georgerussia 0 #1 July 6, 2006 I'm planning our end-of-July vacation now, and want to spend about an hour (maybe two) in a wind tunnel. My goal is to improve my belly flying so I can safely participate in 4+ways. As we are going to Las Vegas and Orlando, there are two choices - Flyaway, LV or SkyVenture, OR. From time perspective, Flyaway is more convinient for me, but the goal is to improve my skills, so the better the better. Which one is better to choose, taking in account the following considerations? Also, some tunnel-related questions (I know some look silly, sorry for that): 1. Is it possible to fly in my own gear (jumpsuit/helmet)? I've heard that you need a special tunnel suit, but a part of my goal is to learn to fly my own suit. 2. My particular concern about Flyaway is air temperature - when there is 110F in Las Vegas, it should be really hot inside the tunnel, and I'm not good with 110F at all. Is it so? 3. Is one hour enough to learn those things (stability in tunnel, fall rate, turns in place, sliding, etc)? Should I get coaching for the whole hour? Is it better to spend the whole hour in a single day, or 15 minutes every day (IMHO the last option should be better)? 4. How far ahead should I book the tunnel time? One, two weeks? Or it is possible just to come and fly? 5. What type of package should I get? Just 4 * 5 flights w/coaching?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #2 July 6, 2006 Quote1. Is it possible to fly in my own gear (jumpsuit/helmet)? I've heard that you need a special tunnel suit, but a part of my goal is to learn to fly my own suit. If you are belly flying you should be able to wear your own suit. You may end up tucking the booties in if you have them but that's not so tragic. Quote 2. My particular concern about Flyaway is air temperature - when there is 110F in Las Vegas, it should be really hot inside the tunnel, and I'm not good with 110F at all. Is it so? If you aren't good w. heat then I suggest visiting Flyaway during the cooler months and not the summer. I LOVE THE TUNNEL but it is hot, damn hot. Quote 3. Is one hour enough to learn those things (stability in tunnel, fall rate, turns in place, sliding, etc)? Should I get coaching for the whole hour? Is it better to spend the whole hour in a single day, or 15 minutes every day (IMHO the last option should be better)? Fly as much time as you can afford. You will learn a crap ton in the tunnel. GET COACHING!!! If you need recommendations, I have the best instructor exaiminer at SVO offering super cheap coaching to my peeps. Flying 15 minutes in a day is nice but if you are looking to knock out an hour, I say do 2, 15 minute blocks in a day. The more you fly in a day the more you learn but your body gets to a point where it gives out from being tired. I find that 2, 15 minute blocks w. time inbetween for rest works best for a lot of my students. Quote 4. How far ahead should I book the tunnel time? One, two weeks? Or it is possible just to come and fly? If you want time at SVO book it NOW! Flyaway is first come first serve. Quote 5. What type of package should I get? Just 4 * 5 flights w/coaching? Packages are really only for Flyaway tunnels. SV's do blocks, like I said before do 2, 15 minute blocks over 2 days. Hope this helps.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #3 July 6, 2006 Quote1. Is it possible to fly in my own gear (jumpsuit/helmet)? Flyaway: no. The airspeed is too slow. Skyventure: yes. QuoteWhich one is better to choose The airflow in the Flyaway tunnel is fastest in the center, slower to the outside. I found it hard to fly in consistently without falling off the air column onto the necessary cushions around the bottom perimeter, even though I had a few hours of freefall time. The Skyventure tunnels do a much, much better job of simulating skydiving freefall. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #4 July 6, 2006 Quote I found it hard to fly in consistently without falling off the air column onto the necessary cushions around the bottom perimeter, even though I had a few hours of freefall time. Sky experience does not necessarily translate to bodyflight in a tunnel w.o a rig. This misconception has lead to skydivers whining about the tunnels being too slow or it's no fun. I say learn how to fly not fall, air is air, fly it, love it! Mark- this post isn't directed at you; you brought up a great point however. This is something we deal w. all the time in the tunnel and our students. i'm not sure how you view tunnel flight, but if it is seen as bodyflight and not simulating freefall everyone will fly better and have a great time in ANY tunnel.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #5 July 6, 2006 Thank you everybody! By the way, is it possible/should I wear my rig in tunnel?* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
avenfoto 0 #6 July 6, 2006 Quotelyaway: no. The airspeed is too slow. incorect. you are unable to. that does not mean it is impossible. the real flyers can fly lv in street clothes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #7 July 6, 2006 QuoteBy the way, is it possible/should I wear my rig in tunnel? No. Nothing in the tunnel that can cause harm to the instructors or fans.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #8 July 6, 2006 QuoteQuotelyaway: no. The airspeed is too slow. incorect. you are unable to. that does not mean it is impossible. the real flyers can fly lv in street clothes. You are so right on! The things the boys and girls can do at Flyaway are amazing. Esp. in shorts and a t-shirt! They are all incredible flyers out there. We all have so much to learn from them about tunnel flying.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #9 July 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuotelyaway: no. The airspeed is too slow. incorect. you are unable to. that does not mean it is impossible. the real flyers can fly lv in street clothes. You are so right on! The things the boys and girls can do at Flyaway are amazing. Esp. in shorts and a t-shirt! They are all incredible flyers out there. We all have so much to learn from them about tunnel flying. Step back you guys - Your getting off into the skydiving simulation vs tunnel flying tangent again. Mark was responding to a person that is asking what is the best for learning to skydive, especially to be able to be comfortable in 4-ways, not learning to "tunnel fly". In this case, SV is the better simulator by far (if we can all agree that George is extremely unlikely to find an anulous-shaped velocity wind profile in real freefall). If George was asking about how to stretch himself to learn to fly in various tunnel scenarios, then of course mixing it up amongst different wind tunnels and different air conditions would be a good idea. (Edit - I had a great time at Flyaway PF when I went. I had nothing to do with skydiving, nor should it have, and understanding that made it really fun - in fact, it was much easier to do t's and daffy's than SV, etc). But if my vacation goal is to improve my skydiving skills, as George is asking about, I would not go to a flyaway even if that was my only choice. For skydiving training, the Flyaways are, IMO, only really good for learning basic skills, not intermediate or advanced RW skills. i.e., I'd be happy to take a pre-AFF student to a Flyaway to get them ready for AFF. But not for anything after. It's a completely different kind of fun.) George - You can't wear a rig in the tunnel. Some people has packs that simulate the weight for training, but a good set of training sessions in the SV will do it without the rig for your goals. For a first timer in 'normal' physical fitness condition, Paige's recommendations are dead on. Get a RW coach and do it right from the outset. If you can set up or join a coached camp with others, it's a ton more fun. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #10 July 6, 2006 Incidentally just for information the airspeed boys have been trialling some "rig wraps" so you can wear your actual rig in the tunnel. Not really necessary 99 percent of the time though.Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #11 July 6, 2006 I think everone is tired of hearing it's slow, you can't do this, you can't do that, when you actually can. A simulator doesn't have to be a SV to improve your flying. That's a BIG point many skydivers miss and don't get. Just being in the air and flying helps, regardless of the air speed. Edited to add: the experience of the person making the post would not be working on advanced RW skills for his first tunnel session. I'd say that basic if not close to AFF stuff would be what he works on first.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #12 July 6, 2006 >A simulator doesn't have to be a SV to improve your flying. No, but it does have to simulate the air in freefall to be a useful tool to improve one's flying in actual freefall. The Las Vegas tunnel currently does not. That's not to say it's bad, just that it's not very useful as a way to practice freefall RW skills. But it is fun; we had a blast last time we were in there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #13 July 6, 2006 QuoteI think everone is tired of hearing it's slow, you can't do this, you can't do that, when you actually can. completely agree with this part - that's why I emphathized with the digression but wanted to keep it on track for george (I'm not a big fan of the "can't statements" either) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #14 July 6, 2006 If you are going to spend money on tunnel and expect tangible results using your own gear and such then the clear choice is a SV tunnel... period. I'm sure LV is plenty fun to fly (I'd fly it if I was in Vegas just for kicks) but if I want _training_, I'm heading for the best... and that's SVAZ or SVCO IMO. SVO would be next in line with Perris bringing up the rear. My $0.02, take it or leave it... NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
georgerussia 0 #15 July 6, 2006 Quote Mark was responding to a person that is asking what is the best for learning to skydive, especially to be able to be comfortable in 4-ways, not learning to "tunnel fly". This is correct. The main goal is to improve skydiving skills, not to learn to fly in tunnel, and definitely not to learn to fly in any tunnel (I understand that I have to learn it anyway, but it is not a goal now).* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. * Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VegasBrad 0 #16 July 6, 2006 First off thanks to Paige for giving all the great info on Flyaway. I've been a Flyaway rat for three years and my best advice to George and his goals is to go with SV. Hone your skills at SVO, and come back to Vegas in the fall or winter to have some fun. And it's not just hot in the summer, its busy as hell. Flying that amount of time while working around the masses of tourists comming through here in the summer would be tough. My $0.02: Wind is wind, and while Airzona Airspeed is not going to train a championship team in LV, the more time your body spends in the wind the more muscle memory you will gain. Besides, what's wrong with learning to fly big? Brad Hess Manager Flyaway Las vegas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #17 July 6, 2006 Quote The main goal is to improve skydiving skills, not to learn to fly in tunnel, and definitely not to learn to fly in any tunnel (I understand that I have to learn it anyway, but it is not a goal now). You will need basic tunnel skills to fly any environment successfully, even the sky, esp. if you want to stay relative and turn points falling down the tube. You could be back sliding (or have another issue) in the sky and not know it (not saying you do just using a generic example). The tunnel is very different than the sky. It can be much harder as you actually fly and go up, unlike jumping where you are always going down. The tunnel will fix and point out problems which is why some skydivers don't like it. They realize they aren't as good as they had thought. I'm not sure why this even mattters. I go to the tunnel to fly, learn, and have a good time. That's what it's all about, not who's better than who. Personal improvement is the name of the game. I look at the tunnel as a way to point out parts of my and others flying that needs improvement. No one is so good that they don't have room for improvement. A big suggestion I have is to go in w. expectatins of having a good time and that's it. The learning and skills will come if you are relaxed and having a good time regardless of the tunnel you choose to fly. If air speed & quality was that important, the Flyaway rats wouldn't be as good in the sky as they are with as few jumps as they have. Being in any air gives you better feel and understanding of how your body will work.Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #18 July 6, 2006 The Instructors out at LV (great bunch of guys) have flown in SVCO and could best answer this, but I would recommend a SV tunnel for skydiving skills. Another option besides SVO is SVCO. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paulipod 0 #19 July 7, 2006 Quotebut I would recommend a SV tunnel for skydiving skills Or trip over to the UK - where a big non-SV tunnel can offer realistic training Bodyflight Bedford www.bodyflight.co.uk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #20 July 7, 2006 QuoteOr trip over to the UK - where a big non-SV tunnel can offer realistic training WinkLaughSly LOL- ya, that one too Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #21 July 7, 2006 Quotea big non-SV tunnel wouldn't that be nice a tunnel big enough to do all the blocks without cramming them in ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #22 July 7, 2006 QuoteQuotea big non-SV tunnel wouldn't that be nice a tunnel big enough to do all the blocks without cramming them in Eloy doesn't have enough room? Since I don't do 4-way I really have no clue. When I was there visiting Craig mentioned that they do some 8 way in there but can't do all the blocks. I imagine if they can pull some of that off, most 4 way might be doable. But what the heck do I know about 4 way Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #23 July 7, 2006 Eloy is very close (as I understand it). Extremely good 4-way fliers can do all the blocks, but they have to do some (a couple) in a more cramped format. Kurt gable wrote up an article about it when the tunnel opened. Airspeed experimented right away with it and figured it all out. A couple more feet diameter, and I think even my team could practice them all. (they've done some 8-way in there? wow) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #24 July 7, 2006 QuoteEloy is very close (as I understand it). Extremely good 4-way fliers can do all the blocks, but they have to do some (a couple) in a more cramped format. Kurt gable wrote up an article about it when the tunnel opened. Airspeed experimented right away with it and figured it all out. A couple more feet diameter, and I think even my team could practice them all. (they've done some 8-way in there? wow) Dan (GQJumper) and I hired Neil from Airspeed last Christmas, and with Liz, we flew every 4way random and block in the pool in Eloy... We started with 1 and ended at the end... Took a few tunnel hours to dial them all in... I was glad the tunnel was built round, because being the front of the two-way in 22, my nose was going "ca-thunk, ca-thunk, ca-thunk" as it rubbed the glass wall during the spin... Well, actually I did not touch the glass, but I was inches away and it felt like my nose was swooping a high speed canopy over a Plexiglas pond with Neil on the back end... The round chamber really is nice, I wish all the tunnels were that way, hint, hint, hint... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paige 0 #25 July 7, 2006 7-9 people static hd in the winter It's an amazing tunnel. Def. make a trip out there with your team. The round glass is super super nice. I loved carving head up and dragging my shoulders along the glass and hd carving was great for draggin the feet. It was so smooth and wonderful. I can't wait to go back!Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate www.TunnelPinkMafia.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
