Air France Flight 447 - finally solved.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

>How can one become a pilot of such an airplane and not know what a stall is and how
>to fix it?

Because it's a plane that, normally, cannot stall. When you spend much of your career flying an aircraft that can't stall, you're going to tend to lose your ability to predict, detect and deal with a stall.

Absolutely. When you believe that the Titanic is unsinkable, you might be willing to go a little more quickly into iceberg infested waters.

There have been some comments by many who are learned in flying that part of the problem with modern commercial pilots is that they actually operate the controls for about 90 seconds per flight. Other than that, autopilot does it all. So in a very real sense, modern technology is making it more difficult for commercial pilots to maintain even simple skills.

One thing I note: the report indicated that Bonin was anxious and spooked the whole time - even before they lost the pitot tube reading. So he was pretty anxious from the outset. Which, to me, is just another piece of the daisy chain.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

When I was flying on a regular basis I hand flew from take off to level off and generally hand flew most of the desent and all of the approach and landing. It is easy to become a system monitor and have your head up your ass when you need it most.

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

So, the SR22 is a side stick, but is not fly by wire - it is hooked up by cables, etc. to the control surfaces? That is a crappy analogy to the point of how the A330 flight deck works (Billvon's crappy analogy). So to put it more precisely, Fly by wire airliners are not so well served by side stick controllers.

It's only a crappy analogy if you assume there is no possible way to design feedback and coupling into a FBW sidestick arrangement.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[sacex250 0]

Quote

It's only a crappy analogy if you assume there is no possible way to design feedback and coupling into a FBW sidestick arrangement.

In order to maximize control feel and consistency during their airshow performances the US Navy Blue Angels would set their pitch trim to full nose down so that they had to maintain back pressure on the control stick which eliminated having to adjust pitch trim as the aircraft speed changed.

When the Blues switched to the F-18 they had a problem, the F-18 is FBW which means that pitch trim is automatically accounted for by the flight control system. So, the solution? Each Blue Angel F-18 has a bungee cord attached to the stick pulling it forward.

It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I don't think Billvon's description was bad at all. He accurately described the fly by wire side stick system and it's drawbacks in that airplane.


He also made an accurate comparison of the overly-modernized aircraft the A340 and the SR20/22. Both airplanes give their pilots a false sense of security and illusion of automation.

Too true! :-)

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mutumbo 0]

Quote

Quote

It's only a crappy analogy if you assume there is no possible way to design feedback and coupling into a FBW sidestick arrangement.

In order to maximize control feel and consistency during their airshow performances the US Navy Blue Angels would set their pitch trim to full nose down so that they had to maintain back pressure on the control stick which eliminated having to adjust pitch trim as the aircraft speed changed.

When the Blues switched to the F-18 they had a problem, the F-18 is FBW which means that pitch trim is automatically accounted for by the flight control system. So, the solution? Each Blue Angel F-18 has a bungee cord attached to the stick pulling it forward.

Im sure the bungee costs about 10grand too

Thanatos340(on landing rounds)--
Landing procedure: Hand all the way up, Feet and Knees Together and PLF soon as you get bitch slapped by a planet.

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

Quote

So, the SR22 is a side stick, but is not fly by wire - it is hooked up by cables, etc. to the control surfaces? That is a crappy analogy to the point of how the A330 flight deck works (Billvon's crappy analogy). So to put it more precisely, Fly by wire airliners are not so well served by side stick controllers.

It's only a crappy analogy if you assume there is no possible way to design feedback and coupling into a FBW sidestick arrangement.

Now you're saying it is an appropriate analogy if you also add in the assumption of a hypothetical change to the design which is not at all available. That is surely a crappy analogy.

To others - I'm not understanding how the SR gives a false sense of security, is it just because it has a modern set of cockpit instruments/glass displays? Does it have a much more capable autopilot? I suppose it could be reasoned that small planes having that level of sophistication could make pilots confident, but pilots still don't have any fly by wire features or envelope protection, so they still must know they have to keep the airplane flying with their own input.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[PhreeZone 15]

The SR-22 has a nifty little handle the pilot can pull at any time when they are in trouble and they get a parachute. Its "saved" pilots that should have been dead due to their own issues multiple times including running out of gas and flying into conditions that they should not have ever attempted. Basically its being seen as a security blanket that pilots now feel that if everything goes wrong it does not matter since by pulling a handle they can walk away from about anything.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,400]

>So, the SR22 is a side stick, but is not fly by wire - it is hooked up by cables, etc. to
>the control surfaces?

Yes.

>That is a crappy analogy to the point of how the A330 flight deck works (Billvon's
>crappy analogy).

If the A330 worked like that (more accurately if it FELT like it worked like that) this incident would not have occurred. The problem was not that it was a yoke, or a side stick, or a central stick - the problem was the lack of feedback.

>So to put it more precisely, Fly by wire airliners are not so well served by side stick
>controllers.

Why?

[sundevil777 93]

Quote

>So to put it more precisely, Fly by wire airliners are not so well served by side stick
>controllers.

Why?

My post #36 outlines my reasons for this statement, but I think you're actually implying that the Airbus design could have feedback and coupling (I brought up additional issues besides those two).

The Airbus design doesn't lack feedback and coupling just by accident or oversight. My memory is that it lacks those features because there are design/engineering issues that prevent their implementation. I say this not just because Airbus did not do it, but also because Boeing did not to do it on the 777 and 787. During the design of the 777, the flight deck crew operations guys really wanted to have side sticks (for some reasons), and it wasn't the desire to "stick" with tradition that prevented it.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[nigel99 143]

Quote

Quote

>So to put it more precisely, Fly by wire airliners are not so well served by side stick
>controllers.

Why?

My post #36 outlines my reasons for this statement, but I think you're actually implying that the Airbus design could have feedback and coupling (I brought up additional issues besides those two).

The Airbus design doesn't lack feedback and coupling just by accident or oversight. My memory is that it lacks those features because there are design/engineering issues that prevent their implementation. I say this not just because Airbus did not do it, but also because Boeing did not to do it on the 777 and 787. During the design of the 777, the flight deck crew operations guys really wanted to have side sticks (for some reasons), and it wasn't the desire to "stick" with tradition that prevented it.

I realise that most (all?) design decisions involve trade offs. It is pretty shocking that Airbus decided to not have feedback. Heck even relatively cheap MS Flight sim controllers have feedback. I also really don't like the control averaging that they have. It seems like a recipe for potential disaster.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

I know a couple of these Air-Bus drivers who actually do not enjoy flying a plane... It is just a job. They could as well be driving a train/truck/dumpster if it paid the same....

Those kind of guys worry me. I want a real pilot in the seat.

[piisfish 135]

Quote

Quote

I know a couple of these Air-Bus drivers who actually do not enjoy flying a plane... It is just a job. They could as well be driving a train/truck/dumpster if it paid the same....

Those kind of guys worry me. I want a real pilot in the seat.

me too ... on the other hand I know pilots who regularly get in big discussions/trouble because they prefer to fly manually whenever they can, and keep on asking the ATC for visual approaches

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[obelixtim 100]

I remember taking a look inside the Concorde, accompanied by my nephew who is a 737/A330 rated check captain.

His comment...."most young pilots couldn't fly this thing, it doesn't have any television screens".

I think he was only half joking.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[piisfish 135]

Quote

I remember taking a look inside the Concorde, accompanied by my nephew who is a 737/A330 rated check captain.

His comment...."most young pilots couldn't fly this thing, it doesn't have any television screens".

I think he was only half joking.....

I think he wasn't joking at all

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[theonlyski 3]

Quote

Quote

I remember taking a look inside the Concorde, accompanied by my nephew who is a 737/A330 rated check captain.

His comment...."most young pilots couldn't fly this thing, it doesn't have any television screens".

I think he was only half joking.....

I think he wasn't joking at all

I'm quite glad that I chose to fly a good old 172 for my flight training... I just hate the glass in the SR-20. It's also surprisingly easy to stall that damn thing unintentionally.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

I don't see how the SR would give a pilot a false sense of security and illusion of automation. Perhaps you're thinking it is fly by wire. I don't think it is.

False sense of security, absolutely. Maybe not an especially obvious illusion of automation. But in reality it is only a normal airplane with a very modernized avionics system. It is susceptible to all the same real world dangers of navigation and aerodynamics that any other airplane is. This includes flying into a mountain goat, over-speeding and stall/spinning, all of which seem to occur a disproportional amount of Cirrus pilots.


http://www.aopa.org/asf/asfarticles/2004/sp0402.html

http://news.injuryboard.com/cirrus-fatalities-have-critics-questioning-safety.aspx?googleid=262482

The SR22 is becoming the successor to the Bonanza as the "doctor killer" in GA. I'm sticking with my Mooney.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Calvin19 0]

Quote

The Airbus design doesn't lack feedback and coupling just by accident or oversight. My memory is that it lacks those features because there are design/engineering issues that prevent their implementation.

I would like to know what those issues are. I am not questioning your memory, I just want to know why it is not possible to add that simple of an actuator and tie it in with the FBW.

[dks13827 2]

Quote

Just goes to show that no matter how smart or "Fail Safe" they make planes us humans will always find a way to fuck it up. I almost wish it was something mechanical. That I can fix but we will never completely remove the human factor. very sad.

Most jumpers BY FAR prefer reading an accident report where the jumper just plain screwed up... not an equipment failure.

[wildcard451 0]

Quote

Quote

Just goes to show that no matter how smart or "Fail Safe" they make planes us humans will always find a way to fuck it up. I almost wish it was something mechanical. That I can fix but we will never completely remove the human factor. very sad.

Most jumpers BY FAR prefer reading an accident report where the jumper just plain screwed up... not an equipment failure.

Of course they do. Because it happened to "that guy" and not "me", and "I" would never be stupid enough to make that mistake.

[billvon 2,400]

>The Airbus design doesn't lack feedback and coupling just by accident or oversight. My
>memory is that it lacks those features because there are design/engineering issues
>that prevent their implementation.

While I am sure it was cheaper and easier to avoid implementing force feedback, there are no design/engineering issues that prevent such features from being installed in aircraft. Much smaller aircraft with much smaller cockpits (i.e. the F35B) use such systems. Heck, you can get a Microsoft game joystick with force feedback for $99.

If anything it was a cost tradeoff. A reliable force feedback system is expensive.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Quote

>The Airbus design doesn't lack feedback and coupling just by accident or oversight. My
>memory is that it lacks those features because there are design/engineering issues
>that prevent their implementation.

While I am sure it was cheaper and easier to avoid implementing force feedback, there are no design/engineering issues that prevent such features from being installed in aircraft. Much smaller aircraft with much smaller cockpits (i.e. the F35B) use such systems. Heck, you can get a Microsoft game joystick with force feedback for $99.

If anything it was a cost tradeoff. A reliable force feedback system is expensive.

Maybe they have an extra couple USB ports they can just plug a couple of those into.

[dks13827 2]

Remember the early Airbus crash where the plane just descended into the trees during an airshow flyby ? The computer was confused, the pilots were confused, the whole thing stunk ! Early version of the system, I think.
I never agree with the thinking that prohibits the pilot from pushing an override button and taking control of the damn airplane.

[JohnMitchell 14]

Quote

The SR22 is becoming the successor to the Bonanza as the "doctor killer" in GA. I'm sticking with my Mooney.

Just read a study that said the SR22, even with the chute, is middle of the road in accident and fatality rates. The Mooney is a little worse, but I say no fault of either machine. It's all in the pilot's judgement.

[dks13827 2]

Over the decades I have read so many airline crash reports...... many are the same thing, over and over, blatant pilot error ( due to odd circumstances I will admit ).