Tandem Instructor Poll: Instructor Helmets

[Tonto 1]

And you think that jumping in those conditions is a helmet issue?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[MikeTJumps 4]

Well, if we had known about the winds exceeding our personal limitations before we left the aircraft, we wouldn't have jumped. Unfortunately, in this non-perfect world, we didn't know about that until we were under canopy and close to the ground.

So, back to the original premesis: Wearing protection when you don't know you'll need it is far better than not wearing it when you will! (Seems like that applies to a whole lot of activities now, doesn't it?!)

Mike Turoff
Instructor Examiner, USPA
Co-author of Parachuting, The Skydiver's Handbook

[bclark 0]

I wear a frap hat when doing tandems. 450 tandems out of a variety of aircraft (182, 207, beech 18, T-bone, DC-3, Caravan) Never had a need for a hard helmet yet. No banging my head in the plane, getting head butted by students, riser slaps, bad landings.

[pullhigh 0]

I wear a hard hat, open face, freefly helmet. ALWAYS on tandem jumps!

[Falko 0]

Quote

I do wear gloves though, and shoes, and don't jump in shorts or a T-shirt cos of frommeling a couple of swoops... so maybe if I hit my head on something and it didn't kill me... I'd wear a helmet after that.

... that is, if your carer manages to get it on your head, while you're driveling on his white pants.

No offense!
Brain damage sucks and in many cases could easily have been avoided by wearing a helmet, or at least a frap hat. I've seen and cared for helpless people, believe me it SUCKS being in a condition like this.
It was stunning how a "simple" motorbike accident could turn a young 24 year old into a helpless child for the rest of his life.

Please use a helmet or similar. Also to be an example for students. Anything is better than nothing, please give it a thought, 4000 jumps or not.

My 2-non-instructor-cents.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[riggerrob 558]

... so I'm thinking about a half-shell. Does anyone know how well they hold up to freefall?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Bad idea as they provide zero protection from riser slap.
Would you like to see pictures of Steve's ear before or after they sewed it back on.
I may have worn a leather hat for my first few hundred tandems, but one too many riser slaps made me trade it for a Pro-Tec.
I tried wearing a Bonehead HAVOK full-face but could not see what my student was doing, so went back to the Pro-Tec. Hey! The price was right!
Now that Bonehead has introduced their latest Rat Hat, I want one of those shiny toys: open-faced with some jaw protection.

[Tonto 1]

Right now a lot of men my age pay good money to be treated like a helpless child.

I'm no longer a Tandem Master.
I still don't wear a helmet.
I don't smoke though,
or drink to excess,
and I may just go a lifetime without braining myself too. Maybe. If I'm lucky. I tell you what. After I'm 80, I'll wear a helmet - even on solos.

Deal?

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[peek 20]

I use a ProTec for most jumps, so there it is, ready to grab for every Tandem. Frappe Hat on the student, always.


Warning: Thread hijack in progress!

Is there anyone that can justify not having head protection of _some_ kind on their student?

[crutch 0]

Quote

Is there anyone that can justify not having head protection of _some_ kind on their student?

Simply, why? I cannot think of any instance a student wearing head protection is going to help. I would venture to say that almost all head injuries are more likely neck related and had nothing to do with wearing a helmet.

I don't wear a helmet, personal choice. I have yet to see or hear of an instance that would justify me changing my position. If you are going to bang your head on the airplane getting out or for that matter exiting with a student, you need to rethink being a TM.

If you are scared, just say you are scared and don't hide behind anything!

blue skies,

art

[skydiverton 0]

Normally don't use helmets. Nothing or sometimes a wrap-head (because of the noise).
Students generally do not wear helmets in holland. No requirement and I would not know what insuries will be prevented with it. It is a disadvantage for your students because it is harder to hear wath you are saying under the canopy.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit,
Especially when you are jumping a sport rig

[skytribe 16]

A new instructor last year was doing the 270 backloop out of the skyvan and the student slowed right up at the edge . Didn't step out far enough and during the back rotation smacked the back of his head on the tailgate edge.

Split the back of his head open and the back of the students head smack him in the face causing a nose bleed.

Although you may say "this will never happen to me". You just never know. Also aircraft emergency landings. Head protection may provide a degree of protection in this unlikely evernt.

Again we dont anticpate this situation but it has been known to occur and any protection is better than none.

Is a helmet not cool enough for you or your passenger. Is it not you responsibility to sufficiently educate and protect yourself and your student (who has no idea what is normal and acceptable on there first jumps).

[jdfreefly 1]

Spoty,

If this was me you were referring to, this is not what happened.

I was swinging out from the bar at the top of the skyvan. I had gotten into this habbit and it is a terrible thing to do in that airplane. What happened on the jump in question was that I swung up, not out. I was not trying to do a back loop from the door.

As a result, I came down and caught the back of the rig on the edge of the door. The rig was pushed up my back and pushed my face into the students head.

The main injury was from my face hitting her head. There was no trauma to the back of my head. I have been in a few bar fights and never have I been hit in the face so hard. I nearly blacked out, my nose was broken and blood was gushing everywhere, it felt like I was going to black out.

A helmet would have done nothing to stop this or make it less scary. That was the scariest thing that has ever happened to me since I entered the world of skydiving...bar none.

Just wanted to get the facts straight.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[TALONSKY 0]

Quote

Quote

Is there anyone that can justify not having head protection of _some_ kind on their student?

Simply, why? I cannot think of any instance a student wearing head protection is going to help. I would venture to say that almost all head injuries are more likely neck related and had nothing to do with wearing a helmet.

I don't wear a helmet, personal choice. I have yet to see or hear of an instance that would justify me changing my position. If you are going to bang your head on the airplane getting out or for that matter exiting with a student, you need to rethink being a TM.

If you are scared, just say you are scared and don't hide behind anything!

I can think of one simple reason to put a frappe hat on a student, my protection. Grated that the frappe hat will not absorb much but if I had to choose between getting hit by a students bare head or a students head in a frappe hat I will always choose a frappe hat. I have not personally been head butted by a student but I have talked to a few instructors that have lost front teeth that way.
Kirk

[JJohnson 0]

Students should always be in a helmet, tandem students in a frap hat. Why? Cause first jump students don't know their way around our enviroment. They are prone to walking into the door bar on the Otter, even on the mock-up. I keep them out of hard hats cause I don't want to be head-butted by one.

JJ

"Call me Darth Balls"

[JohnMitchell 14]

I've got about 750 tandems over 10 years. I first wore a frap hat, but moved to a hard helmet later. Most bumps come in the doorway with stiff legged passengers. Nice to have a hard hat. My passengers wear a frap hat, but from reading the stories, I think we need to sew a big, fat pad or pillow in the back of those frap hats to save our instructors' noses.

[jdfreefly 1]

Replying to my own post after talking with Spotty this weekend.

The point of his post was that to say, "..... will never happen to me.." in the world of skydiving, is just a bad idea.

I agree with that. If you have your own reasons for not wearing a helmet, fine. If you know the risks and willingly take them...again, that is fine. But to say you don't need one because you can't possibly hit your head....not a good idea in my opinion.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[skytribe 16]

This was the the main point I was trying to convey in the previous posting. I was there at the time of the incident - I was about 4 feet behind waiting to exit last.

Saying I'm a good jumper and it wont happen to me so I dont need a helmet is a sad delusion. We are jumping with people that have never done this before and dont know how they are going to respond until we are there. We are in an unpredictable environment with aircraft, winds etc.

It is our responsibility to protect ourselves and them. If that means wearing a hat because something unexpected may occur then so biet. I can't think of any incidents with a tandem instructor and passenger wearing helmets that has caused an incident but can think of a few with hair and ears being damaged easily.

I'm not going to stand and chastise those that dont but personally I do wear one and believe that I'm also setting an example to the new jumpers that safety is important - a helmet is part of that philosophy,

[peek 20]

G.P.
Is there anyone that can justify not having head protection of _some_ kind on their student?

A.S.
Simply, why? I cannot think of any instance a student wearing head protection is going to help. I would venture to say that almost all head injuries are more likely neck related and had nothing to do with wearing a helmet.

G.P.
I'm thinking landing incidents too. I don't often get my head near anything on exit, but I have gotten it uncomfortably close to the ground when the wind picked up and the shaggers couldn't run fast enough.

Having head protection for even something as minor as rolling over and rubbing one's head across the grass is worth it to me.

It's just too easy to pick one up and throw it on your head.

I generally think that our students deserve all the training and safety equipment that we can give them.

[crutch 0]

Quote

I don't often get my head near anything on exit, but I have gotten it uncomfortably close to the ground when the wind picked up and the shaggers couldn't run fast enough.

Why are you jumping in winds so high that you need shaggers to keep from being "thumped" on the ground? No excuses here, if you are going to take students in conditions that are above your ability to "care" for them, maybe you should rethink why you are a tandem master!

blue skies,

art

[peek 20]

After seeing these comments to my posts:

1. If you are going to bang your head on the airplane getting out or for that matter exiting with a student, you need to rethink being a TM.

2. ... if you are going to take students in conditions that are above your ability to "care" for them, maybe you should rethink why you are a tandem master!

.. I am going to assume that you are having a bad week and are angry about something.

Please feel free to call me and discuss this, because I am going to stop now. (800) 435-1975

P.S. I am not a Tandem "Master". I am a Tandem Instructor.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

A new instructor last year was doing the 270 backloop out of the skyvan and the student slowed right up at the edge . Didn't step out far enough and during the back rotation smacked the back of his head on the tailgate edge.

Split the back of his head open and the back of the students head smack him in the face causing a nose bleed.

Quote

I was swinging out from the bar at the top of the skyvan. I had gotten into this habbit and it is a terrible thing to do in that airplane. What happened on the jump in question was that I swung up, not out. I was not trying to do a back loop from the door.

As a result, I came down and caught the back of the rig on the edge of the door. The rig was pushed up my back and pushed my face into the students head.

Can you give me some clarification on the Skyvan exits described in these two posts?

One exit appears to be 'TM faces aft. TM hangs onto the floater bar then swings out towards the tail and releases the bar. Once in freefall the TM turns into the relative wind - by barrel roll (I presume).'

One exit appears to be 'TM faces aft. TM hangs onto the floater bar then swings out towards the tail, releases the bar and tucks to initiate a backloop. After the BL, the TM turns into the relative wind.'

Are these descriptions accurate?

TIA

As to the contact with the plane jump - Do I understand this correctly? A TM gets knocked in the head by the passenger's head hard enough to cause a bloody nose (almost knocking him out) as he falls away with a tandem passenger. The head-to-head contact was precipitated by either the rig catching the floor of the Skyvan or the TM head hitting the Skyvan floor during the exit.
Please clarify this for me. It is not clear if these were two different jumps or the same one with different descriptions.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[jdfreefly 1]

They are the same incident. Spotty was recalling it as best he could and using it as an example of why a helmet might be a good idea.

I was attempting to exit by swinging from the floater bar out but did not clear the door. As a result the bottom of the rig hit as both the student and I were begining to arch. The rig was pushed up my back and slammed me in the back of the head. My head was then thrust into the students head. My nose was broken and bleeding and I believe I received a mild concusion.

They say every tandem master has their one story. This was mine. I took it very seriously and considered quiting tandems. I was quite lucky that it was not worse. I don't mind telling the story, and I tell it often, because it is a great oportunity for others to learn from.

I did some things right and some things wrong. I was careless in allowing the contact with the door.

I hope this clears it up for you.

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

I was attempting to exit by swinging from the floater bar out but did not clear the door. As a result the bottom of the rig hit as both the student and I were begining to arch. The rig was pushed up my back and slammed me in the back of the head. My head was then thrust into the students head. My nose was broken and bleeding and I believe I received a mild concusion.

I meant what was the exit supposed to be like if it was pulled off successfully?
Sounds like you go out back to the relative wind and then turn into the relative wind by barrel roll. Is that what was supposed to happen?

Quote

They say every tandem master has their one story. This was mine. I took it very seriously and considered quiting tandems. I was quite lucky that it was not worse. I don't mind telling the story, and I tell it often, because it is a great oportunity for others to learn from.

I'd like to learn why you were doing this exit?
Did you learn it in your certification course?
Did other TMs also do it or was it something you decided to try?
Was this jump the first time you tried the exit or had you done it successfully before?
What is your DZ's policy on this type of exit now?

Thanks.
.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[slotperfect 7]

This exit is called a 270 backloop. The preferred tachnique is to get all the way to the edge, agressively walk straight off, and exit almost standing straight up with arms out to the side for stabilization. Once the relative wind hits the legs and starts to flip the pair backwards, the Tandem Instructor goes with the flow, leaning back to continue to backloop, which finishes with the pair in the same orientation on the hill as if they had done a diving exit. The rotation is 270 degrees.

The key to this exit is getting way out and not leaning back too soon. Tall Ti's need to have enough room to stand up . . . it's hard to get way out when you're crunched down. I have found the Skyvan to be the easiest aircraft for me to do this exit out of.

jdfreefly, thanks for sharing your experience with us!

Arrive Safely

John

[crutch 0]

I am having a great week, how about you? I am just tired of people pushing their views when they don't have any really facts to back them up! Almost all of the student should be wearing a helmet issuses brought up fall back on the tandem "intructor" not doing/being unable to take care of the student that has entrusted themselves into their care. If you need to put a helmet on a student because you jump in high winds, think about it, maybe you shouldn't have gotten on the load in the first place. When someone makes comments like this, they definitely will not be taking any students of mine.

Safety is at the forefront of every jump I make. If you need back-up because you think you may make a mistake? I spend a lot of time in critique of every jump I make, how to improve exits, get the student in a better position for the camera shot, make better landings, how to make it more fun, etc. Someone saying that i am unsafe because I don't have my students wear a helmet, give me a break!

Just me rambling peek, hope you don't mind, but I got into this sport to have fun. I would venture to say anyone who skydives with me on a regular basis will tell you that. By the same token, if you are in the sport for the wrong reasons (because of how the whuffos look at you, to make money etc.), I will be the first to tell you to take up bowling! The day I consider doing tandems a job, you will see a Sigma posted for sale at a very low price!

blue skies,

art