Whywhywhy won't they PLF?

[lauras 0]

So, I have my students plf'ing off of everything and anything and I make them do it over and over again. I explain about distributing the momentum rather than concentrating it on, say, an ankle. I draw parallels to mountain biking & snowboarding and how those sports do essentially a PLF with equipment attached to their feet. I emphasize feet & knees together under canopy. And then the student assumes the Big X and you know the rest.

Any suggestions? I've run out of ideas.

[AFFI 0]

I understand your frustration...

Working in a tandem progression creates the feet up for landing idea that students seem to find difficulty leaving behind. I went out to the DZ on Saturday and just sat and watched the student landings and the vast majority had "feet and legs up" at 100' in preparation for a hard landing.

After a feet up tailbone first landing by a low level student that put him out the rest of the day (and possibly to the doctor) he then became very interested in discussing in more detail the PLF landing.

We go over it and over it, we practice and what to they do? Feet up for landing...

Pain is a great motivator I guess, all you can do is you best to train them properly and hope they don’t get injured while they figured it out for themselves.

-

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[BIGUN 1,101]

Laura,

SkymonkeyOne (Chuck) is at Zhills now. Suggest you get with him for a one-on-one round table discussion.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[riggerrob 561]

The problem is that PLFs are non-intuitive.
Human brains are hard-wired to stick a hand out to reduce head injuries.
Most other sports (i.e. judo) teach the opposite of PLF.
So skydiving instructors are trying to break very old habits when they teach PLFs. To un-teach an old skill, you need to repeat the new skill hundreds or thousands of times.
For example, when I went through the Canadian Army's static-line school - back in 1981 - instructors POUNDED us into PLF mats for two weeks. When we finally got to jump phase, maybe half those young men did anything vaguely resembling a PLF. Maybe half of them landed with their feet together. The other factor was that they already had so many bruises, that they did not notice additional bruising from landing parachutes.

[JohnMitchell 14]

That's a tough one. As an instructor from the round days with no radios, I struggled to keep landing injuries below 3-4%. Many DZ's expected as high as 10% injuries on the first jump. Almost all injuries were due to landing with their legs apart.

With the advent of square parachutes and radios for students, things got better, but injuries still occur. When practicing PLF's, I have them stand in their PLF positon on the platform. I then give the radio "Ready, set, flare" routine and have them "flare" their imaginary canopy, then hop off the platform and PLF. Works okay, trying to tie the flare motion with the PLF position.

The best thing is to have the radio controller on the actual jump remind them at 100 feet to put their feet and knees together.

Nothing has worked perfectly well for training PLF's. If someone has any more ideas, please share them.

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[rehmwa 2]

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The best thing is to have the radio controller on the actual jump remind them at 100 feet to put their feet and knees together.

Or even higher.

"FEET AND KNEES TOGETHER, HANDS UP"

nothing...repeat
"FEET AND KNEES TOGETHER, HANDS UP"

nothing...repeat
"FEET AND KNEES TOGETHER, HANDS UP"

nothing...repeat
"FEET AND KNEES TOGETHER, HANDS UP"

nothing...repeat
"FEET AND KNEES TOGETHER, HANDS UP"

nothing...repeat

"Fine, ready,... and,... flare. Ok, gather up your parachute and get the heck off the runway"

You know the radio is working because the did the earlier stuff you asked them, but down low.....

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[JohnMitchell 14]

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[

"Fine, ready,... and,... flare. Ok, gather up your parachute and get the heck off the runway"

[GreenMachine 0]

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Most other sports (i.e. judo) teach the opposite of PLF.

RiggerRob, sorry man but I just don't get this comment...

I agree that most people are hard wired to use intuitive movements that they think will prevent injury but every sport I played used physics.
For example: when falling from bicycles, motorcycles, and skateboards it is better to roll with it. When being taken down on the mat by someone with more skill rolling with it hurts less. Breakdancing is made possible by not trying to contest the ground.

Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM

[pilatus_p 0]

How about showing them my 'advert for a PLF' ?

When I was training my AFF, loads of us were coming down in big heaps. There were sore ankles and knees everywhere, even landing in thick dirt.

I had been doing either combat roll type landings (which just twists the canopy) and a couple failed run-out to fall over landings. I had screwed my landing pattern after the T was changed whilst we were in the plane, and I ended up in the wrong holding area. Figuring this out at around 1000 feet, I figured it best not to try to make it over the other side of the field and risk a low turn.

So on a fast approach into wind I suddenly remembered the PLF ... pulled my legs together, set up the 45 degree angle to my direction, flared as hard as I could and did a perfect PLF.

I was pretty sure I was gonna mangle myself or at least end up with a sprint finish - but the PLF really worked and I ended up in a nice comfy heap instead of a painful one.

The combat rolls also work awesomely, but piss the packers right off.

Its easier to do legs together with a comfy harness. Some harnesses CHAFE. But then so does a broken ankle ...

Ross

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm

[jdpml 0]

Because you are demonstrating fully clothed.
Try one week the other way and see if they pay attention.
If nothing else the staff at the DZ will be able to do a better plf,(not that they would watch !!!!!)
See you Wednesday.

[lauras 0]

Thanks all for your suggestions & thoughts. I'll try anything at this point except, PAUL, the all-nude PLF instruction that you're busy envisioning. Well, I suppose it would make a good illustration of contact points!

See you tomorrow.

[lauras 0]

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You know the radio is working because the did the earlier stuff you asked them, but down low.....

I'm convinced that's one of the mysteries of life... the radio that suddenly doesn't work under 500'.

[teason 0]

Well, you see the Earth generates ley lines lines that produce 3 terrawatts of etheric magnetism that can interfer with RF transmisions.

Either that or that fucked up, looked down and got overwelmed.

Naw, easier to blame the radio.

We video tape all FJC landings. They always blame the instructor first ("he forgot to tell me to flare") until they see the video and hear him clearly say flare (we get the camera person to cary a radio as well).

At that point, it must be the radio
Necer mind that you can see the student's head bent down at the neck!

Video actully protects you if a student blames the radio controller....
...and they often do.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[rehmwa 2]

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Video actully protects you .

I love it when a student pays for freefall video for AFF..... They think it'll be cool. But it's really just proof of how bad they goofed up and they can't argue it.

Just saw one on Sunday - the mainside gave 5 "PULL" signals, right in front of the student's face - (steady, held there for a good second each time). Then he pulled for the student.

This video will not be the student's favorite a year from now. But at least he can't say he didn't get any helpful hints at the bottom of the dive.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Reginald 0]

I’m amazed that otherwise intelligent people can’t remember their left hand from their right! Why, oh, why do they, in a COA, look to the left and say “check right” and then look to the right and say “check left”????

I think it all comes down to some mental process whereby some people, when doing new things, overly focus on one small part of the task at hand and their brain shuts down to everything else. Repetition helps mitigate the issue but never eliminates it.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[bch7773 0]

We've started requiring our students to PLF their first jump, no matter how softly they land. It seems to have really helped, because students who are off radio, seem to PLF now when they have a bad flare, instead of plowing in.

if someone on their first jump stands up the landing, we scream at them to PLF and fall down.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[rasmack 0]

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...Most other sports (i.e. judo) teach the opposite of PLF.

Ehm... I've been training martial arts for 17 years, and I can promise you that I don't teach people to stick out their hands.

Quite to the contrary my experience came in quite handy one day as a student, where my legstraps apparently weren't tightened the same. I decided at some point to stop figting to get the parachute into the wind and just take the cross wind. 14 years of breakfalls made damn sure that I just took the fall all along the side of my body. Although my instructor wasn't too impressed with my canopy handling skills the PLF was picture perfect.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Icon134 0]

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...Most other sports (i.e. judo) teach the opposite of PLF.

Ehm... I've been training martial arts for 17 years, and I can promise you that I don't teach people to stick out their hands.

yeah... in fact judo is one of the primary reasons I do know how to do a PLF (the application may be different but the principle is the same.)

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[faulknerwn 37]

That reminds me of my first jump 13 years ago. I was a 110 lb girl jumping a "small" 250 main, and was told to PLF my first jump. I actually just kinda landed on my ass, and after landing, I remembered I was supposed to have PLF'ed so I rolled :-) My instructor gave me (funny) shit over the radio after that! I just had completely forgot until I was already down!


It was actually pretty cuz i was well-landed before I remembered to roll :-)

[JohnMitchell 14]

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if someone on their first jump stands up the landing, we scream at them to PLF and fall down.

Just like Airborne!

[popsjumper 2]

Oh hell, Laura...you've touched on one of my BIGGEST pet peeves and I too, am at a loss.

I actually told one young lady that I was going to plant a foot in her ass if she did the tandem-butt-slide on landing. When she returned to the hangar she walked over to me and presented her butt...yes, I kicked it.

I'm just sick of seeing people hurt themselves like that.

Maybe Chuck has a clue as Bigun suggests. I'm gonna talk to him.


PS: Can you guys stay on topic and help out here without getting distracted with radio issues, please?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Trae 1]

in reply to "We've started requiring our students to PLF their first jump, no matter how softly they land. It seems to have really helped, because students who are off radio, seem to PLF now when they have a bad flare, instead of plowing in.

if someone on their first jump stands up the landing, we scream at them to PLF and fall down. '
.............................................

Hope you stick with this technique.
Something that really WORKS.

The PLF is one of the fundamental survival skills taught . Its good to see the necessary emphasis given and made a point of fun.
As students are taught to do it then it could be made a requirement to pass the course. eg a PLF on every AFF jump. Some of these would be very funny PLF's

Too often the " try and stand up' factor ends in tears.

Try and fall over ... much better .

[wmw999 2,167]

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We've started requiring our students to PLF their first jump, no matter how softly they land. It seems to have really helped, because students who are off radio, seem to PLF now when they have a bad flare, instead of plowing in.

if someone on their first jump stands up the landing, we scream at them to PLF and fall down.

Back in the bad old days that's what we did, and we had a decent injury (or non-injury rate) for a round DZ. We wouldn't let them try to stand up until they had PLF'd well a couple of times.

That way the PLF is the primary landing technique, and the standup is what you do if things are perfect.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Marisan 0]

Years ago (1/4 of a century) when I used to instruct I initially did a running PLF on concrete to show it could be done. (They never saw the bruises)
Then I taught them how to PLF on the matting.
1/2 way though when they had learnt the basics I made them do a standing PLF on the concrete.
This showed them the mistakes they were making and when they went back on the mats they were very good at tucking the hurt bits away during the roll ensuring a perfect PLF

[yarak 0]

i think at 8000ft the reserve side instructor should wrap 2 rounds of duct tape around their ankles, then yell "PLF MOFO"!!!

just an idea

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.