USPA

Since the topic isn't closed (yet). I will try to put the Dutch (and Dutch only! technical (Not mandatory!)) bulletin translation here: -------------------------- Technical bulletin 2006-02 Date: 6 april 2006 Replaces: N.A. Concerning: Javelin Odyssey's, fitted with a topflap, which is, including stiffener plate, sawed into the binding of the reserve container. This concerns a change in the productionproces of the Javelin Odyssey's, which have been put on the market since the end of 2003. (Note from translator: doesn't specifiy when excatly) Problem: The extra resitance which is caused by the though sewed-in topflap, can cause the reserve pilot chute not to "jump up" enough after activation. The quick recoil of this flap could lead to the possibility, that the pilot chute would hook on to it. This could cause a delay, or malfunction of the reserve opening. Solution: Replacement by the above described topflap by the original design, which also can be retrofit acoording to this design. To be excuted by: Rigger / manufactorer. Note: There has been intesive communications with the manufactorer the last weeks. His (it's ?) advice for trouble free pilot chute launches, is the follow the in the USA applicable 120 day repack cycle, in combination with a correctly sized reserve and reserve loop. For Systems which aren't modified acoording to this bulletion and addendumm the technical comitee advises to follow these recomandations -------------------- The strange thing also; The addendum speaks of a FAA master rigger or foreign equivalant, but the bulletin is only applicable to members of the dutch skydiving association, in which only the dutch riggers are recognized. Unlike the US system, riggers have no legal authority what so ever. (Although, all skydivers in the Netherlands are member of the KNVvL and therefore this can ben enforced, when it would be a safety bulletin instead of a technical bulletin.) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

This is a technical bulletin, which in the Dutch system means you don't have to comply. I personally wouldn't comply simply because the manufactorer doesn't endorce it. The problem in The Netherlands is that we only have about 10-15 riggers, and 2 influential riggers have pushed this bulletin. (Hi guys, I know you are reading this, no offence, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I am told, by different sources). Although I have been asking around, I have yet to have seen a demonstration of this "problem". Of what I've been told (put this is a very big hear-say) the demonstration involves a.o. a modification to keep the rig close, but since I haven't seen a demonstration yet, i cannot confirm this. This bulletin was "announced" in the bar-gossip circuit, so there has been some talk already, but the official bulletin is only just release (I have yet to receive it). The bulletin issued basically says, about communication with manufactorer, that the manufactorer doesn't recognize our 6 months repack cycle and therefore doesn't want to look into the "problem". (or at least, this is what is implied, the way I read it). Personally I think the opening post is very strange in the light of this bulletin, it's a little too much coincidence, also since the TS has only posted in this topic. I pressume the IP will be a dutch one. I suggest this topic should be closed, untill in The Netherlands things are cleared up or Sunpath has an official reaction. Too much politics involved here and maybe more suited on the dutch skydivers forum (http://www.paraforum.nl) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

that's not funny, that's just a annoying group of jumpers not getting out. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

there is a difference between "fooling around" among staffers and regular jumpers and the selfish dangerous act you are describing. Pushing someone out of the door because you're in a hurry is an extreme violation of basic safety. If it would happen the way you described it at I dropzone I was at, I would have grounded the person who pushed for at least 2 weeks (which in the dutch system instructors are able to do). The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

just need to rob that bank first though... The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

You're right. I just looked at the website and the visio indeed doesn't have swoop alarms. I do remember that they were there before. Is my mind playing tricks? IMHO it's a dissapointment for me, cause I really want a L & B product and I am looking for a digital altimeter for swooping, in which I would like swoop alarms.. :( The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

It's not bad to have your own ideas. Most skydivers who are interested in the material, have thought off the "cutaway AAD", but most, if not all have abandoned it. Also keep in mind that insight en knowledge grows, with experience and realize that most people here have alot more experience and insight than you do. Not to "diss" you, but something to keep in mind. Like stated before, it is impossible to set the firing parameters for such a device. If you want to save the jumper with a spinning mal incident, you have to have a device that fires under a good canopy situation also. So the first problem is a cutaway-AAD simply can't tell if a canopy is ok or not. You stated earlier "the worst that could happen is a startled skydiver that lands his reserve instead is main". This is simply wrong. There are lots of scenarios in which a misfire of a cutaway-AAD would result in death. Also, don't forget, skydiving IS dangerous, it IS a high risk activity and probably the most dangerous thing you'll ever do. If you jump long enough, you'll realize that if you look at the ratio "skydive related" funerals with "non skydiver related" funerals you'll attend, it will shift towards the first one. And if someone makes a mistake that costs his life, then that is exactly what it is. If you don't accept making a mistake could cause you and other your lives, you shouldn't be jumping. (with a FS jump not tucking your PC in the pouch enough, unwanted opening after exit, kills both you AND the videoguy). edited for spelling errors. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Nowadays I don't buy my rigger anything either, since he did get paid for it. Main difference is dat is costs $ 100,- nowadays (at my Rigger, NLD) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Not an urban legend, if I'm not mistaken it happend in The Netherlands at least once with a student cypres (1). The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

How would this help? (you need speed to reinflate and pulling the tail != (does not equal) pulling up the nose) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

So it seems, that indeed this was NOT a misfire, as stated earlier by more people. Only question remains: Did the vigil fire, and the cypres2 not, because the vigil has a quicker response, or because if was below "120 feet"? The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

The systems work differently. The parafun system worked (as i understand it) with a pin and a stiffener near the freebag. The skyhook system works completly different. The effects both systems have are (almost) the same, but they do it in different ways. THIS can be patented, like someone else said in the thread, there a different pattented can-openers. Also if you are computer save, HD-DVD and blu-ray do exactly the same (in your comparison), but they are 2 different patents. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Don't forget arming is something different then disarming. E.g. Cypres I armes at 1500 feet, but disarmes under 120 feet. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

You don't know if the cypres didn't fire because it recognized an inconsistent pattern, or that the 120 feet firing window saved the cypres. The way I see it, you should compare the Vigil with the CYPRES2 do have a fair comparison. The Vigil is programmed to fire below 840 ft when parameters are met. The CYPRES2 is programmed to fire below 750 ft and above 120 (or 300 for speed). When the activation parameters were met it might be (we all don't know this yet) that it was under 120 feet. The cypres was already "disarmed" the vigil wasn't. Does this mean cypres is "better", you can't say this yet. It depends on your choice, do you like your AAD always to fire under its activation altitude, or do you like cypres solution which (may) prevent this fire? Personally, the Cypres solutions seems a good choice in this case, and the Vigil solution (no "bottom" window) may have no advantages, but maybe it does. In any case, if the above described scenario (IF this is the case), it has nothing to do with "more sophisticated software" of "mis-firing because the unit was confused" But much more simple. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Yeah, but at 30-40 rigs, cost is also an issue. The Solo is way more expensive then the skymaster. So we started a to compare student canopies again. (allot of them incl. sabre/ navigator/ solo/ pilot etc etc etc). Comparing everything the zp.exe came out on top this time. (Don't ask about details, I wasn't involved this time.. :) ) The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

I don't think we have any manta's anymore, but I could be wrong (haven't checked in a while). Zp.exe's are replacing the skymasters, which have become unavaible. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Mail them, then don't have exact dates yet, both they have a sort of roadmap set out. So find out if altitrack is some of the first or some of the last products released. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

N/A

Firstly, there are numerous incidents with people hitting the plane/tail only hop and pops. Secondly, my point is the risk was already known to some, but not being communicated to the world as a bigger whole. What I am trying to say, the lessons learned from this incidents should not only be "Beware of dangers associated with combining high performance landings with AAD's" but should also be the question "Why wasn't this communicated before a fatality accured" The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Last year. (when affected canopies were being jumped long enough) Oh yeah, some other guy tested it and found it could activate. They then said this guy didn't know what he was doing. Apperently he was, and they weren't. This is exaclty my point. I never seen a report from the manufactorer there was a danger, in fact they were activily promoting it for swooping and activly denying there was a danger. Even when a number of people were crying out to them, to change their policies on this point. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

I've been biting my tongue this thread, but I can't hold on anymore... Fact : Every jumper is responsible for his own actions/ choices. Fact: Every jumper puts his life on the line every time he leaves the airplane and should be aware of this fact. But I don't understand why cypres is handled with velvet gloves on this case. They are IMHO partly responsible for recent events. That DOES NOT mean they are at fault. Why? Fact: Cypres has been adverticed as "turn on in the morning and forget" (and although I never rely on any AAD by default, I interpet this as you don't have to take the cypres into your decision making) Fact: The cypres manual states no manouvre van activate the expert unit under canopy Fact: Untill recent events Cypres said clearly it wasn't possible to activate it under current mains (the velocity 95 was jumped when they released their statements about this) Fact: Cypres was made aware of its mistake after a field experiment. But chose to attack the experiment instead of taking action. Fact: A letter was sent to cypress earlier this year reporting similar incidents (4 over the last year at least) with better outcome, crying out to take action. Fact: Cypres was developing a "swoop" version already, so apperntly they had some insight that it could be activated under the main. sigh, I had to get this off my chest... The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

I posted a report in Incidents. My condolences to his girlfriend, daughter, family and friends. The skydive comunity will miss a pioneer, but girlfriend and daughter will miss so much more... Subject line edited by slotperfect so this "condolences thread" doesn't get mistaken as a cross-post. It had a duplicate title to that of the Incidents thread. I also corrected the spelling of his last name. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

I don't think it's enough blood to have any effect, but all your blood comes from the bloodstream! Your confusing the endometrium with blood. The endometrium is what builds up, the blood comes from ruptured (soons more scary then it is) small blood vessels. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

Yes, pooling was the only possibility I could think of also, Ik know the venous system has the capability to pool large volumes off blood. But I would guess in order to pool such a large volume, which the heart and othere systems couldn't compensate would be easily visible because of very thick leggs (e.g. like in a rupture of the external iliac). But I could be wrong here. I also didn't thought of beta blockers or other farmaceuticals. Hypoxia though at 1500 (or 20 seconds before that) would seem to me highly unlikly? But like I said, only a student and not studing for clinical practice. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

You should consult your doctor ASAP! I haven't got a clue, what the cause was, but being a medical student I can tell you it is highly unlikly you would pass out from tight legstraps. The body just doesn't work this way. Bloodflow is 1 of my specialties and although my knowledge isn't infinite (I learn every day), I just don't see it happening. The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...