucky don't mean we need to encourge others to be fools. Many of you post all your bullshit talking smack and sound just like Mr. Nelson used too. that does not make our experiences less valid. Here in OZ we have a different culture to downsizing than most people in the USA do. Many of our guys/girls go from student gear to 150-170 range loading them up to 1.2 -13. ish. It's not uncommon at all here. When i was downsizing my instructors actively campaigned against me getting a 170. These instructors have 15-20 years in the game and 7000 plus jumps each. they also knew who i was and how i fly. So excuse me if i defered to their opinions and advice over yoursYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #60 November 8, 2007 Yep, if we don't have stats to back it up, common sense can't be true. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,623 #61 November 8, 2007 QuoteYep, if we don't have stats to back it up, common sense can't be true. Dave No, common sense says we don't know if it's true or not.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Chris-Ottawa 0 #62 November 8, 2007 Hey, I figured I'd throw in some info at this point. The thread is coming up with some good info now, and not always just anal comments, but still a fair bit. People wonder why I get defensive when there's no productive/helpful info being given. Whether any of you choose to believe it or not, I am not at all as defensive in real life as my posts come of in here. There are users posting on here that know me in person and they know that I'm the first person to ask for advice, opinions, what should I do, when, how many etc... These same people have seen my landings and mentality and seem to have no issues with me jumping the canopy. They recommend I be careful, but don't think I'm retarded or anything like that. If you were to talk to my instructors, they would be able to tell you that I do a lot of H+P's to play with my canopy, I don't swoop or ever attempt any sort of maneuvers on landing, I always listen to information that someone is willing to share etc. When I bought this canopy, the instructor I was talking to about it BEFORE I bought it, I'm sure I pissed him off with all my questions/concerns. I'm getting the feeling that people suspect I'm doing riser turns or hook turns for my landings. If you look at the video of me jumping the Comp Cobalt....those are my approaches 100% of the time. I understand everyone's concern, and realize that if I get into a corner, it can go bad, but just as bad on the 135. The best I can do is do everything in my power to reduce the risk and not get into that corner. Anyways, just wanted to share that, but I'm not posting anymore about my canopy, jumps, etc. Thanks for the advice that has been brought up so far."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skinnyshrek 0 #63 November 8, 2007 dont go off the posts here, sometimes you have to experience shit for yourself. Just one example, we had a guy downsizing way to quick at our dz. He used to land the canopy fine etc etc etc. But the main problem is, he was not aware of any other canopies around him. This is one of the biggest problem when it comes to downsizing to quick. You may be a great pilot, but as you progress in the sport you will become more aware of your surroundings. In total, i have seen 3 deaths 1 full on bounce due to people flying canopies they had no business on. They landed the canopies fine but they were hazzards waiting to happen. I hope you never get to see some of the shit people on here have witnessed due to idiots under fully inflated canopies. It really wakes you up. Or, watching someone hook in and femur or give them brain damage is not fun either. These have all been people that were told about their canopy skills. Friends i might add. Some people fly under the radar some don't. As jumpers, there is nothing worse filling in a police report on someone you care about, because of someone elses actions. I unfortunately have seen too much in my skydiving life to see any more. Just keep your heads up out there and stay safehttp://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ficus 0 #64 November 8, 2007 QuoteI understand everyone's concern, and realize that if I get into a corner, it can go bad, but just as bad on the 135. Dude, no. Without commenting at all on anything else in this post, come on. You know this is wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Baksteen 84 #65 November 8, 2007 Chris, i've been wondering, If you have no interest in swooping, why did you choose this particular canopy, regardless of size/skills? It is specifically designed and sold as a swooping canopy. I'm not condemning you, I'm just curious."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites beowulf 1 #66 November 8, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. Quote Do ya KNOW any...many?Me Fact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently. So do you think anyone at any level of skill or jump numbers should be able to jump whatever canopy they choose regardless of how small it is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #67 November 8, 2007 I think there'd be a real challenge if we were to have statistics about the risk in skydiving. We might find, for instance, that the risk of serious injury or death goes up by a factor of 5 on a per jump basis for someone over the USPA's WL advisory chart. But that might mean on an annual basis that someone with more experience yet who makes five times as many jumps in a year (someone with only 100 jumps can't have made more than 100 in a year) may be at greater overall risk of serious injury / death, even if they are at a much lower risk on each jump. Pretending we could calculate a person's risk of injury/death per jump, would it be ethical to limit them to X number of jumps per year on the basis of their marginal propensity to get hurt? What should the threshold be? 0.1% per annum?My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 143 #68 November 8, 2007 QuoteFact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently. Kallend surely from a pure learning point of view it is obvious that the lower someones experience level is the higher their likelihood of making a mistake? The higher the performance level the more likely a serious injury will result. The same is true in lots of dangerous activities (motorcycling for example has far more deaths on >100hp sports bikes with riders <3 years experience). I don't think that the jump numbers question is the right focus as you can have many skydives and yet little or no experience. This is not recipricol though - you can't have experience and low jump numbers. Surely the right approach is a structured progression system geared towards canopy progression for those who want it. Finally the number of deaths under canopy are rising fairly rapidly I would say that this indicates a problem in the current attitude towards parachute flight.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #69 November 8, 2007 QuoteSo do you think anyone at any level of skill or jump numbers should be able to jump whatever canopy they choose regardless of how small it is? Philosophically, sure, why not? We live in free countries, so it's our choice as adults to endanger ourselves as we see fit - as long as it doesn't endanger anyone else, or screw up some DZ's business, or pilot's license, etc. I mean, that's essentially what BASE jumpers do, right? They generally take higher risks than sport skydivers do, but they accept the responsibility for their own gear, finding their own launch-points and for their own safety. But most importantly - let's all pay attention now - THEY DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE TO BE THEIR ENABLERS. So yeah, just as Johnny has the right to base jump, so, too, does he have the right to skydive a napkin at only 25 jumps' experience. But if a DZO or pilot refuses to provide him with the venue, or the plane, tough shit, because that's their right, too. Let him find a different DZO and pilot who will cooperate with him. Or failing that, let him arrange his own bandit jump. Oh, he can't afford that? Reference "tough shit", above. In fact, I know some people who base jump but hardly ever skydive for exactly that reason: sport skydiving is dependent upon venues that impose rules, but base jumping is not. Fine; more power to 'em. If 25-jump Johnny tells me he's jumping a napkin, and that he understands and, as an adult, he consciously accepts the high level of risk that presents to him at that low experience level, and convinces me he's not endangering or screwing anyone else, then that's fine by me. But if he tries to tell me that he'll be just fine because he's a rare prodigy, and that experienced experts who give him warnings are just jealous pussies, then he can talk to the hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #70 November 8, 2007 Honestly? Not knowing the jumper/seeing him jump: 60% chance nothing ever bad happens, or the injury is minor (broken/sprained ankle.) The jumper gets coaching, avoids other jumpers until he gets better under canopy, learns how to front riser, flat turn etc and does OK. 30% chance major injury - femur or equivalent. I actually hope this happens in many cases, because it can prevent: 10% chance of fatality. I used to hope such jumpers never got hurt, but I watched them get seriously injured/killed with depressing regularity. Then I noticed that the ones that broke their femurs tended to upsize, get coaching, become more conservative etc. I started hoping that they did receive such injuries (if they didn't listen to advice of course) because that seemed to be the best lesson they could learn, and it seems like one that saves lives. Femurs heal well (usually) and the jumper can return to jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #71 November 8, 2007 QuoteKallend surely from a pure learning point of view it is obvious that the lower someones experience level is the higher their likelihood of making a mistake? The higher the performance level the more likely a serious injury will result. The same is true in lots of dangerous activities (motorcycling for example has far more deaths on >100hp sports bikes with riders <3 years experience). New riders hit a danger zone after the first 6-12 months when they start to get comfortable on the motorcycle. So you can't presume a straight progression for skydiving, or that they become less prone to error over time. It may well be that the longer they get from their last form of training, the more likely they are to make a mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ether 0 #72 November 8, 2007 QuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. "There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)" (Wendy W's sig)Looking for newbie rig, all components... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnskydiver688 0 #73 November 8, 2007 This sport is naturally defensive. Letting someone do what they want in this sport as long as it doesn't endanger other people can't work in this sport. Exit separation is one. How do you know the guy behind you will give you enough time after exit? You could be deploying and look over and see this guy open up right next to you. Your only option is to be a defensive skydiver. Free-flying. You are on a jump with a few other guys and one goes out of your field of vision. How do you know he is not on a collision course with the back of your head? It isn't enough to make sure you are doing everything you can to survive, but also knowing until you are back in the packing tent you have to be on the defensive. Some say let him be. Let him make his own decisions and envitably his own mistakes. He might decide to say screw you all and jump the canopy he wants, but then it is your responsibility to defend yourself from possible injury or death caused by his actions. Don't jump with him, hang up there and let him land first, land far away from him, talk to the DZO about the safety risk he poses to others and ask for him to be grounded. Making sure the jumper is getting "proper" advice is the front line of being defensive, but advice is exactly that, advice. It isn't orders. Be a defensive skydiver.Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #74 November 8, 2007 QuotePeople wonder why I get defensive when there's no productive/helpful info being given. There are users posting on here that know me in person and they know that I'm the first person to ask for advice, opinions, what should I do, when, how many etc... Chris, The basic lesson demonstrated in these threads relates to your decision making process. That process is what caused you to buy an inappropriate canopy. I won’t comment on the canopy, because that has been beaten to death. However, I’d like to share with you my views on your decision making process. I don’t expect you to change anytime soon but maybe you will reflect on it in future years and make better decisions. I also post it because it is not an uncommon problem in the sport. I can point to several people I personally know that have similar flaws in their decision making logic. Those flaws caused them to make poor decisions that seriously injured them radically changing the rest of their life, for the worse. Chris, you have been given a vast amount of excellent information form some of the most knowledgeable people in the sport in these threads and you refuse to recognize it. Why? You are an “opinion shopper.” You make up your mind on a decision prior to seeking input. You then seek advice but when that advice doesn’t agree with your predetermined position you lash out at people and or simply disregard their input. You avoid information that refutes your position and seek to discredit it. You selectively find support for your decision and over emphasize its importance. You ask leading questions designed to elicit a response in support of your position, not fair and balanced questions designed to provide unbiased responses. Most likely you only ask people that you think will tell you what you want to hear. Only when people agree with you do you consider it, “constructive”. Unfortunately, this is actually the normal human decision making process. This is also the nature of politics, legal debates, etc. A proper decision making process to come to the most optimal decision involves seeking out information pro and con on a topic and fairly weighing the information. It is actually a difficult art to learn, it is not engrained in human nature. The problem with “opinion shopping” in the sport of skydiving is that it puts us and others an increased risk of injury or death. In most aspects of our life it does not. Not to belabor the point but a friend of mine had a similar decision making process. He wanted to downsize his canopy and swoop so he sought out advice from people. He only sought advice from some of the most irresponsible swoopers he knew. He heard exactly what he wanted to hear. He would have done well to seek the opinions of others too. It ended badly for him (just crippled not killed) and to this day he thinks he went about it the right way, by seeking advice before the downsized. Sigh… I wish you well and hope that you at least give some thought to what I've said."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #75 November 9, 2007 To a point with only 42 jumps on a sabre 2 170 I should also be a dead person in training. For me I can accept that the 170 is an aggressive choice. It is a reasonable challenge and everyone who has seen and jumped with me has said that I'll be ok on this canopy. I choose to go with the personal advice of the 50,000 combined jumps that such advice has come from. Both Chris and I may be somewhat natural under a canopy but I don't believe for a second that I'm some sort of prodigy. Just an attentive enough and intelligent enough person to take on a challenge and enjoy myself in the sport. Let's face it, this sport is about enjoying yourself and sometimes people with higher jump numbers hold their nose up at those who are downsizing faster than they did. Hell with a few months in the sport and less than 50 jumps there is no way I know anything about skydiving, canopies, rigs or rigging. Or could I? -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 3 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Squeak 17 #59 November 8, 2007 QuoteQuotewent from a 230 to a 150 (WL 1.35) at 50 jumps admitedly it was semi eliptical, but i have not femured. I think sometimes we focuss TOOMUCH attention on WL and canopy and not enough on skill level and training. Ever notice in threads like this it's always the people who have been in the sport less then ten years, with most of um being around only 5 or less years, say crap like this.... There is a whole bunch of those types in this thread! Just because a few of you got and are still getting lucky don't mean we need to encourge others to be fools. Many of you post all your bullshit talking smack and sound just like Mr. Nelson used too. that does not make our experiences less valid. Here in OZ we have a different culture to downsizing than most people in the USA do. Many of our guys/girls go from student gear to 150-170 range loading them up to 1.2 -13. ish. It's not uncommon at all here. When i was downsizing my instructors actively campaigned against me getting a 170. These instructors have 15-20 years in the game and 7000 plus jumps each. they also knew who i was and how i fly. So excuse me if i defered to their opinions and advice over yoursYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #60 November 8, 2007 Yep, if we don't have stats to back it up, common sense can't be true. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #61 November 8, 2007 QuoteYep, if we don't have stats to back it up, common sense can't be true. Dave No, common sense says we don't know if it's true or not.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chris-Ottawa 0 #62 November 8, 2007 Hey, I figured I'd throw in some info at this point. The thread is coming up with some good info now, and not always just anal comments, but still a fair bit. People wonder why I get defensive when there's no productive/helpful info being given. Whether any of you choose to believe it or not, I am not at all as defensive in real life as my posts come of in here. There are users posting on here that know me in person and they know that I'm the first person to ask for advice, opinions, what should I do, when, how many etc... These same people have seen my landings and mentality and seem to have no issues with me jumping the canopy. They recommend I be careful, but don't think I'm retarded or anything like that. If you were to talk to my instructors, they would be able to tell you that I do a lot of H+P's to play with my canopy, I don't swoop or ever attempt any sort of maneuvers on landing, I always listen to information that someone is willing to share etc. When I bought this canopy, the instructor I was talking to about it BEFORE I bought it, I'm sure I pissed him off with all my questions/concerns. I'm getting the feeling that people suspect I'm doing riser turns or hook turns for my landings. If you look at the video of me jumping the Comp Cobalt....those are my approaches 100% of the time. I understand everyone's concern, and realize that if I get into a corner, it can go bad, but just as bad on the 135. The best I can do is do everything in my power to reduce the risk and not get into that corner. Anyways, just wanted to share that, but I'm not posting anymore about my canopy, jumps, etc. Thanks for the advice that has been brought up so far."When once you have tasted flight..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skinnyshrek 0 #63 November 8, 2007 dont go off the posts here, sometimes you have to experience shit for yourself. Just one example, we had a guy downsizing way to quick at our dz. He used to land the canopy fine etc etc etc. But the main problem is, he was not aware of any other canopies around him. This is one of the biggest problem when it comes to downsizing to quick. You may be a great pilot, but as you progress in the sport you will become more aware of your surroundings. In total, i have seen 3 deaths 1 full on bounce due to people flying canopies they had no business on. They landed the canopies fine but they were hazzards waiting to happen. I hope you never get to see some of the shit people on here have witnessed due to idiots under fully inflated canopies. It really wakes you up. Or, watching someone hook in and femur or give them brain damage is not fun either. These have all been people that were told about their canopy skills. Friends i might add. Some people fly under the radar some don't. As jumpers, there is nothing worse filling in a police report on someone you care about, because of someone elses actions. I unfortunately have seen too much in my skydiving life to see any more. Just keep your heads up out there and stay safehttp://www.skydivethefarm.com do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ficus 0 #64 November 8, 2007 QuoteI understand everyone's concern, and realize that if I get into a corner, it can go bad, but just as bad on the 135. Dude, no. Without commenting at all on anything else in this post, come on. You know this is wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #65 November 8, 2007 Chris, i've been wondering, If you have no interest in swooping, why did you choose this particular canopy, regardless of size/skills? It is specifically designed and sold as a swooping canopy. I'm not condemning you, I'm just curious."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #66 November 8, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. Quote Do ya KNOW any...many?Me Fact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently. So do you think anyone at any level of skill or jump numbers should be able to jump whatever canopy they choose regardless of how small it is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #67 November 8, 2007 I think there'd be a real challenge if we were to have statistics about the risk in skydiving. We might find, for instance, that the risk of serious injury or death goes up by a factor of 5 on a per jump basis for someone over the USPA's WL advisory chart. But that might mean on an annual basis that someone with more experience yet who makes five times as many jumps in a year (someone with only 100 jumps can't have made more than 100 in a year) may be at greater overall risk of serious injury / death, even if they are at a much lower risk on each jump. Pretending we could calculate a person's risk of injury/death per jump, would it be ethical to limit them to X number of jumps per year on the basis of their marginal propensity to get hurt? What should the threshold be? 0.1% per annum?My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nigel99 143 #68 November 8, 2007 QuoteFact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently. Kallend surely from a pure learning point of view it is obvious that the lower someones experience level is the higher their likelihood of making a mistake? The higher the performance level the more likely a serious injury will result. The same is true in lots of dangerous activities (motorcycling for example has far more deaths on >100hp sports bikes with riders <3 years experience). I don't think that the jump numbers question is the right focus as you can have many skydives and yet little or no experience. This is not recipricol though - you can't have experience and low jump numbers. Surely the right approach is a structured progression system geared towards canopy progression for those who want it. Finally the number of deaths under canopy are rising fairly rapidly I would say that this indicates a problem in the current attitude towards parachute flight.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 0 #69 November 8, 2007 QuoteSo do you think anyone at any level of skill or jump numbers should be able to jump whatever canopy they choose regardless of how small it is? Philosophically, sure, why not? We live in free countries, so it's our choice as adults to endanger ourselves as we see fit - as long as it doesn't endanger anyone else, or screw up some DZ's business, or pilot's license, etc. I mean, that's essentially what BASE jumpers do, right? They generally take higher risks than sport skydivers do, but they accept the responsibility for their own gear, finding their own launch-points and for their own safety. But most importantly - let's all pay attention now - THEY DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE TO BE THEIR ENABLERS. So yeah, just as Johnny has the right to base jump, so, too, does he have the right to skydive a napkin at only 25 jumps' experience. But if a DZO or pilot refuses to provide him with the venue, or the plane, tough shit, because that's their right, too. Let him find a different DZO and pilot who will cooperate with him. Or failing that, let him arrange his own bandit jump. Oh, he can't afford that? Reference "tough shit", above. In fact, I know some people who base jump but hardly ever skydive for exactly that reason: sport skydiving is dependent upon venues that impose rules, but base jumping is not. Fine; more power to 'em. If 25-jump Johnny tells me he's jumping a napkin, and that he understands and, as an adult, he consciously accepts the high level of risk that presents to him at that low experience level, and convinces me he's not endangering or screwing anyone else, then that's fine by me. But if he tries to tell me that he'll be just fine because he's a rare prodigy, and that experienced experts who give him warnings are just jealous pussies, then he can talk to the hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,400 #70 November 8, 2007 Honestly? Not knowing the jumper/seeing him jump: 60% chance nothing ever bad happens, or the injury is minor (broken/sprained ankle.) The jumper gets coaching, avoids other jumpers until he gets better under canopy, learns how to front riser, flat turn etc and does OK. 30% chance major injury - femur or equivalent. I actually hope this happens in many cases, because it can prevent: 10% chance of fatality. I used to hope such jumpers never got hurt, but I watched them get seriously injured/killed with depressing regularity. Then I noticed that the ones that broke their femurs tended to upsize, get coaching, become more conservative etc. I started hoping that they did receive such injuries (if they didn't listen to advice of course) because that seemed to be the best lesson they could learn, and it seems like one that saves lives. Femurs heal well (usually) and the jumper can return to jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #71 November 8, 2007 QuoteKallend surely from a pure learning point of view it is obvious that the lower someones experience level is the higher their likelihood of making a mistake? The higher the performance level the more likely a serious injury will result. The same is true in lots of dangerous activities (motorcycling for example has far more deaths on >100hp sports bikes with riders <3 years experience). New riders hit a danger zone after the first 6-12 months when they start to get comfortable on the motorcycle. So you can't presume a straight progression for skydiving, or that they become less prone to error over time. It may well be that the longer they get from their last form of training, the more likely they are to make a mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ether 0 #72 November 8, 2007 QuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. "There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)" (Wendy W's sig)Looking for newbie rig, all components... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnskydiver688 0 #73 November 8, 2007 This sport is naturally defensive. Letting someone do what they want in this sport as long as it doesn't endanger other people can't work in this sport. Exit separation is one. How do you know the guy behind you will give you enough time after exit? You could be deploying and look over and see this guy open up right next to you. Your only option is to be a defensive skydiver. Free-flying. You are on a jump with a few other guys and one goes out of your field of vision. How do you know he is not on a collision course with the back of your head? It isn't enough to make sure you are doing everything you can to survive, but also knowing until you are back in the packing tent you have to be on the defensive. Some say let him be. Let him make his own decisions and envitably his own mistakes. He might decide to say screw you all and jump the canopy he wants, but then it is your responsibility to defend yourself from possible injury or death caused by his actions. Don't jump with him, hang up there and let him land first, land far away from him, talk to the DZO about the safety risk he poses to others and ask for him to be grounded. Making sure the jumper is getting "proper" advice is the front line of being defensive, but advice is exactly that, advice. It isn't orders. Be a defensive skydiver.Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Reginald 0 #74 November 8, 2007 QuotePeople wonder why I get defensive when there's no productive/helpful info being given. There are users posting on here that know me in person and they know that I'm the first person to ask for advice, opinions, what should I do, when, how many etc... Chris, The basic lesson demonstrated in these threads relates to your decision making process. That process is what caused you to buy an inappropriate canopy. I won’t comment on the canopy, because that has been beaten to death. However, I’d like to share with you my views on your decision making process. I don’t expect you to change anytime soon but maybe you will reflect on it in future years and make better decisions. I also post it because it is not an uncommon problem in the sport. I can point to several people I personally know that have similar flaws in their decision making logic. Those flaws caused them to make poor decisions that seriously injured them radically changing the rest of their life, for the worse. Chris, you have been given a vast amount of excellent information form some of the most knowledgeable people in the sport in these threads and you refuse to recognize it. Why? You are an “opinion shopper.” You make up your mind on a decision prior to seeking input. You then seek advice but when that advice doesn’t agree with your predetermined position you lash out at people and or simply disregard their input. You avoid information that refutes your position and seek to discredit it. You selectively find support for your decision and over emphasize its importance. You ask leading questions designed to elicit a response in support of your position, not fair and balanced questions designed to provide unbiased responses. Most likely you only ask people that you think will tell you what you want to hear. Only when people agree with you do you consider it, “constructive”. Unfortunately, this is actually the normal human decision making process. This is also the nature of politics, legal debates, etc. A proper decision making process to come to the most optimal decision involves seeking out information pro and con on a topic and fairly weighing the information. It is actually a difficult art to learn, it is not engrained in human nature. The problem with “opinion shopping” in the sport of skydiving is that it puts us and others an increased risk of injury or death. In most aspects of our life it does not. Not to belabor the point but a friend of mine had a similar decision making process. He wanted to downsize his canopy and swoop so he sought out advice from people. He only sought advice from some of the most irresponsible swoopers he knew. He heard exactly what he wanted to hear. He would have done well to seek the opinions of others too. It ended badly for him (just crippled not killed) and to this day he thinks he went about it the right way, by seeking advice before the downsized. Sigh… I wish you well and hope that you at least give some thought to what I've said."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hackish 8 #75 November 9, 2007 To a point with only 42 jumps on a sabre 2 170 I should also be a dead person in training. For me I can accept that the 170 is an aggressive choice. It is a reasonable challenge and everyone who has seen and jumped with me has said that I'll be ok on this canopy. I choose to go with the personal advice of the 50,000 combined jumps that such advice has come from. Both Chris and I may be somewhat natural under a canopy but I don't believe for a second that I'm some sort of prodigy. Just an attentive enough and intelligent enough person to take on a challenge and enjoy myself in the sport. Let's face it, this sport is about enjoying yourself and sometimes people with higher jump numbers hold their nose up at those who are downsizing faster than they did. Hell with a few months in the sport and less than 50 jumps there is no way I know anything about skydiving, canopies, rigs or rigging. Or could I? -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 3 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
nathaniel 0 #67 November 8, 2007 I think there'd be a real challenge if we were to have statistics about the risk in skydiving. We might find, for instance, that the risk of serious injury or death goes up by a factor of 5 on a per jump basis for someone over the USPA's WL advisory chart. But that might mean on an annual basis that someone with more experience yet who makes five times as many jumps in a year (someone with only 100 jumps can't have made more than 100 in a year) may be at greater overall risk of serious injury / death, even if they are at a much lower risk on each jump. Pretending we could calculate a person's risk of injury/death per jump, would it be ethical to limit them to X number of jumps per year on the basis of their marginal propensity to get hurt? What should the threshold be? 0.1% per annum?My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #68 November 8, 2007 QuoteFact is, there are no actual data to show that early downsizing leads to shorter life expectancy than that of any other skydiver jumping a highly loaded canopy. Having thousands of jumps does not guarantee a successful outcome to a swoop, as we all have seen recently. Kallend surely from a pure learning point of view it is obvious that the lower someones experience level is the higher their likelihood of making a mistake? The higher the performance level the more likely a serious injury will result. The same is true in lots of dangerous activities (motorcycling for example has far more deaths on >100hp sports bikes with riders <3 years experience). I don't think that the jump numbers question is the right focus as you can have many skydives and yet little or no experience. This is not recipricol though - you can't have experience and low jump numbers. Surely the right approach is a structured progression system geared towards canopy progression for those who want it. Finally the number of deaths under canopy are rising fairly rapidly I would say that this indicates a problem in the current attitude towards parachute flight.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #69 November 8, 2007 QuoteSo do you think anyone at any level of skill or jump numbers should be able to jump whatever canopy they choose regardless of how small it is? Philosophically, sure, why not? We live in free countries, so it's our choice as adults to endanger ourselves as we see fit - as long as it doesn't endanger anyone else, or screw up some DZ's business, or pilot's license, etc. I mean, that's essentially what BASE jumpers do, right? They generally take higher risks than sport skydivers do, but they accept the responsibility for their own gear, finding their own launch-points and for their own safety. But most importantly - let's all pay attention now - THEY DON'T ASK ANYONE ELSE TO BE THEIR ENABLERS. So yeah, just as Johnny has the right to base jump, so, too, does he have the right to skydive a napkin at only 25 jumps' experience. But if a DZO or pilot refuses to provide him with the venue, or the plane, tough shit, because that's their right, too. Let him find a different DZO and pilot who will cooperate with him. Or failing that, let him arrange his own bandit jump. Oh, he can't afford that? Reference "tough shit", above. In fact, I know some people who base jump but hardly ever skydive for exactly that reason: sport skydiving is dependent upon venues that impose rules, but base jumping is not. Fine; more power to 'em. If 25-jump Johnny tells me he's jumping a napkin, and that he understands and, as an adult, he consciously accepts the high level of risk that presents to him at that low experience level, and convinces me he's not endangering or screwing anyone else, then that's fine by me. But if he tries to tell me that he'll be just fine because he's a rare prodigy, and that experienced experts who give him warnings are just jealous pussies, then he can talk to the hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #70 November 8, 2007 Honestly? Not knowing the jumper/seeing him jump: 60% chance nothing ever bad happens, or the injury is minor (broken/sprained ankle.) The jumper gets coaching, avoids other jumpers until he gets better under canopy, learns how to front riser, flat turn etc and does OK. 30% chance major injury - femur or equivalent. I actually hope this happens in many cases, because it can prevent: 10% chance of fatality. I used to hope such jumpers never got hurt, but I watched them get seriously injured/killed with depressing regularity. Then I noticed that the ones that broke their femurs tended to upsize, get coaching, become more conservative etc. I started hoping that they did receive such injuries (if they didn't listen to advice of course) because that seemed to be the best lesson they could learn, and it seems like one that saves lives. Femurs heal well (usually) and the jumper can return to jumping. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #71 November 8, 2007 QuoteKallend surely from a pure learning point of view it is obvious that the lower someones experience level is the higher their likelihood of making a mistake? The higher the performance level the more likely a serious injury will result. The same is true in lots of dangerous activities (motorcycling for example has far more deaths on >100hp sports bikes with riders <3 years experience). New riders hit a danger zone after the first 6-12 months when they start to get comfortable on the motorcycle. So you can't presume a straight progression for skydiving, or that they become less prone to error over time. It may well be that the longer they get from their last form of training, the more likely they are to make a mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ether 0 #72 November 8, 2007 QuoteMy guess is that most early downsizers are successful and do not appear in the accident reports. "There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)" (Wendy W's sig)Looking for newbie rig, all components... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnskydiver688 0 #73 November 8, 2007 This sport is naturally defensive. Letting someone do what they want in this sport as long as it doesn't endanger other people can't work in this sport. Exit separation is one. How do you know the guy behind you will give you enough time after exit? You could be deploying and look over and see this guy open up right next to you. Your only option is to be a defensive skydiver. Free-flying. You are on a jump with a few other guys and one goes out of your field of vision. How do you know he is not on a collision course with the back of your head? It isn't enough to make sure you are doing everything you can to survive, but also knowing until you are back in the packing tent you have to be on the defensive. Some say let him be. Let him make his own decisions and envitably his own mistakes. He might decide to say screw you all and jump the canopy he wants, but then it is your responsibility to defend yourself from possible injury or death caused by his actions. Don't jump with him, hang up there and let him land first, land far away from him, talk to the DZO about the safety risk he poses to others and ask for him to be grounded. Making sure the jumper is getting "proper" advice is the front line of being defensive, but advice is exactly that, advice. It isn't orders. Be a defensive skydiver.Sky Canyon Wingsuiters Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #74 November 8, 2007 QuotePeople wonder why I get defensive when there's no productive/helpful info being given. There are users posting on here that know me in person and they know that I'm the first person to ask for advice, opinions, what should I do, when, how many etc... Chris, The basic lesson demonstrated in these threads relates to your decision making process. That process is what caused you to buy an inappropriate canopy. I won’t comment on the canopy, because that has been beaten to death. However, I’d like to share with you my views on your decision making process. I don’t expect you to change anytime soon but maybe you will reflect on it in future years and make better decisions. I also post it because it is not an uncommon problem in the sport. I can point to several people I personally know that have similar flaws in their decision making logic. Those flaws caused them to make poor decisions that seriously injured them radically changing the rest of their life, for the worse. Chris, you have been given a vast amount of excellent information form some of the most knowledgeable people in the sport in these threads and you refuse to recognize it. Why? You are an “opinion shopper.” You make up your mind on a decision prior to seeking input. You then seek advice but when that advice doesn’t agree with your predetermined position you lash out at people and or simply disregard their input. You avoid information that refutes your position and seek to discredit it. You selectively find support for your decision and over emphasize its importance. You ask leading questions designed to elicit a response in support of your position, not fair and balanced questions designed to provide unbiased responses. Most likely you only ask people that you think will tell you what you want to hear. Only when people agree with you do you consider it, “constructive”. Unfortunately, this is actually the normal human decision making process. This is also the nature of politics, legal debates, etc. A proper decision making process to come to the most optimal decision involves seeking out information pro and con on a topic and fairly weighing the information. It is actually a difficult art to learn, it is not engrained in human nature. The problem with “opinion shopping” in the sport of skydiving is that it puts us and others an increased risk of injury or death. In most aspects of our life it does not. Not to belabor the point but a friend of mine had a similar decision making process. He wanted to downsize his canopy and swoop so he sought out advice from people. He only sought advice from some of the most irresponsible swoopers he knew. He heard exactly what he wanted to hear. He would have done well to seek the opinions of others too. It ended badly for him (just crippled not killed) and to this day he thinks he went about it the right way, by seeking advice before the downsized. Sigh… I wish you well and hope that you at least give some thought to what I've said."We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hackish 8 #75 November 9, 2007 To a point with only 42 jumps on a sabre 2 170 I should also be a dead person in training. For me I can accept that the 170 is an aggressive choice. It is a reasonable challenge and everyone who has seen and jumped with me has said that I'll be ok on this canopy. I choose to go with the personal advice of the 50,000 combined jumps that such advice has come from. Both Chris and I may be somewhat natural under a canopy but I don't believe for a second that I'm some sort of prodigy. Just an attentive enough and intelligent enough person to take on a challenge and enjoy myself in the sport. Let's face it, this sport is about enjoying yourself and sometimes people with higher jump numbers hold their nose up at those who are downsizing faster than they did. Hell with a few months in the sport and less than 50 jumps there is no way I know anything about skydiving, canopies, rigs or rigging. Or could I? -Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
