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GoPros right off of student status?
wolfriverjoe replied to Tetrahedron's topic in Safety and Training
I can't decide if you actually believe the garbage you are posting or if you are a troll (FWIW, trolling is the posting of materiel deliberately intended to provoke a response). You want statistics? There aren't any. Except for fatalities, there simply aren't any statistics available. Injuries? AAD fires? Reserve rides? Two outs? No stats available. Even basic stuff like total jumps or even total active jumpers? (you'd need those to generate percentages). Not available anywhere. In your troll poll (hey, Billvon called it that), 'Twardo had a pretty good response. (paraphrased) Go do what you want, but don't be surprised if something bad happens. When it does, don't expect much sympathy. We've seen you too many times before. If you are foolish enough to think that mistakes due to distraction, even simple ones like forgetting goggles, are "non-events", then I suggest you rethink your participation in this sport. If you don't understand risk assessment and mitigation enough to realize that this stuff is "caused by the camera", I suggest you rethink your participation in this sport. The consequences of a minor mistake may be negligible. But they can easily stack up with other minor mistakes and end up a catastrophe. It's called the "chain of events." And if you don't realize that the presence of the camera was a rather large link in the chain of all of those anecdotes, then you really need to get a clue. Like 'Twardo (among others) said, we've seen you before. And all the other "youse" just like you. It's funny that the only people arguing against experience for cameras or small canopies or wingsuits are the ones who lack it. What's not funny is how many of them realize how wrong they were. Some have a close call that wakes them up. Others have to get hurt. Some have to get really hurt. A few only realize their mistake a second or two before it kills them. Ask Sangi. He was jumping a small canopy, but had all the arguments you are using. He had the courage to come back and admit that he was wrong. Unfortunately, his mistake cost him the use of his legs. Others weren't so lucky. Ask Ted Nelson about self appraisal of canopy skills (something you suggested). Ask Dan Kulpa about wingsuiting too soon. Ted had all the same arguments you do. Dan didn't come on here and argue about wingsuiting ahead of schedule, but he got turned down by one instructor, then went "shopping" until he found one who would teach him at around 100 jumps. "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo -
Yet another newbies-with-cameras thread
wolfriverjoe replied to -Joey-'s topic in Safety and Training
That's it. They're "special." They are such a gift to the world that there's no way that fate would take them. They might say something like "better to die young than to grow old" or "a life so much sweeter for it's brevity" or similar bullshit, but they don't really believe it. They simply can't conceive of their own death. It's not gonna happen. They're immortal, at least for now. Sangi freely admitted this after his accident. "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo -
Yeah yeah yeah and I need to go watch Sangi's bounce video... already seen it. I'm not planning on initiating any 270's at 200 feet and not pulling out even when the sight picture looks wrong so I think I'm okay there besides that has nothing to do with cameras. I still stand by my observation that camera-related issues are not a significant contributor to incidents. Just browsing the first couple pages of the incidents forum there are no camera-related issues at all. Just a bunch more no pulls / low cutaways / low turns. This camera thing is being way overblown and the hype is disproportionate to the actual number of incidents. Skydiving is serious business
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Dealing with the "Crossbrace at 300 jumps" crowd.
DocPop replied to DocPop's topic in Safety and Training
My own opinion to this is that, similar to BillVon's downsizing checklist, there should be restrictions on what canopy can be flown and what type of HP landing can be undertaken until proficiency has been reached on a certain goal. For example, 1. Fly a consistent landing pattern and achieve consistently accurate landings. Demonstrate flat turns and flare turns. 2. Land downwind and crosswind safely and practice HP turns and low-turn abortion >2,000' on at least 50 jumps (HnP's recommended). 3. Use double fronts (straight) for landings and consistently plane out at a safe (not too low or crazy high) altitude. 4. Perform HP landings with a turn of up to 90 degrees and consistently plane out at a safe (not too low or crazy high) altitude. 5..... 6..... etc,etc.... This is not an exhaustive list, obviously. It could then be used in the following way to deal with hotshot canopy dude: "You're staying with straight in landings on your 190 until you can do 1 & 2 with it. You can then downsize a maximum of one size to a 170. You stay on that canopy until you can demonstrate 1,2,& 3. ....." Every downsize starts the jumper back at #1 so it forces someone to go back and learn the canopy from double fronts. The highly skilled guys can move through this progress much faster than the slower learners. Obviously there will be some who try to beat the system but at least there IS a system and I believe that having a structured progression with specific performance goals gives guys like me, Sangi etc something to aim for. This is sadly lacking currently and people start to make up their own goals such as "I want to be doing 270s on a cross-braced wing by the end of the season". The other point is that someone needs to be in the landing area consistently to assess/enforce this system, but frankly that should be happening anyway. "The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA -
With 700 jumps total, and jumping a 170, how many jumps do you think it would take to get down below 100 sq ft safely? Let's also keep in mind that they don't make anything but HP canopies below 100 sq ft, so it's not like he was a big-boy on with a higher WL on a Spectre or somthing of that sort. With only 18 months to make the transition from a 170 to a sub-100 HP canopy, I'm not sure there is a 'safe' way to do that. You're either skipping sizes, or shorting yourself on time on each size. Either case is not the preferred method. That said, just to be clear, I don't have any ill-will towards to guy. I don't even know him personally. I do feel badly to hear that anyone is injured in anyway while jumping. The reason I'm posting the things I am is to illustrate that there are consequnces to the choices you make as a jumper. Those consequnces become very real very quickly, and sometimes they stay 'real' for a very long time. He's not the first 'big shot' we've had here was 'too cool for school', and he probably won't be the last. At least one of them I can remember is dead, and another is in a wheelchair for the rest of his life (Sangi, who had the balls to come back and tell his tale). Now we have another one who's fate is still to be determined. The point is that everyone else can see where it get's you, and maybe the guy in the '400 jumps on a Velo' thread will take notice, or maybe not. Hopefully the next guy in line will wise up and end the cycle before it comes around again and takes out another 'big shot' jumper.
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I started to respond by posting all kinds of links here like this one.... [url]http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html Though at 126 jumps I'm sure you've learned a lot and have spoke with your jump masters / wise ones at your dz and have already received some kind of input? In addition, this website is FULL of information regarding downsizing, too fast, and the real life results of what happens if you push past your abilities (search Sangi)... I'm looking forward to flying a faster canopy as well and enjoy that portion just as much. However, as you'll quickly learn, well, look around, the answers are there. Jack
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Yep. Sangi used to say the exact same thing. Have you thought that you may well end up paralyzed and in a wheelchair for the rest of your life? "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo
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Sure~ Got into it because I lost a bet... Stuck around for 38 years because of all the easy money & hot chicks! ~you're looking for the 'adventure' 'challenge' 'excitement' answer...all of that is available in this sport. Wanna experience those things for a LONG time? Slow the fuck down, approach it as a long-term investment in your happiness. NOBODY is as good as they think they are, it's only logical to make a mature decision and step it down a notch when the majority of your peers give warnings and express concern. Failure to do so is nothing new, I've seen that type of mentality come and go often during my involvement with the sport. Usually when they 'go' it's on a stretcher...sometimes the face is covered, sometimes not. One thing I HAVE noticed over the years though - usually when someone forewarned breaks themselves they mire in the woe is me self-pity. Gotta kind of hand it to Sangi for not doing that, he acknowledges his errors and seeks to hold himself up as an example with hopes of preventing others from making the same mistakes. I can't imagine the courage that must take...ya wanna talk about facing a challenge? Look at that kid! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
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Then why are you short-cutting your canopy progression? You're not putting in the work, you're tyring to skip right to the gravy. See the 'hooked it low' thread in the swooping forum to understand the scope of the mistakes you're making. A guy 2x or 3x your jump numbers almost did himself in on a JVX 99 because he 'misjudged' a turn from 800ft. 800ft fucking feet and he could tell he was low until the last second, and narrowly missed damaging himself badly. I can only guess he had 500/600 swoops min, and he lacked the basic judgement and familiarity with the sight picture to see his problem any sooner than the last second. He dug a couple chunks of meat from his leg and I think meesed up his knee. What that means is that if he 1/2 second slower on his reaction, he would have broken both of his legs. One full second and he would have broken his pelivs, suffered internal injuries, and probably done something to his spinal cord. Anything more than one second longer, and he would have been a stain on the asphalt. What you 'think' about your skills is of no consequence. The assertion here is that you don't know enough to be doing what you're doing, so if you're going on what you think you 'know', you're already two steps behind the curve. You're not even close or anywhere near 'borderline' for doing what you're doing. Making the decision to fly this canopy, in that way that you are, with the experience that you have falls directly under the heading of gross negligence. In a bittersweet turn of events, we have the Sangi story to use as a prime example. Look at his story, and his posts, see the things he was told and the things he replied, and then look at him now. To his credit, and due to his HUGE balls, he's back here and willing to admit to his mistakes and try to presuade others not to do likewise. On top of that, you have a guy (Vader) who's posting out of genuine and personal concern for you, and said very kind and acring things about you and the friendship you share, and all you want to do is shit all over that. My brief summary of the situation - lose/lose.
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hehe true that. No matter how good you think you are, especially if you think that "I managed to live through Katana, so why can't I do the same with a Velo", an xbrace at 400 jumps is just not logical, it really isn't. Onya boy! Swooping / canopy piloting isn't like freeflying for example, where you can have a few skydives, but hours in the tunnel and still be awesome and safe in the sky. Please, please, please, don't do what I did, because at this time in your career, the risk to reward ratio is not in your favor and is totally not worth it.. Sure you can "fly and land" your Velo, but for how long until something happens that you can't handle, because you were too confident and too proud to admit that you're simply not ready no matter what you say.. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4192725;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF578oSkrKk I did have a lot of fun with what I did, but in the end, it wasn't worth losing my legs over it since I won't be able to have that fun anymore.. Do you want to be in my shoes? Worst of all, don't ever think that that won't happen to you, that's exactly what I did. Sangi 2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.
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Great post, much respect Sangi...
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hehe true that. No matter how good you think you are, especially if you think that "I managed to live through Katana, so why can't I do the same with a Velo", an xbrace at 400 jumps is just not logical, it really isn't. Swooping / canopy piloting isn't like freeflying for example, where you can have a few skydives, but hours in the tunnel and still be awesome and safe in the sky. Please, please, please, don't do what I did, because at this time in your career, the risk to reward ratio is not in your favor and is totally not worth it.. Sure you can "fly and land" your Velo, but for how long until something happens that you can't handle, because you were too confident and too proud to admit that you're simply not ready no matter what you say.. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4192725;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF578oSkrKk I did have a lot of fun with what I did, but in the end, it wasn't worth losing my legs over it since I won't be able to have that fun anymore.. Do you want to be in my shoes? Worst of all, don't ever think that that won't happen to you, that's exactly what I did. Sangi
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Sangi should be able to give you some valuable swooping tips 2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.
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Downsizing - no patronizing please
Freeflaw replied to Freeflaw's topic in Swooping and Canopy Control
I mostly hang in deep brakes and let everyone land before me whenever possible. Flat turns and toggle hook to flare carves are a lot of fun and if you intend to touch your fronts this better be second nature - no? I don't understand why this always turns into a discussion about canopy control in general. The Storm 120 is a steep trimmed 7 cell. It's not exactly an efficient wing. Yes people load Storms up to 2.0 (have you seen one land?). According to PD I am loading the canopy fairly high. Plus: Where did my attitude indicate passive piloting anyways? I am just curious as to what people think would be a nice wing to transition to. Frankly I can make these decisions on my own. I like to test my ideas against other people though. I don't think this indicates lack of experience...it simply shows that I take other viewpoints into consideration when making my decisions. To dave and dutton: I learn/learned a lot on these forums. It does however irk me that questions often do not get answered. Some of you use these forums to vent your general frustrations with the sport in any thread that allows you to do so. I understand this frustration but bitching about it on DZ.com doesn't solve anything. Get proactive with the USPA if you so desire. It would be a lot more useful if questions got answered rather than any thread dedicated to swooping and technique first turning into a bitchfest about the problem we have with people hooking themselves in and anyone asking this question getting pigeonholed into the category of DGIT. You are not stopping the next Sangi...that dude already has his mind made up. Out of 4 of my friends that downsized too quickly 2 knocked themselves out, one broke his back and pelvis, the other was out for 3 months (luckily only bruised). I pleaded and pleaded and they were my friends. Your heroic little internet antics however do nothing beyond turning a potentially useful platform for the exchange of ideas into a pathetic spectacle. A lot of people hate these forums because it is a fucking circle jerk. If there was less bullshit and bickering and more dissemination of information, I bet a lot of people would not view these forums in this light. To everyone else: Thanks for your input -
Hello all! I want to say hi and thanks for this resource you've provided here. I've been reading it on a nearly daily basis for the last few months in preparation for getting back into skydiving, and I've learned a lot from you, which I believe is helping me to approach this with the correct attitude. I've learned: 1. that I don't have mad skillz. 2. that I'll never be so good that skydiving can't kill me. 3. who Sangi is. 4. what Booth's Law, the Germain chart and the Bill Von checklist are. 5. boobies. I've also attached a quote from Bill Booth in my signature that I want to think about every time I jump. So more about me. I got my A licence on a static line course at a Cessna DZ from the Australian Parachute Federation nearly 10 years ago, but haven't jumped since. I have 1 tandem, 7 static line and 12 solo freefall jumps. My girlfriend did her first tandem a few months ago. She has read The Skydiver's Handbook by Poynter twice since then. Anyway, after getting out from under a mountain of student debts, I'm finally at the point in my life when I can get back into skydiving. The money is in place, the flights and hotel are booked, this is really it! We'll be at Elsinore from March 15th-April 2nd. I'm doing a recurrency program and my gf will be doing her A-licence program. I'm interested in reaching out to any of you who jump at Elsinore and don't mind being seen with a couple of rookies. It would be great to know some people there when I arrive, especially if you might be another student in training or even my instructor. I'm also interested in hearing from you if you're an Elsinore female involved in the Sisters in Skydiving program, which I'd like to get my gf hooked up with. Blue skies and soft landings! "So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth
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Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga
EnricoPalazzo replied to SEREJumper's topic in Safety and Training
Yes, it's the OP video, with Sangi's comment and the OP's reply to it. -
Since no one else has linked it, here's some reading material with posts that are eerily similar to yours. Look for the posts specifically made by Sangi and what everyone else was saying to him and about him. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4192725;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; And the aftermath http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4203276;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; Hope it all works out for you.
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Learning to Swoop...A YouTube Saga
wolfriverjoe replied to SEREJumper's topic in Safety and Training
Wow. I have to say that you have guts to show up here. The "vultures" can be pretty harsh. But you have to realize there are valid reasons for that level of anger. Search "Bob Holler" and "Danny Page" to find out what has happened doing what you did in the pattern. Search "Sangi" to find out what has happened to someone just like you. On a 129 Safire, no less. And the video didn't show "suspended" when I looked this morning, it was "private." There's a difference. But I'm glad to hear that you were willing to listen to your friends and are going to stop the stupidity. Really, I am. Nobody wants to see you get hurt. It's just that there have been a lot of "youse" (if that's a word) that have come and gone. Some learned before they got hurt, some learned after they got hurt (with varying levels of permanent injury and disablity) and some had about 3 seconds of life left to realize how serious their error was. "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo -
Hi Sangi One jumper to another we love you. Thanks for posting, we've only seen it happen Your living it Be well One Jump Wonder
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I have my sights set on swooping. OK. 1) Now. Do as Aggie suggests and go to the swooping forum. 2) Be honest about your experience and goals, and start looking for a coach. Nobody wants you NOT to swoop, people just want you to go about it the right way and the reason for that isn't to limit how fast you progress - it's because swooping is like a pyramid of skills with the bottom layer being a solid foundation in canopy flight, accuracy, all that good stuff. The top layer is that sick 720 rotation with a 700ft surf, but you CAN'T do that without the layers beneath and a good coach will help you through all of those. 3) Most importantly at the moment, you HAVE to understand that you don't need a small canopy to start swoop lessons. Yeah, you'll need a highly loaded crossbrace for a 600' surf eventually, but simply having the gear doesn't mean you'll get the result - you need the skills and experience to make the gear perform, so focus on getting those and the results and canopy progression will come naturally. How fast they come depends on how frequently you jump and your natural talent - some people DO progress faster than others, but it's a case of doing stuff in 800 jumps rather than 1000 for someone else. It's NOT a case of doing something in 100 jumps rather than 1000 - talent doesn't make up for that much difference in experience. Keep that in mind. Your other option is to ignore everything said here because you know better, and the community at large is just trying to hold you back. Buy a Katana 120, find somewhere to jump it and try to work out how to swoop on your own. You may think you're better than most. You may think that you'll be conservative, but you're not, and you won't. You WILL get hurt. Send Sangi a PM - ask him what he thinks about this. I'd be really interested to read his reply.
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DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size?
AggieDave replied to -Joey-'s topic in General Skydiving Discussions
I have my sights set on swooping. Good, go to the Swooping forum and read what all the experienced swoopers have said. Also search for Sangi and read all of that disaster, since it applies here. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." -
DZO's: Lower limit on canopy size?
davelepka replied to -Joey-'s topic in General Skydiving Discussions
Don't lie to us, you weren't thinking at all. Canopy size is not related to what you can 'get away with' at a given DZ. It's related to your own skills/training/ability, and the point at which a DZO would toss you out on your ass has nothing to do with that. If you can't see that getting anywhere near the point that a DZO would turn down your business is a terrible idea, and real threat to your health and well-being, you might want to quit while you're ahead (and still walking/breathing). Do a search on this site for Ted Nelson and Sangi. -
Yikes. I don't think that was cool at all. Talk about showing off your mad skillz / the rules don't apply to me / but it's OK 'cause we have a GoPro running. While I've only logged apox. 140 hours flying helicopters I can tell you that was very, very wrong: 1. The Robinson R22 is a notoriously twitchy little ship. In fact there have been so many accidents/fatalities in them that the FAA now requires a special type endorsement in addition to your helicopter license to fly them as pilot in command. Wouldn't be my first choice in Helicopters for non-approved maneuvers. 2. By hovering that high off the ground they are completely busting the height / velocity curve. That’s a critical safety helicopter parameter that says (for ships like the R22) if you’re above 5 feet then you have to be going a minimum forward speed on order to be able to auto-rotate if the engine fails. Summary: if they have a power failure doing what’s shown in this video they are in Sangi level deep shit. 3. Then there’s the little issue of hovering into the trees themselves. One minor slip / a gust of wind / an engine glitch and there is a good chance the main rotors contact the trees. This too would be a deadly scenario. 4. The FAA lists five dangerous attitudes no pilot should have. Number 3 Invulnerability: “It won’t happen to me. Many people falsely believe that accidents happen to others, but never to them." Number 4. Macho: "Pilots with this type of attitude will try to prove themselves by taking risks in order to impress others." Sound familiar? 5. He’s doing this with a student??? Seriously?? WTF kind of example does that set. 6. They’re transferring control of the ship between them without full positive acknowledgment. As in, instructor: “you have the controls” student: “I have the controls” 7. He’s smoking a cigarette in flight? (Not permitted as per Robinson) 8. And all of this is being captured by a GoPro – which may explain why he’s “showing off” just a little extra bit. (I believe there's been a thread or two here about the effects of flying with a camera.) Now, it’s obvious the instructor is an accomplished, comfortable pilot with -- I’m guessing -- an awful lot of flight hours. But he should still have his ass grounded and his license pulled if only for being so stupid as to post this on YouTube. Edited to add: I posted a similar comment about this on metafilter.com. Here's my favorite response: I just want to provide a counterpoint to Dean358's comments. While safety was obviously not treated as the highest priority in this scenario, keep the following points in mind: That shit was fucking sick. They had a fucking camera rolling brother. Them guys were fucking tripping. Did you know that? They were fucking tripping, son. www.wci.nyc
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List of Jumpers I Should Have Heard of...?
Divalent replied to Namowal's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
And for completely different reasons: - Ted Nelson - Sangi -
lindenwood meet sangi. good luck dont let life pass you by
