Spike 0 #1 December 15, 2004 I've sat in on ground school classes with different instructors and seen way more students binned before they get in the air than I've seen students refuse at the door. I think this is a good thing and a tribute to the skill of the instructors. I think binning a student is a difficult choice for an instructor to make. After all everyone in the class wants to jump, don't they? My experience tells me this assumption is incorrect as of the students I've seen binned, all I've ever seen is a look of relief. What factors or observed behaviours do you use when deciding to bin a student? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 December 15, 2004 What do you mean "bin" a student? You mean send them packing, don't let them jump? IMO if the student isn't getting it at the FJC, the instruction is wrong. Everyone should get it, now when the stress happens in real life they may or may not react correctly, but good instructors can help keep that from happening as well.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #3 December 15, 2004 What about confidence issues? If someone is technically competent but has no confidence would you put them out the door? Even if you thought they might crack under pressure?? I don't think any of it is black and white, but I don't think just because someone understands the groundschool means that they are ready to jump... that's the hardest part of instructing IMO. It stops being a technical question and becomes a judgement call... JMO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spike 0 #4 December 15, 2004 Either send them packing or convert them to something else, maybe a tandem. Here's an example, there was a student on a static line FJC and she just couldn't PLF. The course instructor and myself spent about an hour after the other students were done trying to get her to PLF properly. She'd either land forward on her knees or put an arm out if she did roll. The instructor tried several different instruction methods and I learned a lot that day, but she didn't get it. Eventually the instructor said he thought she'd be better doing a tandem. I also saw a student who kept on talking to me during the breaks in the course about how nervous she was. She seemed to do Ok on the FJC but in the door she refused. Came back the following week, did her refresher and spent the next couple of hours looking terrified but this time she did two reasonable jumps. The last thing I want to do is put someone out who just isn't up to it. I know how I'd make that decision, but I'm interested in what signs anyone else uses to make that decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #5 December 15, 2004 QuoteEveryone should get it hehe, I love remembering this story. Last season we had this one guy turn up to our club wanting us to take him for his first S/L jump. He told us how he'd been practising for his parachute jump by jumping off his bed. But not straight off his bed first attempt mind... no that would have been too dangerous. He started off jumping from off the top of a single brick, working his way up to the sofa, then a chair. Only then did he feel ready to practise from his bed. He really was an odd fellow. He once asked why there were so many foreigners in the club. Then declared that my girlfriend was Russian, despite her being as English as they come, complaining that he didn't trust her because he was convinced she was a spy. I mean this guy was seriously weird! Always in a parker, even in a hot pub… slurred speech… just didn’t, y’know – look “right”. I know there are more gems about this guy that I can’t recall right now. Definitely several tools short of a set. I never did think he was going to have a hope in hell of completing an S/L jump... but then we're not there to make that kind of call and duly packed him off to his instructors. He failed his written test by a looong way. I mean... this test is damned idiot proof. That and his general poor performance throughout the course the DZ grounded him. I can’t envisage a training method that could have got this guy safely into the air. We even highlighted our concerns with the (incredibly experienced (D68)) instructor before the start of the course so he could give him extra help… still no good. To their immense credit though the DZ offered to give him a tandem out of what he'd paid for his S/L jump. Mucho thanks to the DZ for that given they'd put all that wasted effort into him before giving him essentially a significantly discounted tandem when they could have simply sent him packing. My point is… no training method could have made this guy safe. He simply didn’t belong in the sport. I wonder how many more such weirdo’s I’ll see. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydog 2 #6 December 15, 2004 Quote IMO if the student isn't getting it at the FJC, the instruction is wrong. Whoa, that's a very bold statement. In all the time I have taught static line FJC's I have only ever binned 2 students, and that only after handing them over other instructors to re-assess them. I am aware that everyone does not learn in the same way and that my methods of instruction, in those cases, may not have been for them. In both cases, because they did not "get" how to and when to go through their emergency procedures, and after further instruction, I removed them from the static line FJC. Remember you can do everything right, employ all the right learning tactics, and still some people wont get it. To say it is because the instruction is wrong is in itself wrong. BrynJourney not destination..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scooterskydives 0 #7 December 15, 2004 QuoteWhat do you mean "bin" a student? You mean send them packing, don't let them jump? IMO if the student isn't getting it at the FJC, the instruction is wrong. Everyone should get it, now when the stress happens in real life they may or may not react correctly, but good instructors can help keep that from happening as well. I have to disagree with you there. sure they will probally be alright in freefall because the instructors are there, but once they pull...they're on there own..no matter how well you taught them, every decision they make is there own. I've had a time when the student could not get the emergency procedures right, they kept wanting to fire reserve into malfunctions. Also had times when student kept getting left and right wrong. "When stress happens in real life they may or may not react correctly..." We are not riding bicycles or snow skiing/boarding, we are jumping out of airplanes high above the ground and us as instructors need to be able to make the decision weather or not our students are ready and competant because if they don't react correctly it could mean the difference between life or death.If God wanted man to stay on the ground. He would of put roots on them instead of feet. loving life GO-N-UP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foggy 0 #8 December 15, 2004 QuoteIMO if the student isn't getting it at the FJC, the instruction is wrong. Everyone should get it I have to respectively disagree. Particularly with AFF students. There is a fine line between someone having difficulty absorbing the info and someone not getting it at all. What I have done in the past is get my chief instructor involved and have them work one on one while I continue with the other students. After which, some have done a tandem instead. We recently had guy who needed a LOT more work, successfully get his A license I have also had the student that picked everything up great from first thing, through ground prep to exit and still got taken for a ride. Foggy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spike 0 #9 December 15, 2004 QuoteWe recently had guy who needed a LOT more work, successfully get his A license I have also had the student that picked everything up great from first thing, through ground prep to exit and still got taken for a ride. Sounds like spotting the "challenged/ing" student before they get in the air is tough. That being the case, do you err on caution, or go for it and deal with it when it goes pear shaped? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #10 December 15, 2004 QuoteIMO if the student isn't getting it at the FJC, the instruction is wrong. Everyone should get it, now when the stress happens in real life they may or may not react correctly, but good instructors can help keep that from happening as well. Stick around Dave. You'll find that this statement is incorrect. There ARE some that just don't GET it. Even with proper instruction. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djmarvin 2 #11 December 15, 2004 QuoteIMO if the student isn't getting it at the FJC, the instruction is wrong. Everyone should get it, now when the stress happens in real life they may or may not react correctly, but good instructors can help keep that from happening as well. Not everyone will get it. Even the best FJC instructor will run across a student that just doesn't pay enough attention (I.E. macho know it alls) or just aren't all "there" . Sometimes you just have to realize that the student is not ready (for whatever reason) to make an AFF skydive and take them on a tandem instead. But this is all my stupid opinion. I refuse to listen to a word I say, shoud you? DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #12 December 16, 2004 Total bullshit guys.....if the student doesn't get it....either the instructor isn't doing his job, or the training syllabus isn't right, or the equipment isn't suitable for use by first jumpers........ Take the point about not being able to do a PLF........ Why do you need to teach PLF's????.....there is no reason to teach PLF's to first jumpers AT ALL.....EVER..... The only student I ever made do a tandem was 78 years old and senile....but 19 of his 70 year plus mates did perfect solo's...... If you "bin" a student then you are a crap instructor....... If the student hasn't learnt.....then the teacher hasn't taught........end of story....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydog 2 #13 December 16, 2004 Quote If you "bin" a student then you are a crap instructor....... If the student hasn't learnt.....then the teacher hasn't taught........end of story.... Sorry but that's plain bollox. Its like saying everyone can be taught and understand quantum mechanics. If that were the case everyone would be eligible to go to university, which isnt the case. That's because there are people out there who just dont "get" it. The people I binned didnt get their EP's, even after more instruction from other instructors. So your saying we should bring in other instructors, from wherever, until they "may" eventually "get" it? If thats the case then I must be a crap instructor. Suppose it doesnt count the people who have said "if it wasnt for you I would never have jumped"? And these far outweigh the students I have binned. Instead of saying we are all crap then tell us how you would correct the problems of a student who couldn't comprehend what a malfunction was or how to carry out their EP's. BrynJourney not destination..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foggy 0 #14 December 16, 2004 Quote Total bullshit guys.....if the student doesn't get it....either the instructor isn't doing his job........ Respectfully disagree Quote If you "bin" a student then you are a crap instructor.... Not crap but definitely aware of my limitations which is why I defer to my Chief Instructor or one of my peers with a "problem child" Quote If the student hasn't learnt.....then the teacher hasn't taught........end of story.... Skydiving is not for everybody. Not everybody gets it. I believe one of my responsibilities as an instructor is to recognise when someone needs more time in a particular subject area as opposed to someone who needs to be directed to the local bowling alley. Sometimes this is easy like when I had one guy decide to strip down to the waist during my equipment lesson and debate the time taken from cutaway to reserve pull during malfunctions, "but I thought it was about freefall". Other times are difficult. I had a guy whom the main side Inst and myself had to scrape off the ceiling of the Otter at two minutes to jump run and I hoped never to see him again! Signed off his A license two months later I was a problem student (ask Steve Murphy, George Campbell, Dave Ruffell) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
djmarvin 2 #15 December 16, 2004 Quote Total bullshit guys.....if the student doesn't get it....either the instructor isn't doing his job, or the training syllabus isn't right, or the equipment isn't suitable for use by first jumpers........ Take the point about not being able to do a PLF........ Why do you need to teach PLF's????.....there is no reason to teach PLF's to first jumpers AT ALL.....EVER..... The only student I ever made do a tandem was 78 years old and senile....but 19 of his 70 year plus mates did perfect solo's...... If you "bin" a student then you are a crap instructor....... If the student hasn't learnt.....then the teacher hasn't taught........end of story.... I would agree if it was common. However there is a time and place. I have not held a student back yet, I have spent extra time. However as you state there are exceptions to the rule (your 78 year old senile man). I believe that other instructors need to realize that the time and person comes along so often. According to your own comment you are a crap instructor for "binning" that person. I don't believe this however. You simply found that time and person. The point to my rambling is do everything you can to help that person into the air on a solo, but realize once in a great while you will run into someone who is just better off doing a tandem. In my relatively low number of FJC students (few hundred) I have never held a student back nor had one back out in the door. for what its worth DJ Marvin AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E http://www.theratingscenter.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #16 December 16, 2004 For everyone that doesn't understand the point of my post: Everyone should be able to recieve some sort of instruction in skydiving. Not everyone should necissarily do an AFF or a static line jump. Some should simply stick to a single tandem and then call it a day. The point is, if the student can't understand the basics, then the instructor has some how seriously screwed up. Either being lazy and not taking the time needed for the student. Recognizing that someone may not be suitable for AFF or SL/IAD is up to those instructors, but that doesn't mean they can't do a working type skydive and learn about skydiving. Hell, I've had students that it took me over 30 minutes to explain what they were going to do on a tandem. That was a non-working tandem, simply go out, arch and smile for the camera. Sure, dumb as a fucking brick, but they were still able to recieve some instruction and go make a skydive. THAT is why there are different ways to experience this sport and most students shouldn't be sent packing due to not understanding the instruction. It just takes a little dedication from the instructor staff. I was NOT implying that anyone and everyone could complete AFF/get a license, etc. Simply that they could do A skydive.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foggy 0 #17 December 16, 2004 QuoteEveryone should be able to recieve some sort of instruction in skydiving. Not everyone should necissarily do an AFF or a static line jump. Some should simply stick to a single tandem and then call it a day. Agreed QuoteThe point is, if the student can't understand the basics, then the instructor has some how seriously screwed up. Either being lazy and not taking the time needed for the student. Recognizing that someone may not be suitable for AFF or SL/IAD is up to those instructors, but that doesn't mean they can't do a working type skydive and learn about skydiving. Hell, I've had students that it took me over 30 minutes to explain what they were going to do on a tandem. I had one student all to myself to teach the entire FJC midweek with no time constraints. We completed the training including dive flow but I was not confident in his abilities to go solo as he was not getting canopy control in any shape or form. His EPs were ok but he was not confident about his canopy flight. I suggested a "working" tandem where he did essentially the level 1 dive flow. On the skydive he did not check his altitude despite prompts from the TI, no practice touches, no attempt to pull. He gave no input to the TI for the canopy flight QuoteThat was a non-working tandem, simply go out, arch and smile for the camera. Sure, dumb as a fucking brick, but they were still able to recieve some instruction and go make a skydive. agreed on the brick comment but would you want to take that brick on an AFF level 1? QuoteTHAT is why there are different ways to experience this sport and most students shouldn't be sent packing due to not understanding the instruction. It just takes a little dedication from the instructor staff. I was NOT implying that anyone and everyone could complete AFF/get a license, etc. Simply that they could do A skydive. and that is the major difference between doing AFF, S/L as opposed to Tandem in my personal opinion. The tandem option allows the student to opt for the "ride" but also allows more interaction between the instructor and student, particularly in the canopy flight. As an AFFI/ SLI I have to "let go". Foggy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #18 December 16, 2004 Dave, In the 54 AFF FJCs I taught this year there were two students who didn't get it. I recommended training tandems for both. One I took on a Cat. A tandem. After his toilet seat exit I pitched the drogue. He waited a long time to do a COA, then started looking around. I gave him the practice pull signal and he deployed us around 9 grand. After I checked the canopy I gave him the toggles to do it himself. It was challenging if anything, then he threw up. He was the only student in that 4 hour FJC. The other guy's class had 3 students and he was the only one that did the training tandem under my recommendation. The instructor that took him up reported that he should take up bowling. The other two are now on Cat. E jumps. How did I screw up? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #19 December 16, 2004 Quote Take the point about not being able to do a PLF........ Why do you need to teach PLF's????.....there is no reason to teach PLF's to first jumpers AT ALL.....EVER..... ummm... maybe you need to teach PLFs so that they don't break their ankles/wrists/legs when they crash and burn on their first landing? I used PLFs in anger enough to know that I need them.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #20 December 16, 2004 I disagree with Aggie Dave. Not all students are bright enough to grasp skydiving. Some are not even bright enough to do a decent tandem! A decade ago I lost count of how many tandem students reverse arched on exit. 30% of my tandem students are not bright enough to exit any airplane alone. Screening is an important task for every static-line/IAD/AFF instructor. Take my sleep-deprived student who worked all night, took the train out to the DZ, then wondered why he was not "getting it" in class. I did not let him jump. When he returned a week (and a decent night's sleep) later, he grasped all the material in the classroom and did a decent static-line jump. Or how about the two "fat-bottomed-girls" who did not have enough leg muscle to lift their feet off the step of the Cessna? Or how about the timid girl who kept asking the FJC instructor - after every explanation of malfunction drills - "But if I don't pull the handles I'll still be okay?" At which point Andrew replied "Let me introduce you to Rob, who is our best tandem instructor, yada, yada" If the student has difficulty understanding the language of instruction, then maybe they should do a tandem instead. For example, I have taught the FJC in english and french, but will not even pretend to be able to teach the FJC in any other language. If students do not understand english or french, they have two options: go tandem or go home. The bottom line is that not all students are bright enough, brave enough, strong enough, flexible enough, etc. to be allowed to exit an airplane by themselves. FJC instructors can do everyone a big favor by "scrubbing" the dumbest 1% out of the first jump course. Some of those 1% might enjoy a tandem, but some days the FJC instructor must ask himself how much he hates the tandem instructors. Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scooterskydives 0 #21 December 16, 2004 Quoteor the training syllabus isn't right, hhmmmm, the syllabus isn't right???? QuoteWhy do you need to teach PLF's????.....there is no reason to teach PLF's to first jumpers AT ALL.....EVER..... Well, the "syllabus" say's right there in black and white in SIMs section 4-3 E that you need to teach PLF's. I highly doubt thats wrong. I hate to think if you ever had a student that couldn't understand things, you'd let them jump. And you can continue to have your opions about instructors, however, I'll continue to make my judgement call as a instructor. I've had students that I suggest tandems as first jumps to in the past, and I'm sure I'll have them in the furture. I don't think that makes me a bad instructor, I think it takes a good instructor to be able to spot a student like that.If God wanted man to stay on the ground. He would of put roots on them instead of feet. loving life GO-N-UP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #22 December 16, 2004 Well, I stopped teaching students PLF's in 1984....and do you know something interesting???......the injury rate dropped by 80%..... It is much easier, quicker and SIMPLER to teach students to simply keep their legs, knees and feet hard together right thru the landing...... And I've taught students with no English at all to jump quite safely..sometimes classes with Japanese, Swedes, French, Israelis and Germans all together...... What did I do???...I made the training very simple, cut out ALL unnecessary bullshit....used lots of diagrams and demonstrations, had the best gear, and best aircraft possible.....amd they were all static line trained...... AFF is the most complicated and inefficient way of training solo jumpers imaginable.......and does not turn out well rounded skydivers AT ALL.....witness the poor canopy skills and the number of accidents under perfectly good canopies.....the students are overloaded, and if the instruction is a bit deficient as well then you are creating problems.... I've trained over 10,000 first jumpers, so I do have a slight idea of what works and what doesn't....also I've trained a hell of a lot of JM's and Instructors..... Also my degree happens to be in Education....so I know a bit about teaching and learning practices...... Just because its "in the manual" doesn't make it right....PLF's were in the manual I first used...but concrete experience meant we changed that manual......... I stand by everything I say......and I have yet to see a reasonable argument so far in this discussion that would change my mind.... Bring on something I can't dispute!!!...My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fab 0 #23 December 16, 2004 "It is much easier, quicker and SIMPLER to teach students to simply keep their legs, knees and feet hard together right thru the landing......" If you also tell them not to break their fall with their arms this will come very close to a PLF, right? At least in my book I am curious what you call unnecessary bullshit. Can you give some examples? "AFF is the most complicated and inefficient way of training solo jumpers imaginable.......and does not turn out well rounded skydivers AT ALL.....witness the poor canopy skills and the number of accidents under perfectly good canopies.....the students are overloaded, and if the instruction is a bit deficient as well then you are creating problems...." I don't have 4000 jumps and am obviously no instructor but I do not see why static-liners would have better canopy skills. I have watched a lot of static-liners and AFF'ers land and didn't see any difference in canopy-control skills. Could be that we just have excellent instructors of course. I don't believe that AFF is such an inefficient way of training. Expensive ..yes, but I think it is a safer and easier way to learn how to skydive. Safer because two instructors will (hopefully) ensure that you pull stable and easier because you have direct feedback/corrections if you do something wrong. I would say this make AFF more efficient then static-line. I have seen two entanglments from static-liners who left the plane unstable. One of them cut way but ended up in a two out with his feet got up in the lines. Both canopies were spinning around eachother and he was damn lucky both chutes stayed inflated and he landed that soft. Just my 2 cents from a newbie perspective... _______________________________________ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Travman 6 #24 December 16, 2004 The first thing my instructor said on my FJC was "Right now you are all doing tandems tomorrow, unless you can prove otherwise" or something along those lines." But we all got through the course fine and did normal AFF jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #25 December 16, 2004 Quote Take the point about not being able to do a PLF........ Why do you need to teach PLF's????.....there is no reason to teach PLF's to first jumpers AT ALL.....EVER..... [sarcasm] yeah so if they have a canopy problem, or the radio goes dead, or they just don't listen to the radio and they land on a building or in a tree, they should just stick out their arms and legs and let their bones break [\sarcasm] now do most first jumpers need to PLF? no... but we train students for the worst. saying that a first jumper would never ever have to use PLFs is crap. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
