Why don't you like Pullouts?

[rigging65 0]

This thread kind of morphed from another, so I thought it needed it's own place.

Here's the question: What are your HONEST reasons for not liking a Pullout? "I know nothing about them" is a perfectly acceptable answer. In fact, ANY truthful answer would be great.

Here's the caveat: If you like pullouts (regardless if you jump one or not) PLEASE DON'T POST HERE! I want to get a collection of REAL answers to this question and don't want to pollute the answer pool. Everyone is free to answer, just please be honest.

My last point before I let this go: I jump a pullout and do so for many reasons. Regardless of the outcome of this thread, I won't respond to any of the posts (unless the poster asks for a response), so you're safe there. This thread is simply here to gather information so that I (we all) can see what people think.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Here's the question: What are your HONEST reasons for not liking a Pullout? "I know nothing about them" is a perfectly acceptable answer. In fact, ANY truthful answer would be great.

Three reasons:

a: because Monkey Claw told me not to freefly in them. (freeflying seminar, WFFC01)

b: because nobody else has them, and this will affect the resale value of my rig.

c: I don't see any advantages to them.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Professor 0]

1) nobody else jumps them.
2) I've personally witnessed at least two floating pud reserve rides in the last couple years. I've never seen a horseshoe.
3) I already have a throw out, and it works fine (if it ain't broke...)

I'll still seriously consider one the next time I get a new rig, but not wanting multiple deployment systems will probably steer me away from a pull-out.

Ted
Like a giddy school girl.

[Ron 7]

1. I learned on a Throw out.
2. I have almost 3,000 jumps on a throw out, and I have not had any problem with it...If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
3. I can't see any real benefit of a pullout over a throw out.
4. I have seen more reserve rides due to floating puds than horseshoes.
5. I don't know how to pack one..yes I could learn, but I have a packing routine...

Ron

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Faber 0]

1. not many jump them so its hard to get education on how to use/pack them.

2.the posibilyti of loosing the pud and not beabel to pull your main is shit.if the same happens to through out systems,you simply reach for the pc one more time

3.i dont like the idea of my pc are "inside"the pack job(meaning the container).

why have an extra chain on the link were it could go wrong?

no i have never jumped the system,and i dont think ill ever will.I migth be wrong in my statsments,if so pleace correct me

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[wmw999 2,146]

For me, the reasons aren't as strong as they used to be:

1. Floating pud. This one can still apply -- I have short arms, and reaching to the middle of my back and fishing around for a floating pud isn't trivial.
2. Weak pull. This isn't as true as it was when gear was bigger. The pull with my arm fully extended, elbow locked (which was the only way to reach the pull-out) is a whole lot less efficient than if you can start with your elbow bent.
3. Weak pull. The two pull-out rigs I jumped sometimes just plain had harder pulls. I know this could be changed, it just wasn't.

#2 is by far the most significant. I had a reserve ride when I just couldn't get the pin pulled because of the ugly pull angle.

That said, if I could try it out first, I'd jump a pull out now if it were on well-priced gear; gear is smaller, and with the BOC throwout being common now the location between the two isn't significantly different.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[cloud9 0]

1. There is no way reaching back and behind to get as much pull force as a PC can generate. So hard pin pull reserve ride, with throw out wouldn't even know.

2. Floating pud almost always a reserve ride.

3. If floating pud is caught and you jump an elliptical canopy, line twist and possibly a reserve ride. It's very hard to be square and searching desperately for a pud

4. Seems to be to be a lot more chances of a reserve ride to eliminate a horse shoe which is rare.

[geanky 0]

not recommended for wing suit flying...at least last time i checked

learn to fly in 3d

[hookitt 0]

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a: because Monkey Claw told me not to freefly in them. (freeflying seminar, WFFC01)

I sent an Email out to the Members of Monkey claw to please read this thread Here is the response I recieved from Bert
======================
I cannot post, but I would appreciate it if you could respond on our behalf.

Perhaps the attendant of our seminar at WFFC may have mistaken our concerns regarding RSLs and Rear of Leg Deployment systems (ROL).

I do not believe we have ever made statements regarding the use of pullout deployment systems as unacceptable for freeflying. We have stressed in the past the necessity for tight fitting pin enclosures, minimal bridle exposure, and tight riser covers. In fact, we stress that BOC and pullouts are the mandated forms of deployment we require our students to posses prior to any MonkeyClaw coached jump. Should a student have a Rear of Leg deployment system, it is our policy not coach the student until they switch to either a BOC or pullout rig. Two members of our team have been jumping pullouts successfully for the majority of our careers, and I'm sure none of the other MonkeyClaw team members would consider PUDS unacceptable for freeflying.

Hope this helps,

Bert

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[iowa 0]

With the newer/better ways that the pud is secured now, that's not a reason for me.

When I started jumping in '85 they were considered death rigs by everyone that didn't have one. I don't think that's true anymore (with more secure pud).

But this old dog doesn't want to learn that trick.

I resist change.

Keith

''Always do sober what you said you would do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.'' - Ernest Hemingway

[Yoshi 0]

personally I have a throw out with a freefly pud. the pud stays in place and I like the throw out because I occasionally do birdman jumps where a pud may be caught in a burble and not be able to be deployed.
-yoshi

_________________________________________
this space for rent.

[rigging65 0]

Let's keep on topic here: Why don't you like the pullout system? Is it only because of wingsuit jumps?

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[riddler 0]

I think it's a lot like the SOS system. People can debate for ages whether it is better or not better, but it comes down to the fact that you don't see them that much. Most skydiving gear has throw-out BOC, and that's kind of what people expect.

I can't say I don't like the pull-out, but I can say I've never used one.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Jessica 0]

I had a reserve ride on a ripcord system on my 15th jump because I lacked the strength to get the ripcord out during a hard pull.

I vastly prefer to rely on the pilot chute, which can generate a lot more pull force than I can, to pull my pin.

Skydiving is for cool people only

[JDBoston 0]

2. Floating pud almost always a reserve ride.
----------------------------------------------------

This depends on your rig design.

On my rig, the bridle comes out right in the center by the pin, and if you can't find it after missing the handle, then you just didn't spend the 5 minutes on the ground learning how... it's not at all hard to deal with.

Joe

[MrHixxx 0]

I know I am not supposed to answer this thread since I am a happy accomplished pud puller. I have had a couple floating handles that I extracted on the first try with a thumb sweep. Of course, I am frequently touching the touch flap and the handle on the ground so it is easy to reference.

-Hixxx

death,as men call him, ends what they call men
-but beauty is more now than dying’s when

[mikkey 0]

This is partly off-topic, but please be aware of the dangers of changing between deployment methods. I had to go for terminal reserve ride due to this in the early 90's. At the time I was jumping a hand deploy system with PC on leg strap. Borrowed a rig with pull-out (pillow with velcro).
I was on a RW jump that went a little low, so I found myself at passing 2000 feet at pull time. I was "used to" just to pull out PC from leg strap and release (PC already in air stream on the side of my leg). Because I was "stressed" by the altitude, I grabbed the pillow, pulled and released. Nothing happened because PC collapsed onto container in burble. I did not exactly know that, and because I was low and had no time to find out what was wrong, I went straight to cut away handle and silver. Main came out and flew away, no problem with reserve - deployed at 1000 feet.
So what I am saying is, IF you want to check out different deployment systems (i.e. difference between BOC and Pull Out) - please be careful and do a lot of ground training. Changing even slight the way you do things can get you in trouble.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Clownburner 0]

1. I've never jumped a pull-out. I can't say I don't like them though, but:

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Changing even slight the way you do things can get you in trouble.

I was trained on throw-out, and this is a good example of why I probably won't convert to pull-out. It's the devil you know; and with modern systems, good equipment maint and a well-packed pilot chute, I think the the throw-out is probably as safe as the pull-out.

2. Resale value of pull-outs is low because the throw-out is much more popular (at the moment, anyway). I think it was Bill Booth that said 90% of the rigs they sell are BOC.

Notably, I did opt for a PUD handle on my BOC; it seemed like a better option because it didn't move around at all during freefall, whereas hackeys seem to bounce around a bit. It probably doesn't make much difference really, but it's all about perceptions anyway.

7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez
"I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth

[ZigZag 0]

The issue of pull-outs should be considered in the historical perspective, ie. the evolution of deployment methods. The static line and throw-out methods might be considered the primary deployment techniques considered by our ancestry in achieving satisfactory results of deploying life saving canopies. The rip-cord that released the flaps of a container in order to liberate a spring loaded pilot-chute might very well be considered a pull-out system, at the very same time being classified as a hand-deploy system. So much for all of those that learned how to "parachute" via the static line and free fall progression method. Hand-deploy and throw-out methods via the belly-band and rear-of-leg pouches soon led to an understanding that twisted belly-bands and leg-strap junctions would lead to total malfunctions, by virtue of trapped bridles rendering the P/C useless as a drag device!
ROL did survive for a number of years, mainly from the perception that one needed to be able to "see" the handle,PVC and Hackey attachement. This is how we where taught. Somebody eventually reasoned that if you can wipe your ass without looking, you should be able to deploy your P/C from the BOC position. This had the benefit of reducing malfunctions due to twisted bridles, reliable positioning of the hackey or PVC handle, reduced exposure of bridle, but did not eliminate the posibility of premature deployments or bunched up P/C's in the pouch, leading to hard or impossible pulls, issues that still concern us to date. Maintenance of the pouch and correct folding of the P/C assembly should reduce some of those concerns.
Some jumpers feel that being in control of pulling the pin themselves gives them a measure of control in how and when their containers open. This system in itself has evolved from the "banana" pud, to the Velcro retained or selflocking pud. Floating handles are rare these days, but it is still common malfunction procedure training, in dealing with this issue.
At the root of anyones desire to jump with any given system is the need to thouroughly understand the benefits and limitations of any given system. Our knowledge base is at times flawed. You will just have ask a lot of questions of those that do or not use these systems. The old timers that have some of this knowledge base are gradually drifting out of our time frame of reference. Grab what you can and learn.

[NeedToJump 0]

I have jumped pullouts a few times and never had a problem, but the main reason I don't (won't) jump them is just because I'm used to throw outs. It's what I was trained on, I feel comfortable with it and most of all - I know it works. I see no need to change something that is generally considered to be safe. I don't know anyone who will not jump a rig if it has a throw out on it.

Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com

[riggerrob 558]

After 4,000 jumps - over 24 years - I am too old and grumpy to change away from throw-out.
I also like T.K. Donle's argument that a pilotchute can pull 80 pounds or more, where most skydivers can barely pull 20 pounds at that angle. All that extra arm effort frequently results in one-shoulder-low deployments, which lead to line twists, etc.
Also, skydivers with short arms cannot always find a floating pud.
But if you want to jump a pull-out, go for it! Every time you miss your floating pud, I will cheerfully repack your reserve.

[Yoshi 0]

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Why don't you like the pullout system? Is it only because of wingsuit jumps?

yeah thats the only reason. I think puds look cleaner and its more of an all of nothing deal.. you will either have a canopy out or a total. no pilot chute in tow and from what I understan pretty hard to have a horseshoe on a pud as well..
-yoshi

_________________________________________
this space for rent.

[tbrown 26]

I knew of a couple incidents like yours, where people deployed a pullout into their burbles. Sometimes they cleared, but there were also one or two baglocks with VERY low cutaways and sub 500 ft reserve openings. One such incident ended in a line stretch fatality (the person was a known low puller who initiated deployments below 2 grand anyway).

The fact that the PC is anchored at the base, rather than the apex means that you get considerably more drag on the thing as you pull it out. If you're not trained for that, or expecting it, the PC could easily pull itself out of your grip and flip over your back. It's definitely something anyone converting to pullout needs to be aware of and prepared for. But on the bright side, a lot of peole who switched to Racers twenty years ago were amazed and very pleased with how much faster they opened, without opening any harder. Knowing you've already got your container open has got to be nice.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[hookitt 0]

>>If you're not trained for that, or expecting it, the PC
>>could easily pull itself out of your grip and flip over your back.

I highly disagree with that. it will not flip you on your back as it pulls out of your hand. That takes a very unstable person (not emotionally) to be flipped over.

I'll refrain my additional comments on this thread since I'm an advocate of Pull-outs.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[skymedic 0]

He said the PC would flip OVER your back...not flip YOU over on your back....

Marc
otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman....