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Awesome post Dave!!! To the OP some on here are going to give you shit because of your lack of experience. Some are doing it, because they have seen the blood and guts first hand. They have seen friends die or end up crippled. Swooping is dangerous. And some are just assholes and take every oppurtunity to display it online.... As DocPop stated Dave and Ian are some of the few that take to heart helping younger guys do it right. The key is RIGHT. I am not qualified to give you specific advice in swooping. What I will say is take it slow and get coaching. Coaching really is worth its weight in gold so to speak. Just makes sure your "coaching" is from a qualified sorce, like a proven competive canopy pilot, not just some guy from your dz. Dave is spot on when he tells you it will take thousands of jumps. If it is something you want to pursue one thing I know is you will pursue it anyway. Just make sure you pursue your goals the right way. Get coaching and take it SLOW. I would highly recommend you search for Sangi in the incidents forum. Watch the links to his videos. After that, drill in to your head that if I take it too fast this WILL happen to me! You COULD have the skill within you to be the best. I don't know you and have no idea. In fact, with your level of experience no one knows yet. Nick Batsh came from my area. When he was starting off everyone thought he was nuts and going to kill himself. Now look at him. Unarguably one of the best, in my opinion he is the best, but I am a "homer" lol. You will never find out if you can dethrone the best if you break yourself before your time. The skills Dave described for the pattern are essential before ever getting to turns. You can't build a skyscraper without a strong foundation. It will just come crashing down, like Sangi. Seriously go watch, and yes it CAN happen to you. Be sure to read the descriptions too. http://youtu.be/tF578oSkrKk http://youtu.be/9YZHpdtQVMw I am an asshole, but I am honest
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This guy insisted he was ok to jump a Velo
obelixtim replied to chuckakers's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
Not my words. An early report on our friend Sangi. I'm sure the titan that saved his life while he lay smashed on the DZ was able to usefully draw on his monstrous ego to keep Sangi alive till the meatwagon arrived... You want more? Go to the swooping forum, and read the thread entitled "Post your hot swoop X Rays". It is a quite graphic read of the consequences of screwing up a HP landing, in the words of the individuals involved. If you can handle it. Then come back on here and tell us titans with massive egos that we are out of line. Lets see....wolves, skygods, egocentric titans, delusional bullies.... Who would have thought we really are such nasty, horrible, people.... Yet to see any really constructive/useful comments about alternative ways to solve the problem of senseless death and injury on the DZ's all of us use. How about it?. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... -
1.61 wing loading on 150 sq ft, at 230 total jumps?
wolfriverjoe replied to skydiverek's topic in Safety and Training
Have him ask Sangi. Sangi was under a 129, but only loading it at 1.3. That didn't work out so well. "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo -
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"Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!"
billvon replied to ntrprnr's topic in Safety and Training
>if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi >did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your >argument is. There's no comparison between the two. There sure is. They both contain one very important component that is identical in both cases - a skydiver who thinks "I'm shit hot, and all that canopy nazi/camera nazi advice doesn't apply to me. I'm special." A lot of your arguments could be taken verbatim from Sangi's old threads, just replacing "canopy" with "camera." -
"Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!"
skydiver604 replied to ntrprnr's topic in Safety and Training
I'm fully aware of the history surrounding Sangi, and if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your argument is. There's no comparison between the two. There may be no comparison between the two but when a jump goes for shit the end result can be the same or comparable or worse "The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo -
"Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!"
sacex250 replied to ntrprnr's topic in Safety and Training
I'm fully aware of the history surrounding Sangi, and if you're somehow under the delusion that rapidly downsizing and swooping as Sangi did compares to wearing a camera then it just goes to show how irrational your argument is. There's no comparison between the two. It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. -
"Check out my GoPro footage of my first solo!"
PiLFy replied to ntrprnr's topic in Safety and Training
Holy Sangi-Sh*t... I may be naive, but it's amazing to me that someone could be so foolish. W/all the information that's readily available on this site. How can you possibly be so dense??? Think you're ten feet tall & bullet proof? Think all the old hands are just overly conservative Wimps? I strongly urge you to test your superiority by reaching out to this guy: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?username=Sangi; He has plenty of time to answer your PMs. Almost four months after hammering in, he still can't walk or even feel his legs. We remain hopeful that one day he will walk again. If you don't reach out to him, & have an honest exchange of ideas? You're an absolute idiot, & already crippled or dead. Please at least have the decency to only kill yourself when you pound in. Edit to add: Why not? I'll even make it easier for you. Read this thread from beginning to end: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4192725;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; Sound familiar??? -
Hi VB, correct me if i,m wrong, but you seem to be taking Bills posts as a personal attack on yourself and your gear choices which they are most definately not. You're jumping a very high performance canopy which many believe including myself and i'm almost certain many of your fellow skydivers at your home DZ is beyond your current skill set given your time in the sport and your jump numbers par-se. I also believe you were jealous of Sangi when he started jumping the 107 hence the outting in the S & T forum, dispite him reverting back to the 129 Safire (ironically the same model/size as the canopy you currently jump) he still biffed in and now with the benefit of hindsight has seen the light. Bill amongst others is simply trying to help you see the same light and avoid another possible but senseless injury/death due to these things happen to others not me mindset. Since the Sangi thread which you started you've shown yourself up to be nothing but a hypocrite hence my suppostion of the green eyed monster thinly diguished as concern in that said thread. Your posts since, though sometimes amusing don't add anything constructive to the dicussions in hand and it would be grownup to show just a little respect for those you don't know as well as those that you do. You're formally invited to call me a Cee yoU Next Tuesday or whatever publically on these forums or via PM or if you like to my face (address can be supplied), i can assure you verbal attacks cause me no pain impacting with solid objects does and you should have it in your own interests to minimise the likelyhood of the latter. .CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.
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Bill, you'll strain the barrel of your rifle if you take long distance potshots from the rarified atmosphere of that pedestal. FWIW, my comment was only partly directed at Sangi, but perhaps it was too subtle for even you to grasp that point..... Be clear. I am definitely NOT one of those offering a friendly shoulder for Sangi to cry on. I'm glad he is alive, but I have no sympathy for his self inflicted misfortune. Having dealt a crushing blow to both his body and his ego, the sympathy vote is all he has left. He doesn't get mine though.... That might suggest he suffered an unfortunate accident through no fault of his own, which was clearly not the case. He is an example for his bulletproof peers, but that is about it. Like him, I doubt they will be receptive to his message though. Like him, they need to know there is no glory to be gained both before or AFTER they've tried the "damn the torpedoes" game and lost, no matter how humble they have suddenly become. I wish him well for his future career in the bowling alley. My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
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>The problem is...we all think we're not that "guy" or "gal"...just ask Sangi... Well, Virgin Burner is a better example; he is doing all the "well, yes I am better than most but everyone tells me I am" things. Sangi, against our expectations, has learned that very important lesson. I just wish he didn't have to learn it in quite so dramatic a fashion.
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I don't think that'd make any difference in this case. It didn't make any difference to Sangi did it? I think the saddest thing about this incident is that there was a lot of calculation that went into where Denis pulled and the only mistake was that he sniveled through AAD firing height a little too fast. He's just playing everyone by saying "I learned to pull higher". He kinda did but not the way we're all assuming. It's pretty obvious that we all learn about hard decks as students and minimum pull altitudes "pull higher" when you are sailing through 2k glancing at your altimeter isn't really a case of "I lost altitude awareness". I'd love to say you guys got through to him but he's just another Sangi waiting to go splat.
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>I'm not convinced that restricting wing loading on its own will solve this kind of >problem. Not completely, no. It's at best a partial solution. >Yes, a high wing loading makes for faster crashes but if Sangi has lowered his wing >loading by 0.2 or whatever, would he still have hooked in? Probably - but his injury would likely have been something like a broken wrist or ankle. Had it been under a Velocity or Katana he would be dead. A large part of the "don't downsize so fast kid" rationale is to allow them to survive the mistakes they make so they can learn from them. >Restricting wing loadings may reduce the severity of the injuries or it may not but I'm >not convinced it tackles the root cause of the problem, which was essentially just plain >old crap flying. Agreed 100%. It just mitigates the mistake. >Maybe it would be better to try and restrict the severity of the stupid shit people can >do instead of just trying to make stupid shit slightly less deadly. That would be great. But what could you have said to Sangi to make him do less stupid shit? Fortunately he upsized and that at least saved his life. What do you say now to Virgin-Burner (or whoever the latest pre-swoop-victim is) to make him do less stupid shit? If you tell him to be less aggressive he'll tell you "my instructors all have a bazillion jumps and I'm not going to listen to some Internet/visitor/non-instructor idiot tell me blah blah blah . . . . " Again, perhaps you can't do anything - but getting him to upsize might just save his life. And that's not a perfect solution, but it's a lot better than the alternative.
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I'm not convinced that restricting wing loading on its own will solve this kind of problem. Yes, a high wing loading makes for faster crashes but if Sangi has lowered his wing loading by 0.2 or whatever, would he still have hooked in? I reckon he would have and that's because the root cause of his accident wasn't too high a wing loading but rather too much of a rotation done at far too low an altitude. The thing is Sangi deliberately set up his pattern that way. He got away with it a fair few times (and many people fall into the same trap) until one day he didn't. Restricting wing loadings may reduce the severity of the injuries or it may not but I'm not convinced it tackles the root cause of the problem, which was essentially just plain old crap flying. Maybe it would be better to try and restrict the severity of the stupid shit people can do instead of just trying to make stupid shit slightly less deadly. Just a thought. I think you are correct. There is a saying that seems popular in the US "you can't fix stupid". By restricting wingloading you hopefully allow people to bust a bone or bruise their ego, on the path of learning. It should reduce fatalities. Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.
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I'm not convinced that restricting wing loading on its own will solve this kind of problem. Yes, a high wing loading makes for faster crashes but if Sangi has lowered his wing loading by 0.2 or whatever, would he still have hooked in? I reckon he would have and that's because the root cause of his accident wasn't too high a wing loading but rather too much of a rotation done at far too low an altitude. The thing is Sangi deliberately set up his pattern that way. He got away with it a fair few times (and many people fall into the same trap) until one day he didn't. Restricting wing loadings may reduce the severity of the injuries or it may not but I'm not convinced it tackles the root cause of the problem, which was essentially just plain old crap flying. Maybe it would be better to try and restrict the severity of the stupid shit people can do instead of just trying to make stupid shit slightly less deadly. Just a thought.
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>i'm scared now! You sound more and more like Sangi (the old Sangi) every day.
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I wanted to say, when I said, I thought Sangi, I meant no disrespect, just that, I am extremely new jumper and new to this forum, the sangi situation was pretty much going on right when I got here, I read all about it, and it did have an effect on me, as it should on all our new jumpers. I do hope he recovers, and gets in the air soon, and from what people have said he is coming around, and he should know people have learned from his mistakes beyond just him. I don't know enough to chastise anyone, so I'm not ripping on virgin-burner, also seems like a nice(funny) guy. I'm just saying for me, it was tough jumping with this guy, and I probably will not again. I ended up going to the tunnel and getting some coaching in there. (plus it was very windy so I had no desire to jump in those winds)
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>To be honest, while we were jumping I was thinking, Sangi! I think Sangi's learned a lot over the past few weeks. V-B might be a better example now.
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Ask you DZO why he thinks it a good idea to let someone with less than 100 jumps jump a camera and fly a 135 against every recommendation out there. If you're genuninely worriedd about this, the way to deal with it is to simply refuse to be on a plane with the idiot. If enough people do it, he'll either be told to get his shit together, or be sent packing. You may miss a couple of loads, but you won't be in the sky with a flying crater. Also, have him read the 'Watching out for Newbies' thread in this forum. When he says 'I'm not a newbie', or 'I've got mad skills', tell him to get his head out of his ass and to talk to Sangi, the subject of that thread - and he had 3 times the number of jumps your friend had. He was standing up all of his landings fine too - right up to the point he femured in as we all predicted. Have him read the incidents thread and look at the photo of Sangi lying in the grass, struggling to breathe and broken. Your mate is on the same path. Edit: Spikes - this is why newbies are so dangerous to themselves; they simply don't have a full enough understanding of skydiving to know what risks they're taking. It's not quite as simple as his weight, or even his skill - even if they guy is 120 pounds, smaller canopies fly and react differently to big ones, even at the same wingloading. You might get away with it for a while, but you're reducing the margin for error in learning to almost zero. Combine that with the camera flying, and to me it shows a dangerous attitude, or a lack of understanding of the risks he's putting himself and others in. However, if you said this to him, I'm prepared to put $20 on him saying one of the following: "It's not a distraction" "I just turn it on and forget about it" "I only use it for solos" "Hot shit canopy pilot X says I'll be fine" "I fly conservatively" "Some people learn faster than others" "I'm attending / have attended a canopy class" "I'm not going to swoop" "The old guys are just jelous of young guys who are better than them"
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Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]
wolfriverjoe replied to virgin-burner's topic in Safety and Training
Nah, wait for next season to start. We'll have another poster attacking Sangi and Docpop of being canopy nazi's who just don't understand how things work. I hope he heals quick that video was scary. Sadly this is all too true. Sangi, I'm glad you survived your mistakes. And I'm glad you learned from them and are brave enough to admit it. "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo -
Watching out for newbies [was - hard impact at Nats]
PiLFy replied to virgin-burner's topic in Safety and Training
That was freakin brutal to even watch... Sangi, I think you should post the uncut video, along w/your list of injuries. Hearing you gasp for breath, & others trying to attend to you, may help keep some other young hotshots from hurting themselves. I hope you eventually make a full recovery, Sangi. I'm sorry this happened to you. -
anyone's got a spare 50$ for our friend Sangi!?
yoink replied to virgin-burner's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
This is comedy gold. Yeah! Fuck those guys that are trying to keep you safe! Just like you were trying to do with Sangi... oh. Wait. Hey, Sangi! This is exactly how rediculous you sounded! -
anyone's got a spare 50$ for our friend Sangi!?
mccordia replied to virgin-burner's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
hyp·o·crite [hip-uh-krit] noun 1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs. 2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements. You acknowledge not having good instructors in terms of what they teach/advise. You acknowledge knowing better youself (judging your advise/actions related to Sangi). You acknowledge being wrong by igrnoring a lot of honest and well-ment advise from people who know better AND have a lot more experience than you. And you counter their arguement with the word fuck to power your empty defense. Come on man. You made a good first step by selling that wingsuit thats WAY to big for your experience level. Now do the smart thing and buy a decent sized canopy. Your instructors are clearly not people who's advise you vallue, or you would not be advising Sangi a lot of the thing you do and did as well...nor do I believe your instructors should be advising anyone if thats the advise they give you.. Vallue your life a little higher, and dont fly big wingsuits, dont basejump and dont fly small canopies to numb the pain/be cool/be special/be a rebel. I vallue you as a person. but I've seen you skydive, seen you land and I for sure would sleep a lot better knowing you're actually flying gear that fits your experience level instead of this ego based choice in small gear. JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? -
Pretty certain Sangi said something like that too... Absolutely certain Sangi said this, almost verbatim. Pot. Meet kettle. This does seem very ironic. V-B, are you going to accept Bill's offer?
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anyone's got a spare 50$ for our friend Sangi!?
yoink replied to virgin-burner's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
Pretty certain Sangi said something like that too... Absolutely certain Sangi said this, almost verbatim. Pot. Meet kettle. -
anyone's got a spare 50$ for our friend Sangi!?
ufk22 replied to virgin-burner's topic in General Skydiving Discussions
Of the three of us; Sangi learned his lesson (I hope) the hard way and I have learned in a less hard way (but it still took too long). Virgin-Burner, it seems, is now the last of the three "cool kids" who is still pushing the envelope and refusing to hear what others are telling him. Maybe I have forfeited my right to preach on this subject given my previous posts, I am not sure. Or maybe Sangi and I are just the right people to speak up on this having been "that guy". I think that where you have been and where you are now gives you every right to preach. Anyone who can't accept your change in attitude isn't worth worrying about. I'm glad you are where you are. You even post like a grownup now. This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.
