wildcard451 0 #1 December 19, 2011 They found the flight recorders. Very very sad. http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/aviation/crashes/what-really-happened-aboard-air-france-447-6611877?src=soc_fcbk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mx757 4 #2 December 19, 2011 that was couple of months ago.. old news now.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #3 December 19, 2011 whooooops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #4 December 19, 2011 Wow. Colgan 3407 all over again. And yet another case of "if the pilots had just not touched anything - they would have been OK." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #5 December 19, 2011 As a pilot this is disturbing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #6 December 19, 2011 Just goes to show that no matter how smart or "Fail Safe" they make planes us humans will always find a way to fuck it up. I almost wish it was something mechanical. That I can fix but we will never completely remove the human factor. very sad.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #7 December 19, 2011 Quote As a pilot this is disturbing. Ain't that the f-n truth. Decending, with a stall alarm going off, just hold the stick back as long as you can... "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hellis 0 #8 December 19, 2011 How can one become a pilot of such an airplane and not know what a stall is and how to fix it? When I read this I understan why some are afraid of flying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #9 December 19, 2011 QuoteHow can one become a pilot of such an airplane and not know what a stall is and how to fix it? When I read this I understan why some are afraid of flying. They were probably under the assumption that the higher altitude would get them out of the storm and let them de-ice the pitot, and that the fly by wire computer wouldn't let them do anything unsafe."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #10 December 19, 2011 QuoteThey were probably under the assumption that the higher altitude would get them out of the storm and let them de-ice the pitot, and that the fly by wire computer wouldn't let them do anything unsafe. Like i said the Human factor. I still havent learned why the pitot iced up to begin with. Those things are hot as hell. I still have a scar on my hand when I accidently touched one and burned the hell out of my hand. But humans sometimes do weird things even though the machine is telling them there is a problem. The Colgan flight in Buffalo is a great example. The thing was telling them they were in a stall but the Captain was still fighting the stick pusher.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #11 December 19, 2011 QuoteLike i said the Human factor. I still havent learned why the pitot iced up to begin with. Those things are hot as hell. I still have a scar on my hand when I accidently touched one and burned the hell out of my hand. But humans sometimes do weird things even though the machine is telling them there is a problem. The Colgan flight in Buffalo is a great example. The thing was telling them they were in a stall but the Captain was still fighting the stick pusher. Is there a manual pitot heat? (not used to big birds, just little cessnas) Could've been a failure in it anyways, but still, something inherently wrong with holding full back and descending, without figuring out WHY."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wayneflorida 0 #12 December 19, 2011 Watch out for Alternate Law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #13 December 19, 2011 I can't view this at work...IT dorks have killed access to that web page.....don't ask! But the guys did WHAT! They pulled up as the aircraft was sinking in? Oh real smart....WTF! Maybe we need to pay these guys more and hire more of them? Maybe these guys were just exhausted? I know their job isn't easy and they work very long hours and their pay....OMG I can't believe how little they pay these guys! That's just not right!Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #14 December 19, 2011 QuoteHow can one become a pilot of such an airplane and not know what a stall is and how to fix it? When I read this I understan why some are afraid of flying. The article states that under 'normal' flying conditions it is impossible to stall a modern plane. What this mean't is that the pilots had ZERO experience of dealing with a stall. I guess it is similar to the situation we have in skydiving. We end up depending on electronic gizmo's and lose sight of the physical boundaries. Very sad to see that such a simple mistake killed so many people. On the positive side at least it is unlikely to happen again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #15 December 19, 2011 is impossible to stall a modern plane. Ah....how so? Slow down too much put the nose too high and watch!Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #16 December 19, 2011 Shah, please quit speaking. It is painful to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #17 December 19, 2011 QuoteQuoteHow can one become a pilot of such an airplane and not know what a stall is and how to fix it? When I read this I understan why some are afraid of flying. They were probably under the assumption that the higher altitude would get them out of the storm and let them de-ice the pitot, and that the fly by wire computer wouldn't let them do anything unsafe. Why didn't he deploy the CAPS? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #18 December 19, 2011 Quote Why didn't he deploy the CAPS? It wasn't a Cirrus"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #19 December 19, 2011 QuoteShah, please quit speaking. It is painful to read. Physcs is physics right? So what do they mean "you can't stall a modern aircraft!" WTF! If you say it can't be done....you know sure well someone will find out how!Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #20 December 19, 2011 >So what do they mean "you can't stall a modern aircraft!" You can't stall that sort of Airbus when all its systems are working normally. It won't let you. Which means that throttles forward stick back will almost always result in a climb. What got them here was that the computer had lost some of its inputs, so it switched to an alternative set of control laws that DID allow a stall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #21 December 19, 2011 >How can one become a pilot of such an airplane and not know what a stall is and how >to fix it? Because it's a plane that, normally, cannot stall. When you spend much of your career flying an aircraft that can't stall, you're going to tend to lose your ability to predict, detect and deal with a stall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #22 December 19, 2011 Quote The article states that under 'normal' flying conditions it is impossible to stall a modern plane. What this mean't is that the pilots had ZERO experience of dealing with a stall. Actually, that wasn't what the article said, or what the situation is. A fly-by-wire airplane isn't actually flown by the pilot, it's flown by computers that are more like anal-retentive super-sensitive autopilots. The pilot simply puts an input into the controls and it's up to the computers to figure out how to make what the pilot wants to have happen happen. The computers can even override the pilot, if the pilot tries to do something that the computers are programmed not to let him do. You can't barrel roll an Airbus, for example; it won't let him overbank the airplane. Under "normal law" the computers will keep the airplane in its flight envelope no matter what the pilot does with the controls. No matter how hard the pilot pulls back on the stick, no matter how slow he tries to fly, the computers will simply override the pilot and keep the nose where it needs to be to maintain a safe AOA. There have already been several incidents in Airbus airliners where the fly-by-wire system's limits have become the problem. There was the crash in 1988 of an A320 during a low pass at an airshow in France in which the pilot slowed the plane down so that it was flying at its maximum AOA allowed by the fly-by-wire system which prevented the pilot from having any additional control authority with which to climb to avoid a forest of trees at the end of the runway. Once the airplane is at its maximum AOA, whether aerodynamically or artificially through a FBW system the result is the same; the only way the airplane can reduce its AOA is to either accelerate or descend, neither of which were available to the pilot during the low pass while the airplane simply maintained its maximum AOA as it flew into the trees at the end of the runway. Three passengers died. Even the great Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger got caught-out by the FBW system in his A319 during the emergency landing on the Hudson River. Sullenberger had allowed the Airbus to slow down too much during the approach so that when he tried to flare the FBW system wouldn't let him pull up and the airplane hit the water harder than it should have causing more severe structural damage to the fuselage of the plane. Luckily that one turned out okay. In the AF447 crash, the FBW system lost its normal functioning ability because of supercooled water freezing up the pitot tubes causing the loss of airspeed information which the FBW system needs to "think" about how to fly the airplane. Computers can't fly by the seat of their pants, they need numbers and airspeed is one of them. When the airspeed was lost the computers gave absolute control of the plane back to the pilots. In "Alternate Law", the plane pretty much stops acting like a FBW aircraft and lets the pilots fly the airplane like it's a normal airplane in which the pilots have more direct control over the control surfaces without computer intervention, so that the pilots become the brains of the system and the computers stop second guessing the pilots. The major factor here is that simply the wrong pilot was flying the airplane. When things start to go bad the most experienced pilot should have the flight controls and have them exclusively. There's even a button on the Captain's sidestick controller that "locks out" the co-pilot's sidestick so that there can't be the dreaded situation where two pilots are flying the airplane at the same time which is usually worse than no one flying the plane! I wouldn't bet on it never happening again, pilots have a way of ignoring the most obvious of warnings. What's that beeping noise?It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rookie120 0 #23 December 19, 2011 QuoteIs there a manual pitot heat? (not used to big birds, just little cessnas) I cannot say for sure about the A330 cause I'm not up to speed on that one but the 757, 67, and triple are all auto. It operates with ice detectors and the WOW (Weight on Wheels) or squat switch. The 737 actually has a switch to manually turn it on. But for how much automation the A330 had in it I assume it is set up somewhat close to the triple. It is operating normally but it it fails you should get a "Master Caution" light.If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Calvin19 0 #24 December 19, 2011 QuoteQuote Why didn't he deploy the CAPS? It wasn't a Cirrus "But the crash raises the disturbing possibility that aviation may well long be plagued by a subtler menace, one that ironically springs from the never-ending quest to make flying safer. " Sound familiar? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shah269 0 #25 December 19, 2011 Quote >So what do they mean "you can't stall a modern aircraft!" You can't stall that sort of Airbus when all its systems are working normally. It won't let you. Which means that throttles forward stick back will almost always result in a climb. What got them here was that the computer had lost some of its inputs, so it switched to an alternative set of control laws that DID allow a stall. billvon Thank you so much, I can't read the article. Again thank you and .... how sad? Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay. The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
