DB Cooper

[Amazon 7]

Why do I get the feeling Knoss and georger and MeyerLouie would be far happier over in the Speakers Corner with their fellow travelers and like minded "I'm rubber you're glue" that passes for intelligence there.

[smokin99 0]

Another look at the Cossey saga courtesy of Miss Vicki....

Interesting excerpts below from here: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/culture/db-cooper-parachute?click=news..........

.....according to the Bureau’s original Cooper case files, many of the lead agents hunting for the hijacker were convinced that Cooper was a master skydiver if he indeed pulled off the jump. Agents were so gung-ho on this theory they went through over 14,000 registration cards for skydivers in the Pacific Northwest. The Bureau even sent undercover agents to a skydiving contest across the border to Canada to look for suspects.
......

.......According to documents that outline his Bureau interviews, Cossey told agents that with only six or seven jumps with an instructor the hijacker could have landed safely in the forests of the Pacific Northwest.
.....

.... Cossey..... was also upset that after all these years, the FBI never returned to the chutes to him. He had packed them in his garage, he told me, manufacturing each of the chutes from spare parts and military surplus.
......

Read more: The Man Who Believed in D.B. Cooper - Esquire
Follow us: @Esquiremag on Twitter | Esquire on Facebook
Visit us at Esquire.com


You know, I don't begrudge Geoffrey Gray at all -- He seems like a nice guy and I enjoyed his book. I actually wish he'd gone into even more detail in his book on the case files, and I'd buy a follow-up.

That said, I'm kind of seeing Bruce's point on this one....I mean I can see, sort of, how they can justify a "citizen's sleuth team" - (even though I wonder about a couple of the team's conclusions - I still appreciate all of their efforts, time, and that they published their work for the rest of us) - but just how does one get special dispensation to pore over the FBI files in order to write a book? Did he go through FOIA channels or did someone slip him in through the back door?

Good for him that he was able to gain access -- if you can get it, go for it -- but it is one of those curious things about this case that make you go hmmmmm.

In other words, FBI...release all of the files for the rest of us peons.

LOL...we might not solve the case, and the chance of conviction is slim to none even if we did, but you could keep this forum going for another 12 years.
Laughing even louder.... on second thought.... that might not be a good argument to make...

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[georger 197]

Quote

Another look at the Cossey saga courtesy of Miss Vicki....

Interesting excerpts below from here: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/culture/db-cooper-parachute?click=news..........

.....according to the Bureau’s original Cooper case files, many of the lead agents hunting for the hijacker were convinced that Cooper was a master skydiver if he indeed pulled off the jump. Agents were so gung-ho on this theory they went through over 14,000 registration cards for skydivers in the Pacific Northwest. The Bureau even sent undercover agents to a skydiving contest across the border to Canada to look for suspects.
......

.......According to documents that outline his Bureau interviews, Cossey told agents that with only six or seven jumps with an instructor the hijacker could have landed safely in the forests of the Pacific Northwest.
.....

.... Cossey..... was also upset that after all these years, the FBI never returned to the chutes to him. He had packed them in his garage, he told me, manufacturing each of the chutes from spare parts and military surplus.
......

Read more: The Man Who Believed in D.B. Cooper - Esquire
Follow us: @Esquiremag on Twitter | Esquire on Facebook
Visit us at Esquire.com


You know, I don't begrudge Geoffrey Gray at all -- He seems like a nice guy and I enjoyed his book. I actually wish he'd gone into even more detail in his book on the case files, and I'd buy a follow-up.

That said, I'm kind of seeing Bruce's point on this one....I mean I can see, sort of, how they can justify a "citizen's sleuth team" - (even though I wonder about a couple of the team's conclusions - I still appreciate all of their efforts, time, and that they published their work for the rest of us) - but just how does one get special dispensation to pore over the FBI files in order to write a book? Did he go through FOIA channels or did someone slip him in through the back door?

Good for him that he was able to gain access -- if you can get it, go for it -- but it is one of those curious things about this case that make you go hmmmmm.

In other words, FBI...release all of the files for the rest of us peons.

LOL...we might not solve the case, and the chance of conviction is slim to none even if we did, but you could keep this forum going for another 12 years.
Laughing even louder.... on second thought.... that might not be a good argument to make...

Cooper ransacked the galley before he left. Its pretty
obvious he planned on having to rely on his own
resources for a while, hiking out. All of which goes to
his thoughts just before bailing ...

Geoff and I compared notes and discussed this at
some length before the publication of his book. There
is more that hasn't been released ...

[Robert99 37]

Blevins writes:

On Geoff Gray: I agree he's one heck of a nice guy. I thought there were two things missing from the book. First, a detailed timeline of the hijacking from the moment Cooper went to the ticket counter and approached the agent (Williams) up to and including the initial search. That would have been good.

R99 replies:

Exactly why would that have been "good"? A "detailed timeline" for a several week period would just be filler for an author who didn't know what he was writing about. If you are interested in that information, it is available online and in print but perhaps not in the "detail" you prefer. So you may have to do some research on your own.

Blevins writes:

Also, I thought he should have taken a stand on who he thought the hijacker could have been. This has been mentioned in reviews at Amazon, that he sort of left that part hanging. The book mostly gets positive reviews, but the negative ones often mention this.

R99 replies:

Blevins, you should not criticize an actual author for being smart enough to keep wild eyed speculation out of his book. You and the other people who are pushing their Cooper "candidates" are just blowing smoke.

I imagine that you are trying to claim that your naming an impossible Cooper candidate gives you a leg up over Gray's book.

And of course, I presume that you and your ringers are the ones making those remarks on Amazon.

Robert99

[BobKnoss 0]

"You know, I don't begrudge Geoffrey Gray at all -- He seems like a nice guy and I enjoyed his book. I actually wish he'd gone into even more detail in his book on the case files, and I'd buy a follow-up."

Absolutely. But if he wrote what he believes he would get sued. Anybody who comes close to speaking the truth will find trouble. Only fabricators are allowed to act as truthsayers. Truthsayers are declared fabricators. Everything is upside down and backwards. It was planned to be that way.

[skyjack71 0]

So and So posted:
Hijacking was in the Portland/Seattle area. Do you have an approximate date when he was in Spokane?

Jo Replies:
YEP! and I have already posted it and the FBI knows I know. Do your own Fricking research.

So and So posted:
Does Spokane put Duane in a chute?

Jo Replies:
Do your own Fricking research - don't forget to research Phil Harris at the same time. Approx age of Weber.

So and so poste:
Two men put Weber in The Dalles in the late fourties.

Jo Replies:
Why don't you make a trip with photos of Duane in hand to the N.W. Don't tell them you are looking for Cooper. Tell them you are trying to trace the background of your grandfather - in my case I used father and/or husband.

So and so posted:
1962 to 1968 - really put the FBI on the burner - they had ZERO!

Jo Replies:
Oh yes you are a good researcher - how many time must information go by you till you get it. Duane Weber did NOT exist 1962 to 1968. That was JOHN COLLINS!

Hardly a parole offer breathing down his neck while he is in AZ,WA and CO pretending to play with Paperlegs and his wife 1962 to 1966 as Johnnie Collins.

Got a good inside Blevin? U ignored the fact and so did the FBI that Duane Weber did NOT exist from 1962 ot 1968.

In fact he existed from 1966 to 1968 only AFTER the fact per the Jefferson records.

So and So posted:
The large sea going Yacht - and the name Meire.

Jo replies:
No comment! That is the only SAFE comment one could make.

So and So stated:
The Salt lake guy could be Ruby!

Jo Replies:
Ruby was DEAD in 1979. Maybe that was his ghost I photo graphed in 1979!

The thread is offers no interest to anyone seeking answers now.
Only decent post was Smoking 99's relaying of Vickies thoughts!

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[Amazon 7]

Quote

"You know, I don't begrudge Geoffrey Gray at all -- He seems like a nice guy and I enjoyed his book. I actually wish he'd gone into even more detail in his book on the case files, and I'd buy a follow-up."

Absolutely. But if he wrote what he believes he would get sued. Anybody who comes close to speaking the truth will find trouble. Only fabricators are allowed to act as truthsayers. Truthsayers are declared fabricators. Everything is upside down and backwards. It was planned to be that way.

Have you discussed this with the walrus.... goo goo ga goob????

[BruceSmith 3]

Greetings All,

Here is an excerpt from my upcoming book (new working title): Sky Thief – A Report on the DB Cooper Hijacking.

Earl Cossey, the controversial rigger and long-time consultant to the FBI on the parachutes used in the DB Cooper skyjacking, was murdered on Tuesday, April 23, 2013.

His body was found days later by his daughter, on Friday, April 26, in his home in Woodinville, Washington. Officials with the King County Sheriff’s Department said that Coss last had contact with his family on Monday, April 22, when he went to a movie with a family member.

The looming question in Cooper World is whether Coss was killed because his credibility had crumbled in the past few years due to the controversy over his claim of ownership of the parachutes used by DB Cooper, and serious challenges to his analysis that Cooper was an inexperienced skydiver who died in his jump.

At the time of this writing it is still unknown what the murder weapon is, who used it and why, but many in Cooper World feel that Cossey may have been deemed a “loose end” by a Norjak puppet master who controls the investigation and wants to keep a cover-up intact.

Sgt Cindi King, the PIO of the KCSD, said that she and her department have discussed the DB Cooper connection with the FBI.

“I have had many calls asking if this case is related to the DB Cooper case,” she told me, adding: “We have NO information that leads us to believe that this case has any relation to the Cooper case.’”

Sgt King did say that Cossey was killed by a blow to the head, but she declined to describe what kind of weapon was used or where Cossey was struck.

“We’re not releasing that kind of information at this time,” she said.

Coss was 71.

Nevertheless, Cossey’s death, even if it was for mundane reasons like interrupting a burglary or an angry ex, has brought intense scrutiny to his actions in the Norjak investigation, which appears increasingly more deceptive. This in turn tarnishes the image of the FBI who had a real but amorphous relationship with Cossey.

Cossey was the de facto technical expert for the FBI in the DB Cooper case on the matter of the parachutes used by the skyjacker, having packed the four chutes that were delivered to the skyjacker as part of a ransom deal.

In addition, Cossey had become an outspoken proponent of the notion that DB Cooper chose an inferior parachute, thus proving himself to be an unskilled skydiver who most likely died during his getaway.

This analysis was incorporated into the FBI narrative that evolved during the mid-stages of the investigation, as the Bureau’s view of Cooper shifted from their initial assessment that the skyjacker was a “master criminal” who beat the system, to an inept fool who panicked and was unable to pull his rip cord.

In examining Cossey’s stature in the Norjak investigation, his most damaging statement was that he was the owner of the back chutes. This claim has come under increasing disbelief as federal documents reveal that the parachutes were owned and delivered to Sea-Tac airport by a Kent pilot named Norman Hayden.

Further, scrutiny of Mr. Cossey’s analysis of the survivability of the Cooper jump and the parachutes the skyjacker used has also come into question as other experts in the field refute Cossey’s view, most notably Mark Metzler. At the 2011 Symposium in Portland, Metzler thoroughly rebuffed Cossey’s claim that the 28-foot military NB-8 was a poor choice, and stated that as a naval pilot emergency rig it most likely would have a canopy designed for a high-speed jet opening. This perspective contrasted sharply with Cossey’s oft-stated contention that Cooper should have chosen the civilian sport chute because it was designed for a softer opening.

Cossey may not have had a formal partnership with the FBI, but he was clearly their go-to-guy for parachute questions. When I asked an agent or the PIO about Cooper and his chutes I would be directed towards Coss.

“That’s the kind of question you should ask Earl Cossey,” PIO Robbie Burroughs told me when I inquired about the Amboy chute.

I wasn’t the only one to call Coss, as he told me that he had been “hammered” by media requests regarding the Amboy chutes.

“I’ve gotten about thirty or forty calls already,” he told me, when I spoke with him in April 2009.

Cossey told me that the Amboy chute was not one that made the ride aboard Flight 305, as it was too large and was a cargo chute.

But he proudly told me that he had spoofed the Oregonian newspaper by telling their reporter the parachute was Cooper’s – thus sparking a five-minute round of hysteria before Cossey retracted what he latter described as an “April Fool’s joke.”

Similarly, when I questioned Cossey about the ownership issue, he became angry, cursed me, and hung up.

Additionally, Cossey had told me conflicting pieces of information over several phone interviews since 2009, such as whether he had provided an NB-8 or an NB-6 parachute, and the exact name of the second, not-used chute. In one instance Cossey called it a “Paradise” and on another he said it was a Pioneer.

When I asked for a clarification on the story that he had stuffed a 28-foot canopy into an NB-6 rather than the larger NB-8 sack, he told me the stuffing story was “pretty much accurate.” He later said that the tightly-packed rig was another reason why this chute – that Cooper allegedly used – was a hard pull.

Along those lines, Cossey has never explained why he modified a pilot’s emergency rig to make it more difficult to use. Cossey had told me and many others that he had re-located the rip cord on the chute and had tucked the handle into a pouch under the right arm-pit, thus making the chute a “double-pull.” This meant that Cooper would need two tugs on the rip cord to successfully deploy the rig – one out of the pouch and a second up and away to free the canopy.

Further, Cossey has never explained – as he has long-claimed – why he sent the two back chutes to Boeing Field first and not Sea-Tac where the skyjacker waited.

Earl also told me that he never discussed the technical aspects of the Cooper jump or the parachutes with the FBI. Yet, that seems to not be true. Special Agent Larry Carr made many posts on the DZ that described his interactions with Cossey.

“I like that guy, I could have talked to him all day but he grew tired of me in about an hour,” Carr wrote on June 12, 2008 about his earlier phone conversation with Cossey.

Carr believed that Cossey owned the chutes and apparently discounted what was in the FBI files. He also maintained that Cossey had put a larger canopy into the smaller NB-6 container.

“…I asked Cossey why he packed a 28-foot canopy in the NB6 and he just shrugged. Kind of like, “it was my chute; I did it because I can.” June 12, 2008.

Carr clearly supported Cossey’s assertion that he owned the chutes and delivered them from his home.

“The NB6 and the Pioneer were Cossey’s chutes, he had them at his house, they weren’t at Seattle Skysports….” (6. 12. 08)

And again:

“The two backpacks came from Cossey, from Cossey’s house.” (6. 14. 08)

Similarly:

“Cooper jumped with a chute that had obviously been modified for one individual, it’s (sic) owner.” (6. 13. 08)

Carr also confirmed that Cossey had told the FBI in writing that one chute was an NB-6.

“In Cossey’s statement to the FBI on 11/26/1971, 4th paragraph “…he described the missing back pack parachute as having a sage green nylon container, model NB6 with sage green nylon harness, which harness has no “D” rings to mount a chest pack. (December 17, 2007)

However, Cossey vigorously and repeatedly told me that he had provided an NB-8 with a 28-foot canopy when I spoke with him a second time in October 2011. He also told me that he didn’t know how the NB-6 story got started, contradicting his written statements to the FBI in 1971.

In addition, Carr was also confused about the larger picture; as he reverts to the official FBI documents regarding the transport of the back chutes and does not fully confirm Cossey’s version of how they got to Sea-Tac.

“The chutes were secured through NWA’s Seattle flight operations. The flight ops manager called an individual from Pacific Aviation who in turn called an individual he knew who had two back packs. This person put the two back packs in a cab and the cab driver delivered them to Boeing Field and then onto Sea-Tac by private car. (12. 17. 07)

Again Carr straddles the fence and seems to waver:

“Yes we have the serial numbers and interviewed the rigger. One chute was returned to its owner, two were never found and one is in evidence.” (1. 1. 08)

Yet, Cossey told me that his not-used chute was not returned to him – that he was only paid for it by Northwest Airlines.

As for his analysis of the survivability of the jump, Cossey’s family says he changed his mind on that subject as well.

In the aftermath of the homicide investigation, Richard Bowyer, Coss’ former brother-in-law, told reporter Graham Johnson of KIRO news that in days immediately following the skyjacking Earl had told him that he thought Cooper had made it.

Along those lines, Geoffrey Gray also says that Cossey had claimed the jump was not too difficult. Geoff posted the following in his tribute to Cossey at his http://www.huntfordbcooper.com web site:

“During a time when many in the Bureau were convinced that Cooper never survived the jump, Cossey met with agents and told them the jump wasn’t as perilous as they thought. Cossey’s opinion was that Cooper could have survived the jump, even with minimal parachuting experience.”

In his remembrance, Geoffrey also confirmed that Cossey had told him in their one meeting that the FBI didn’t return the not-used parachute.

“We spoke about the parachutes he packed. He was upset the FBI never returned them.”

Lastly, my condolences to the Cossey family; and Coss, as the sky divers at the DZ often say: blue skies to you.

© 2013 Bruce A. Smith

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

Another look at the Cossey saga courtesy of Miss Vicki....

Interesting excerpts below from here: http://www.esquire.com/blogs/culture/db-cooper-parachute?click=news..........

.....according to the Bureau’s original Cooper case files, many of the lead agents hunting for the hijacker were convinced that Cooper was a master skydiver if he indeed pulled off the jump. Agents were so gung-ho on this theory they went through over 14,000 registration cards for skydivers in the Pacific Northwest. The Bureau even sent undercover agents to a skydiving contest across the border to Canada to look for suspects.
......

.......According to documents that outline his Bureau interviews, Cossey told agents that with only six or seven jumps with an instructor the hijacker could have landed safely in the forests of the Pacific Northwest.
.....

.... Cossey..... was also upset that after all these years, the FBI never returned to the chutes to him. He had packed them in his garage, he told me, manufacturing each of the chutes from spare parts and military surplus.
......

Read more: The Man Who Believed in D.B. Cooper - Esquire
Follow us: @Esquiremag on Twitter | Esquire on Facebook
Visit us at Esquire.com


You know, I don't begrudge Geoffrey Gray at all -- He seems like a nice guy and I enjoyed his book. I actually wish he'd gone into even more detail in his book on the case files, and I'd buy a follow-up.

That said, I'm kind of seeing Bruce's point on this one....I mean I can see, sort of, how they can justify a "citizen's sleuth team" - (even though I wonder about a couple of the team's conclusions - I still appreciate all of their efforts, time, and that they published their work for the rest of us) - but just how does one get special dispensation to pore over the FBI files in order to write a book? Did he go through FOIA channels or did someone slip him in through the back door?

Good for him that he was able to gain access -- if you can get it, go for it -- but it is one of those curious things about this case that make you go hmmmmm.

In other words, FBI...release all of the files for the rest of us peons.

LOL...we might not solve the case, and the chance of conviction is slim to none even if we did, but you could keep this forum going for another 12 years.
Laughing even louder.... on second thought.... that might not be a good argument to make...

Quote

Wow. Geoffrey is crafting a major spin job here. Cossey fiercely denounced DB Cooper in our conversations. He loudly and insistently told me that Cooper was a no-pull and "augured" into the ground.

Now, Geoff is trying to have us believe that Cossey believed in DB? Whew.

The Revision of Norjak- right in fornt of our eyes.

[smokin99 0]

Quote

In addition, Carr was also confused about the larger picture; as he reverts to the official FBI documents regarding the transport of the back chutes and does not fully confirm Cossey’s version of how they got to Sea-Tac.

“The chutes were secured through NWA’s Seattle flight operations. The flight ops manager called an individual from Pacific Aviation who in turn called an individual he knew who had two back packs. This person put the two back packs in a cab and the cab driver delivered them to Boeing Field and then onto Sea-Tac by private car. (12. 17. 07)

Again Carr straddles the fence and seems to waver:

“Yes we have the serial numbers and interviewed the rigger. One chute was returned to its owner, two were never found and one is in evidence.” (1. 1. 08)

Are you sure Carr reverted back to the FBI documents? Both posts that I quoted above are dated before the posts that reference the chutes as coming from Cossey.
I think Carr mentioned that he was reading from the files originally when he made the above posts. And the post reads as if the rigger and owner are different people. After Carr talked with Cossey is when Carr's stance on the chutes changed. See dates.

That is why I originally copied those posts - to point out the different versions coming from Carr. So many questions.....
Why did Carr go with a 38 year old memory as opposed to the written record in front of him?
Was the documentation so screwed up that he just didn't trust it?
Did Mr. Cossey convince him by virtue of his personality?
Were more than two back chutes delivered to the airport?
If so, where are those chutes if Cossey didn't get them back?
Did Geoffrey Gray know about Hayden's chutes by the time he talked with Cossey?
Did he ask Cossey about the discrepancy? No it might not matter in the long run who provided the chutes -- it seems pretty clear that Cossey packed them regardless of ownership. But it does speak to the consistency and integrity of the investigation. It's just another WTF moment in a case full of them.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[skyjack71 0]

Quote

No it might not matter in the long run who provided the chutes -- it seems pretty clear that Cossey packed them regardless of ownership. But it does speak to the consistency and integrity of the investigation. It's just another WTF moment in a case full of them.

What I have said for YRS!

Glad others have seen and pointed out some of the discrepancies I have hear, read and been told about for 17 yrs.

I have correspondense and emails from Cossey and others, but 17 yrs of research is a LOT.
So I try to keep it all in my head - and this 73 yr brain is NOT what it used to be.

Until 7 yrs ago -I made HARD Copies of everything, but that needs to be dug out of storage and gone thru - keeping only things that came from others and not things I wrote. Someone else will have to do that - I have better things to do.

Anyone want to buy a storage room of papers and research?

Copyright 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 2013, 2014, 2015 by Jo Weber

[georger 197]

Did he ask Cossey about the discrepancy? No it might not matter in the long run who provided the chutes -- it seems pretty clear that Cossey packed them regardless of ownership. But it does speak to the consistency and integrity of the investigation. It's just another WTF moment in a case full of them.

Quote

_______________________________________________



and, all of the chutes provided Cooper were nylon and
not silk, as testified to by ALL owners/packers.

Its very clear to me Blevins has been creeping up to
calling Cossey a "liar", the same tactics employed with
Marla etal. Then he can claim Cossey lied about one
thing, so he lied about everything including "silk".

I wonder what Gray's take on the Amboy chute is?
Silk or Nylon. I will ask him next we talk ...

[smokin99 0]

Snowmman brought up an interesting point about getting the chutes from two different places -- basically the guy providing the chest packs knew nothing about the guy providing the back packs.... this explains why they provided chest rigs that were unusable, in that neither could attach to either of the back rigs.

So based on the above ...... whuffo question time........

The front chute was a reserve - meaning it could be activated if the back chute doesn't work, correct? The pictures I'm seeing look like it doesn't have a harness like the back chute does. Is that correct? Are there any straps or is the only attachment by hooking it to the back chute?

So..... if both chest rigs were essentially useless for jumping out of an airplane since they can't be attached to the back chute or the jumper, why do some make a big deal out of the fact that the dummy chute was gone in Reno and that this somehow speaks to his knowledge/experience or lack thereof?

Seems like if it's not usable, it's a moot point and you can't really draw any inferences about anything from the dummy chute.

I'm not a jumper, but I think that I would be able to figure out that I needed a little more security then just holding on to it. It's useless, I toss it.

And if i was experienced, I imagine that I would be thinking that they were trying to pull a fast one on me.
That ticks me off, I toss it.

Either way -- I'm not using it as chute cause I can't use it as a chute. End of mystery.

Help me out, jumpers. What am i missing here?

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[georger 197]

Quote

Snowmman brought up an interesting point about getting the chutes from two different places -- basically the guy providing the chest packs knew nothing about the guy providing the back packs.... this explains why they provided chest rigs that were unusable, in that neither could attach to either of the back rigs.

So based on the above ...... whuffo question time........

The front chute was a reserve - meaning it could be activated if the back chute doesn't work, correct? The pictures I'm seeing look like it doesn't have a harness like the back chute does. Is that correct? Are there any straps or is the only attachment by hooking it to the back chute?

So..... if both chest rigs were essentially useless for jumping out of an airplane since they can't be attached to the back chute or the jumper, why do some make a big deal out of the fact that the dummy chute was gone in Reno and that this somehow speaks to his knowledge/experience or lack thereof?

Seems like if it's not usable, it's a moot point and you can't really draw any inferences about anything from the dummy chute.

I'm not a jumper, but I think that I would be able to figure out that I needed a little more security then just holding on to it. It's useless, I toss it.

And if i was experienced, I imagine that I would be thinking that they were trying to pull a fast one on me.
That ticks me off, I toss it.

Either way -- I'm not using it as chute cause I can't use it as a chute. End of mystery.

Help me out, jumpers. What am i missing here?

You hit the nail on the head if understand the
previous discussion about attaching one rig to the
other etc. I think (stress, think) that very question
was brought up years ago, and no firm conclusions
could be made... leading some to conjecture if Cooper
brought along connectors etc (in the brown paper
bag)?

Why would it matter if one was a dud if both are
"duds" for whatever reason!

Nice work!

Im pretty sure 377 will remember this very dilemma
coming up before ...

Its just one more instance where people seemed to
be rushing to judgement in favor of one bias vs
another... and I think to some extent that is one
dilemma Cossey got caught in etc ...

[Robert99 37]

Quote

Snowmman brought up an interesting point about getting the chutes from two different places -- basically the guy providing the chest packs knew nothing about the guy providing the back packs.... this explains why they provided chest rigs that were unusable, in that neither could attach to either of the back rigs.

So based on the above ...... whuffo question time........

The front chute was a reserve - meaning it could be activated if the back chute doesn't work, correct? The pictures I'm seeing look like it doesn't have a harness like the back chute does. Is that correct? Are there any straps or is the only attachment by hooking it to the back chute?

So..... if both chest rigs were essentially useless for jumping out of an airplane since they can't be attached to the back chute or the jumper, why do some make a big deal out of the fact that the dummy chute was gone in Reno and that this somehow speaks to his knowledge/experience or lack thereof?

Seems like if it's not usable, it's a moot point and you can't really draw any inferences about anything from the dummy chute.

I'm not a jumper, but I think that I would be able to figure out that I needed a little more security then just holding on to it. It's useless, I toss it.

And if i was experienced, I imagine that I would be thinking that they were trying to pull a fast one on me.
That ticks me off, I toss it.

Either way -- I'm not using it as chute cause I can't use it as a chute. End of mystery.

Help me out, jumpers. What am i missing here?

You aren't missing anything. The dummy chute was worthless for jumping. But if Cooper attached that chute to the front of his back pack harness by some jury rigged means, then it would increase his chances of not finding the already oddly located right side rip cord on a very dark night. Basically, it would add to the already high probability that Cooper was a no pull.

[BruceSmith 3]

Quote

Quote

In addition, Carr was also confused about the larger picture; as he reverts to the official FBI documents regarding the transport of the back chutes and does not fully confirm Cossey’s version of how they got to Sea-Tac.

“The chutes were secured through NWA’s Seattle flight operations. The flight ops manager called an individual from Pacific Aviation who in turn called an individual he knew who had two back packs. This person put the two back packs in a cab and the cab driver delivered them to Boeing Field and then onto Sea-Tac by private car. (12. 17. 07)

Again Carr straddles the fence and seems to waver:

“Yes we have the serial numbers and interviewed the rigger. One chute was returned to its owner, two were never found and one is in evidence.” (1. 1. 08)

Are you sure Carr reverted back to the FBI documents? Both posts that I quoted above are dated before the posts that reference the chutes as coming from Cossey.
I think Carr mentioned that he was reading from the files originally when he made the above posts. And the post reads as if the rigger and owner are different people. After Carr talked with Cossey is when Carr's stance on the chutes changed. See dates.

That is why I originally copied those posts - to point out the different versions coming from Carr. So many questions.....
Why did Carr go with a 38 year old memory as opposed to the written record in front of him?
Was the documentation so screwed up that he just didn't trust it?
Did Mr. Cossey convince him by virtue of his personality?
Were more than two back chutes delivered to the airport?
If so, where are those chutes if Cossey didn't get them back?
Did Geoffrey Gray know about Hayden's chutes by the time he talked with Cossey?
Did he ask Cossey about the discrepancy? No it might not matter in the long run who provided the chutes -- it seems pretty clear that Cossey packed them regardless of ownership. But it does speak to the consistency and integrity of the investigation. It's just another WTF moment in a case full of them.

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Excellent analysis, Smoke. I'll have to look more closely at the dates. Regardless, the essential questions are the inconsistency and apparant deceit.

What game was Cossey playing and why?

[georger 197]

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Excellent analysis, Smoke. I'll have to look more closely at the dates. Regardless, the essential questions are the inconsistency and apparant deceit.

WHat game was Cossey playing and why?

Dont mistake deceit with someone not wanting to talk
about it at all and/or not wanting to talk to you about
it with fifty others waiting in line for confession, papers
to grade, lesson plans to submit, committee meetings
to attend, parent conferences, etc etc etc, kids and
wife to care for, skydiving lessons, chute packing, and
a million other things that must get done and done
right vs you who has a ton of free time on their hands
and no real responsibilities except to run around and
piss people off looking for a story?! Dont take it
personally!

My guess is: all we have seen is the tip of the iceberg.
And I have sound basis for saying that ...

[BruceSmith 3]

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Excellent analysis, Smoke. I'll have to look more closely at the dates. Regardless, the essential questions are the inconsistency and apparant deceit.

WHat game was Cossey playing and why?

Dont mistake deceit with someone not wanting to talk
about it at all and/or not wanting to talk to you about
it with fifty others waiting in line for confession, papers
to grade, lesson plans to submit, committee meetings
to attend, parent conferences, etc etc etc, kids and
wife to care for, skydiving lessons, chute packing, and
a million other things that must get done and done
right vs you who has a ton of free time on their hands
and no real responsibilities except to run around and
piss people off looking for a story?! Dont take it
personally!

My guess is: all we have seen is the tip of the iceberg.
And I have sound basis for saying that ...

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There is no question in my mind that Earl Cossey lied to me.

I just don't know why, but I can see how it served a poltical purpose of protecting the FBI's public image and discrediting the guy who beat the system.

[smokin99 0]

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.... Regardless, the essential questions are the inconsistency and apparant deceit.

WHat game was Cossey playing and why?

I'm just not wanting to think it is as cut and dried as 'Cossey lied". i guess i just don't get why he would deliberately lie. In all ways that would concern the investigation / the media / as an expert witness, Cossey was more relevant to the case than the owner. So there was no reason to lie. All the FBI had to do is go and ask Mr Hayden questions about the chute and he would no doubt quickly tell them that they needed to call Cossey.

The possibility of more than one set of chutes has been mentioned.
Or maybe, his perception is I put the chute together. That's my chute. Perhaps the media and subsequent agents assumed that the chutes came directly from Cossey and, over time, Cossey just quit correcting them or providing all of the details.
Or maybe over time his memories just got mixed up.It happens. We laugh about anglers whose fish keep getting bigger with each re-telling.
Or maybe it's all of the above.

Since Cossey packed it, if his description of the chute as told to the FBI is accurate, then I'm inclined to give him a pass. That he didn't actually send the chutes does not take away from his knowledge, qualifications, or from being the resident expert on Cooper chute questions.
I tend to think the onus is on the FBI to keep the stories straight on something that seems as clear cut as this. But that's just me. I could be wrong.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[BruceSmith 3]

...a million other things that must get done and done right vs you who has a ton of free time on their hands and no real responsibilities except to run around and piss people off looking for a story?!

...

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Your disrespect towards me Georger is beginning to piss me off.

• Quote

[smokin99 0]

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There is no question in my mind that Earl Cossey lied to me.

I just don't know why, but I can see how it served a poltical purpose of protecting the FBI's public image and discrediting the guy who beat the system.

Well there's that...

But if you read articles of the day, Cossey was not always advocating the position that Cooper didn't make it. He even said that it wouldn't require someone with a lot of experience.
As for protecting the image and discrediting the guy who beat the system - that hasn't worked out too well for them. They obviously need to go to plan B.

but....A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.....Winston Churchill

[MeyerLouie 5]

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Your search for RobertMBlevins in posts made by georger returned 1126 results in 0.142s.
Your search for skyjack71 in posts made by georger returned 759 results in 0.157s.

Your search for RobertMBlevins in posts made by MeyerLouie returned 155 results in 0.127s.
Your search for skyjack71 in posts made by MeyerLouie returned 49 results in 0.378s.

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My search for Amazon in posts made with any intelligence 0 returned 0 results in 0.000s -- whatever the hell "s" means. My numbers seem a little down -- I'll have to get on it! So, I guess this means you're a Blevins fan -- he could use one. MeyerLouie

I am a fan of adult discourse... which was again lacking in the post you just made.

MOMMIE HE TOUCHED ME AGAIN....

Sorry at some point little boys are supposed to grow the fuck up.

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Hey Amazon,

"MOMMIE HE TOUCHED ME AGAIN" doesn't sound much like adult discourse to me, not to mention the f*** word. If you're going to accuse someone of not acting like an adult, then you shouldn't act like a child yourself while you admonish someone else for acting childish. Same with the posts tally you did earlier -- you accused some of us of being bean counters, but in so doing, you were bean counting. A bit hypocritical, wouldn't you say, Dr. Amazon?

MeyerLouie

[georger 197]

the guy who beat the system.

[MeyerLouie 5]

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Why do I get the feeling Knoss and georger and MeyerLouie would be far happier over in the Speakers Corner with their fellow travelers and like minded "I'm rubber you're glue" that passes for intelligence there.

__________________________________________________

Let's see now, when I think of someone who is 'intelligent,' who's the first person that pops into my mind? Amazon, of course. Actually, the exact opposite, Mr. Amazon -- you talk like someone who hangs out a biker bar -- a little rough around the edges, Tough Guy.

MeyerLouie

[MeyerLouie 5]

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"You know, I don't begrudge Geoffrey Gray at all -- He seems like a nice guy and I enjoyed his book. I actually wish he'd gone into even more detail in his book on the case files, and I'd buy a follow-up."

Absolutely. But if he wrote what he believes he would get sued. Anybody who comes close to speaking the truth will find trouble. Only fabricators are allowed to act as truthsayers. Truthsayers are declared fabricators. Everything is upside down and backwards. It was planned to be that way.

Have you discussed this with the walrus.... goo goo ga goob????

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"Goo goo ga goob?" And you are criticizing me for not acting like an adult here? ........

MeyerLouie